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Old 04-01-2016, 12:26 AM   #113
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Here's the killer. I worked at a Dodge dealership until recently and I'm tired of seeing posts arguing price points. Realistically, of all the hellcat owners...how many paid anywhere near MSRP?! Limited numbers for both MY 15 and 16 have driven prices through the roof. We sold a hellcat challenger for $78k. I know lest than 10% of hellcat owners got them at or near MSRP. The ZL1 wasn't nearly as difficult to purchase. I hate seeing arguments that start with the hellcat is only $60k and you get all that performance...it's a bunch of smoke masking the flames of regret. The TRUTH is the hellcat costs on average somewhere around $70k because that's what people are paying. I bout my 2012 ZL1 #1158 at MSRP on May 24, 2012...fresh off the press. So I imagine the 17 ZL1 will find itself in my garage in the same fashion. So, back to my point...for the money there is no comparison between the Hellcat and the ZL1.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:15 AM   #114
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Stock rubber zl1 all day.

On DR will be a drivers race.

As for some who say a stock hellcat runs with a zo6 they are on crack. The cat would have hidden mods or the zo6 is a manual with bad driving.
The hp to weight isn't even close. The zo6 has gone mid to low 10s 100% stock on stock tires. Truly stock hellcats can hit high tens with DR. It's honestly a closer race to the c6 zo6 looking at times over the years and trap speeds. Obviously it takes a gifted driver but bottom 11s and actually a 10.9 has been run with a stock c6 zo6. Traps into the 120s.

Anyone who honestly thinks a hellcat runs neck and neck with a zo6 all things equal is a fool. Of course anything can happen on the street or track with such high hp and traction issues...
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:26 AM   #115
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Stock rubber zl1 all day.

On DR will be a drivers race.

As for some who say a stock hellcat runs with a zo6 they are on crack. The cat would have hidden mods or the zo6 is a manual with bad driving.
The hp to weight isn't even close. The zo6 has gone mid to low 10s 100% stock on stock tires. Truly stock hellcats can hit high tens with DR. It's honestly a closer race to the c6 zo6 looking at times over the years and trap speeds. Obviously it takes a gifted driver but bottom 11s and actually a 10.9 has been run with a stock c6 zo6. Traps into the 120s.


Anyone who honestly thinks a hellcat runs neck and neck with a zo6 all things equal is a fool. Of course anything can happen on the street or track with such high hp and traction issues...
Really? You actually think a 100% bone stock as delivered Z06 runs low 10s. Was the track downhill at negative -2000 da, sprayed with super glue, and had an 80-mph wind pushing the car down the track? Do you have any idea what it takes to run low 10s? Don't believe everything you read from either camp. If you want to compare a Dodge to the Z06 use the Viper ACR.
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:35 AM   #116
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They can build them, they just spend more time by the side of the road than others.
Not according to the study posted above. They are way higher than Ford, and only 4 problems behind chevy.


What I love about these studies are the fact they they don't real what the problems are. If I had my choice, I would be happy to drive a car that is lower on the list with a bullet proof drivetrian or major components that are reliable, but yet has a low rating because the radio or bluetooth suck.

Seems like most of the complaints you here about with cars these days is how they can't connect their Iphone or some crap like that instead of a real issue.
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:11 AM   #117
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Really? You actually think a 100% bone stock as delivered Z06 runs low 10s. Was the track downhill at negative -2000 da, sprayed with super glue, and had an 80-mph wind pushing the car down the track? Do you have any idea what it takes to run low 10s? Don't believe everything you read from either camp. If you want to compare a Dodge to the Z06 use the Viper ACR.
Yeah I believe it. Ranger was well documented running a c6 zo6 bone stock to 11.0 stock tire and 10.9 with DR. 100% legit. Someone else ran 10.9 stock as well.

A 400 lb heavier car with another 150 hp can hit mid to low 10s.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qsnQxxVzbAo

10.4@ 132. 10.3 with DR.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ijdRyRiygoE

10.3@131 stock with tire.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_-6xmOGu4w

10.4 @ 134 stock and stock tires.

Found 3 in a 5 minute YouTube search. They all lying ? It's possible I guess...but I don't see why not given 650hp and 3500lbs.

My point was those saying a stock hellcat runs with that is wrong.

Btw I said mid to low 10s
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:12 AM   #118
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Not according to the study posted above. They are way higher than Ford, and only 4 problems behind chevy.


What I love about these studies are the fact they they don't real what the problems are. If I had my choice, I would be happy to drive a car that is lower on the list with a bullet proof drivetrian or major components that are reliable, but yet has a low rating because the radio or bluetooth suck.

Seems like most of the complaints you here about with cars these days is how they can't connect their Iphone or some crap like that instead of a real issue.
Dodge had been at the bottom of the list for years.
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Old 04-01-2016, 08:54 AM   #119
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Keep in mind. Hellcat has 750 at the crank. Not 707. 750 vs 640.
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:06 AM   #120
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Yes, FCA advertises it at 707hp but the stock auto Hellcats have been dyno'ed anywhere from 600-630 RWHP. So, if one uses a 20% parasitic power loss crank to wheels - crank comes in around 750hp......yeah, I know fuzzy math but there is credence to the fact that these are pushing more than their advertised 707hp.

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Old 04-01-2016, 09:08 AM   #121
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So the SAE certification is bogus?
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:11 AM   #122
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Yes, FCA advertises it at 707hp but the stock auto Hellcats have been dyno'ed anywhere from 600-630 RWHP. So, if one uses a 20% parasitic power loss crank to wheels - crank comes in around 750hp......yeah, I know fuzzy math but there is credence to the fact that these are pushing more than their advertised 707hp.

.
Okay...But the same could be said about the Camaro SS dyno numbers. But we all tend to stick to the SAE ratings because all dynamometers, and conditions are different.

Otherwise...the same sort of math could suggest that stock Camaro SSs are actually producing 500-515hp.
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:13 AM   #123
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So the SAE certification is bogus?
Need to ask FCA.
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:13 AM   #124
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Okay...But the same could be said about the Camaro SS dyno numbers. But we all tend to stick to the SAE ratings because all dynamometers, and conditions are different.

Otherwise...the same sort of math could suggest that stock Camaro SSs are actually producing 500-515hp.
Bingo, either it's all a conspiracy by all the automakers or chassis dynos don't tell the real story. But track times definitely do....

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Old 04-01-2016, 09:15 AM   #125
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20% loss is way to high, today we see more like 10% ????

if we split the difference in the range posted above, to 615Rwhp, drive loss = 13%, which seems very probable. 20% loss ...NO WAY.

Camaro is seeing about 11% loss.
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:16 AM   #126
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Need to ask FCA.
And you need to stop using chassis dyno numbers as the holy grail. What happens if you use 10 or 12%? Much closer to what is advertised right?
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