[Nostalgic1]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You gotta ask yourself if you're justifying your decision to buy a 15 1LE.

Seems like jerky thing to say. What's the point of attacking a fellow Camaro owner again?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by mt3130

Agree with everything you said.

GM has its work cut out trying to get Cadillac to be seen as a competitor to the German brands. The cars falling under the Chevy brand have an even tougher time making that claim, even if the performance is on par with the best the Germans have to offer.

We know that the SS is on par with an M4. We also know that the average person would choose to buy a BMW 328 or 428 over a Camaro SS if given $45k.

I agree. For most folks that have 40-50k to spend, they typically want that high-line brand image that makes them feel good about themselves. They don't actually care how the car performs and some don't even know if they have a 4 cylinder turbo or a V6 under the hood. They are mainly focused on making a statement just like fancy clothes, shoes, jewelry, etc. However, for the true performance car enthusiasts who measure value based on price vs. performance/driving experience above status/image the Camaro represents a fantastic value. The Camaro gets to benefit from the ATS and the Corvette programs and as a result produces a performance sports coupe that now competes with higher end cars. I actually feel very lucky to be able to own a car like this at its price point.

[Nuked]

I guess you could paint me into the picture of a non-brand loyal buyer who is deciding between the Camaro, Mustang GT and to a lesser extent the Challenger SP. Biggest thing for me right now is the cost. Yes, I can afford all 3, but I would rather not spend my max budget (2ss w/ Mag Ride and NPP) vs the low end of my budget the GT Prem PP.

I get all the differences between the two above and yes the Camaro offers more but that also comes with a cost. The biggest thing I am debating is just how much more is the Camaro, optioned the way I want, worth it over the GT?

[Razzaa]

Originally Posted by Nuked

I guess you could paint me into the picture of a non-brand loyal buyer who is deciding between the Camaro, Mustang GT and to a lesser extent the Challenger SP. Biggest thing for me right now is the cost. Yes, I can afford all 3, but I would rather not spend my max budget (2ss w/ Mag Ride and NPP) vs the low end of my budget the GT Prem PP.

I get all the differences between the two above and yes the Camaro offers more but that also comes with a cost. The biggest thing I am debating is just how much more is the Camaro, optioned the way I want, worth it over the GT?

I was in the same boat as you are. I test drove all 3 before making my decision. I drove the Camaro last. It was exactly what I was looking for. I great all around performance car. Where I am from the GT is only a couple grand cheaper and the SP is roughly the same price as the Camaro. It was a no brainer for me. Everyone has different wants and needs though. Ultimately it is your decision.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Nuked

I guess you could paint me into the picture of a non-brand loyal buyer who is deciding between the Camaro, Mustang GT and to a lesser extent the Challenger SP. Biggest thing for me right now is the cost. Yes, I can afford all 3, but I would rather not spend my max budget (2ss w/ Mag Ride and NPP) vs the low end of my budget the GT Prem PP.

I get all the differences between the two above and yes the Camaro offers more but that also comes with a cost. The biggest thing I am debating is just how much more is the Camaro, optioned the way I want, worth it over the GT?

I hear you. I think it comes down to how passionate and how much of an enthusiast you are in order to justify value for these cars. Let's face it, from financial perspective it doesn't make sense to buy any new car. The right financial decision would be to buy a used Toytoa Corolla for $8k and drive it until the wheels fall off.

So, you have to ask yourself if you will really appreciate what the Camaro has to offer at its price point. If you enthusiastic enough, you will value tech like MRC and electronically controlled exhaust values that come with quad tipped NPP. An enthusiast prefers the rev-matching capability of the Tremec M6 transmission or the quicker shifting and the better gear ratios you get out of the A8 transmission. Some enthusiasts prefer how the direct injected LT1 in SS delivers its power spread more evenly across the rpm range vs how the coyote prefers to rev and make more power up top. Then we start to explore the chassis differences, high use of aluminum, associated weight savings and the increase in performance and handling you get as a result. The list for an enthusiast can go on and on...

Ideally I would want a new stingray corvette but it is over my budget and I needed the emergency back seats for the kids, however when I consider that my Camaro gets me about 95% of the performance and overall driving experience as the vette it makes the Camaro a steal. If I compare it to that BMW M4, I think the Camaro is a steal. Value is relative to what you are comparing it to. If I compare the Camaro to a mustang is seems expensive. But if I compare to other cars with its performance, magride, NPP, etc. it seems cheap. Best of luck...

[Posaune]

So somehow, in the context of a thread about sales, we focus on SS and how it competes against a BMW. SS isn't really where the sales are hurting, it is with the LT trim.

But lets keep pretending the Camaro SS will ever be thought of as on par with the BMW M4.

[Raven87]

I stumbled across this excellent post from member Number 3 last December in a thread about trunk space.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Completely missing the point.

I have an SS. I had desperately hoped GM would make a truly great coupe that would make me want to get rid of the SS. That doesn't mean driving to Florida with 4 adults. It means heading out to dinner or a quick trip you COULD get 4 adults in the car. In the Gen5 you could, did it many times. In a Gen6? That was a trade off GM publicly stated they made.

For a lot of people this won't matter. For me and some others it will.

And to repeat myself again, my concern is that GM took tooo much practicality from the car. By their own admission and publicized data, they made the trunk MUCH smaller, they made the rear seat tighter.

For most of the people that care enough about cars and particularly the Camaro and regularly come to this awesome website, that likely won't matter. But for some it will.

Do I think the Camaro gets back to 90,000 maybe 100,000 units per year once production is under way and the cool factor wears off? Yes.

Do I think it can sell 150,000 units like the Mustang has? Not really sure about that.

And the FEAR? The car sells like the 2000 to 2002 did. Awesome V8 sales, lackluster V6 sales annnnnnnnnd it's gone again.

My point for two plus years has been make a GREAT coupe first and then a Camaro. What they did was make a GREAT Camaro first and some things, important to me and some others, were traded away.

And this isn't an argument. GM did this, told us they did this, so the fact the car is smaller in the trunk and rear seat isn't up for debate. It's just a matter of whether that impacts sales or not. For me? It doesn't add up as a DD. Smaller Trunk, Smaller Rear Seat, Crappy visibility. All things that could have been made better on the Gen6 but weren't. Those 3 things are more important to me than weighing less than a Mustang.

And that, my friends, is one guys opinion.

I believe he correctly listed some of the major reasons of concern that many of us share AND that appear to have come true. And probably are the primary reasons for the low sales numbers of the 6G Camaro.

The biggest? That GM took too much of the practicality out of the car. I think there is a LOT of truth to that because the LT buyers buy more on practicality than the SS buyers do and LT sales are down a lot. SS buyers usually look for performance data first and practicality second and LT buyers are often more the opposite.

Everyone knows a RWD two door sports car is far from practical but when the manufacture reduces the practicality even more it has to hurt sales. Reduce visibility (that was already challenged), reduce interior space, reduce trunk capacity (with an even smaller opening), and raise prices? What do you think will happen? Sure, the car will be lighter. But at what cost?

For a big part of the people looking to buy (or having bought) a new sports coupe and comparison shopped the Challenger, the Mustang, and the new 6G Camaro, the Camaro has the least amount of practicality of the three and yet costs more than the other two.

That certainly cannot help sales, especially in the LT models.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Posaune

So somehow, in the context of a thread about sales, we focus on SS and how it competes against a BMW. SS isn't really where the sales are hurting, it is with the LT trim.

But lets keep pretending the Camaro SS will ever be thought of as on par with the BMW M4.

I think the people pretending are the ones that think a Chevy Camaro is ever going to be the "hey I made it" status symbol that a BMW is. Sure those looking at pure performance may cross shop but in general no one looking for a bimmer badge on his or her car is also looking at a Chevy. They likely came from a Ford or Chevy and are "moving up in the world".

Hey Bob I hear you got the Mega Bucks account. Yeah Dan I finally made it I'm gonna go buy a Chevy!

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Thor142

I think the people pretending are the ones that think a Chevy Camaro is ever going to be the "hey I made it" status symbol that a BMW is. Sure those looking at pure performance may cross shop but in general no one looking for a bimmer badge on his or her car is also looking at a Chevy. They likely came from a Ford or Chevy and are "moving up in the world".

Hey Bob I hear you got the Mega Bucks account. Yeah Dan I finally made it I'm gonna go buy a Chevy!

I have made some comparisons to the BMW just like the MotorTrend folks. However, my comparison is specifically in regards to the "driving experience" that the Camaro SS can deliver when compared to a BMW M4 or Audi S5. If this were a social status competition to see who can spend more money on a car then BMW and Audi would win in my mind but if asked what car can deliver the best driving experience for the money between them then I would pick the Chevy Camaro SS.

The bottom line is the Chevy Camaro SS can get you the driving experience for $40k but if you need to stroke the ego that is gonna cost another $40k for the BMW.

[SayHelloToMyLittleFriend]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I have made some comparisons to the BMW just like the MotorTrend folks. However, my comparison is specifically in regards to the "driving experience" that the Camaro SS can deliver when compared to a BMW M4 or Audi S5. If this were a social status competition to see who can spend more money on a car then BMW and Audi would win in my mind but if asked what car can deliver the best driving experience for the money between them then I would pick the Chevy Camaro SS.

The bottom line is the Chevy Camaro SS can get you the driving experience for $40k but if you need to stroke the ego that is gonna cost another $40k for the BMW.

Amen! You my friend get what the GM folks are trying to do! I'm one of those people who refuse to by the "status symbol" cars even though I can. Instead, I just drive a Chevrolet Camaro and grin ear to ear when I smoke their "status" cars that cost twice as much!

[suzook]

Originally Posted by Thor142

I think the people pretending are the ones that think a Chevy Camaro is ever going to be the "hey I made it" status symbol that a BMW is. Sure those looking at pure performance may cross shop but in general no one looking for a bimmer badge on his or her car is also looking at a Chevy. They likely came from a Ford or Chevy and are "moving up in the world".

Hey Bob I hear you got the Mega Bucks account. Yeah Dan I finally made it I'm gonna go buy a Chevy!

I looked at both, no reason to buy the m4, its less car for the $. I can afford an m4 BTW. Just couldn't justify the price.

[HogsFan75]

Here is a pretty honest video from a guy that chose a new mustang over the 6th gen and why. Shocker, it didn't really come down to price.

Let the hate flow

[SayHelloToMyLittleFriend]

Originally Posted by HogsFan75

Here is a pretty honest video from a guy that chose a new mustang over the 6th gen and why. Shocker, it didn't really come down to price.

Let the hate flow

LOL! I Watch his YouTube Channel and he actually gives the Camaro a good review! Like he said for him it came down to how it looked. Same here... I prefer the looks of the Gen 6 Camaro over the new Mustang. Now let the hate flow for me. I'll be bashed because the new Camaro looks like the old one (only IMHO better) LOL!

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by HogsFan75

Here is a pretty honest video from a guy that chose a new mustang over the 6th gen and why. Shocker, it didn't really come down to price.

Let the hate flow

So, to summarize his video,

He has always been a Mustang person, dreamed of having one since he was a kid.
He thinks the Camaro is the better driving car in every way.
The Camaro costs a little more - possibly impacting sales.
Recommends the Camaro for those that don't have that "in your blood Mustang love".

So, pretty much saying what has been said for like 500 pages in this thread.

The Camaro is the better car and costs more. Yes, I think everyone here knows at this point.