[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Sound is only one facet here. But 'soul' or 'character' are at least in part recognition that a car can be a really neat thing in and of itself . . . and in the absence of "refinement". A flathead-powered Deuce coupe has soul in spades, on a level that Tesla can't even begin to comprehend.

Yep. Number 3 obviously cannot comprehend that himself. And that’s his opinion, but his nonsense doesn’t fly.

People will buy electric Porsches for the name. The Taycan can impress him all day, it doesn’t do crap for me. Now, swap out the electric drivetrain for an AWD twin turbo flat 6 and 7 speed manual? Now you GOT something.

The sound of a flathead is just...... mmmmm.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Soulless ONLY if you need exhaust noise to give it soul. Otherwise EVs do and will have character. Just look at the Taycan and eTron. Wow.

Just to expand a bit, whatever character an EV manages to acquire isn't the kind of character I'd ever be looking for in a car.

Back in my early driving days, Cadillacs, Buicks, and Oldsmobiles had distinct character. But as luxury cars first and foremost, that wasn't the character I would have been looking for. It didn't (and still doesn't) reflect the way I see myself.

It's much the same for me now with EVs, including performance EVs. The things they're good at don't do very much for me, and the things that do mean more to me aren't the things that EVs are particularly catering to. Just a bad fit all around.


Norm

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 43Camaro

So I agree with almost everything you said, with one exception. I also have a model Y Dual Motor Tesla Sport in the family. The EV feels like crap to me and the actual engineering of the CAR (Nuts and Bolts, Suspension ETC) feels ten years behind. The Tech in the car is unbelievable, but I think you need to seperate the two when comparing. I'm also comparing the performance to my ZLE which might not be fair IMO.

As the EV matures they will build more driving experience back in closing the gap between the two platforms.

I agree that the fit and finish, chassis and suspension are the weak spots on the Tesla compared to more mature car companies. I also agree it is hard to compare a muscle car like the Camaro to a Tesla, apples and oranges but I think some are are trying to visualize what a performance EV Camaro would be like. Now that I have some experience with an EV powertrain it would be interesting to see that married to the excellent chassis and suspension of a Camaro.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Just to expand a bit, whatever character an EV manages to acquire isn't the kind of character I'd ever be looking for in a car.

Back in my early driving days, Cadillacs, Buicks, and Oldsmobiles had distinct character. But as luxury cars first and foremost, that wasn't the character I would have been looking for. It didn't (and still doesn't) reflect the way I see myself.

It's much the same for me now with EVs, including performance EVs. The things they're good at don't do very much for me, and the things that do mean more to me aren't the things that EVs are particularly catering to. Just a bad fit all around.


Norm

I'm now fan of EV, range and also having to sit and charge it.


Also, EV seem to cater to nerds, and yuppies. Not your muscle car crowd. Just seems an electric Camaro is bastardizing the muscle car.


I'll hold out as long as possible! I'd much rather have your 2008 GT and throw on a super charger than have an EV Camaro! btw I had a 2006 GT. For that time period those were quick cars for the money. Love that chassis.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 90503

I think though you overestimate the amount of $ this younger generation would be willing to pay to get the "performance" features you mention. A $57k price tag, then mods of tire, wheel, brake upgrades is a huge leap, not to mention the likelihood of having your track sessions show a gradual decline in lap times due to battery issues, instead of a gradual improvement in lap times with an ICE consistent power-train, and the learned skill of the driver to improve each session. The few split seconds of ECU, TC activity is unnoticeable to the ICE driver, and can even be shut off if desired.

The higher-priced EV could run a few laps and then just leave to claim low lap times, but I don't think too many would be happy spending that kind of money to go out and pose for the first one or two sessions.

On the street, the full time novelty and experience of running silent but deadly stop light to stop light , or passing cars might seal the deal for some, but they can have it. Hopefully they at least keep their hands on the steering wheel.

Yeah, Even though Tesla has a Track Mode I agree they have disadvantage on Track compared to ICE. The battery cooling systems are pretty good but tracks will need Superchargers installed to make it realistic.

EVs can still be fun on track though. Check out Randy Pobst driving this guys Tesla.

https://youtu.be/aywleQX5lyA

https://youtube.com/watch?v=aywleQX5lyA

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Part of the appeal of ICE power is if you're going to drive it to its capabilities you have to get your driving skills up to par as well. Getting more performance while your part in it is made less demanding may be exciting or even satisfying on a most basic level . . . but you could play a video game or replay a helmet-camera video of somebody else's hero quarter mile run and get almost as much out of those.



Which would make them a poor choice for enjoying an HPDE day. Too much power available at speeds that you're almost never going to be driving at (below about 45 mph) or under conditions where you can't come close to using it all anyway (in the corners). Yeah, I guess the nannies could be calibrated to suit those situations, but that'd beg the question of why have that much power in the lower speed ranges in the first place?



So easy even a caveman could do it . . . I get that there are times when it's nice to have enough torque on tap to not have to downshift manually or command an AT downshift, but what you're trying to claim as a good thing kind of flies in the face of driving in predictive fashion where you're driving to keep the engine running where adequate throttle response for the conditions of the moment exists. Stomping on impulse is reactive driving (how ATs want to be driven) and isn't nearly as smooth. Smooth driving is a good thing just about everywhere that isn't a dragstrip or possibly an autocross course.


Norm

It is definitely so easy a caveman can do it. It is depressing and impressive at the same time. One hand I am like this is ridiculous, the car is so easy to drive fast that anyone can hop in and run mid 11s consistently but on the other hand it is depressing since there is not much skill required anymore. No warming up the tires to get the launch right, no shifting at just the right time, etc. just plant your foot and hold on.

Now that 0-60 times really don’t matter anymore EV manufactures need to find ways to entertain future driving enthusiasts.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

It is definitely so easy a caveman can do it. It is depressing and impressive at the same time. One hand I am like this is ridiculous, the car is so easy to drive fast that anyone can hop in and run mid 11s consistently but on the other hand it is depressing since there is not much skill required anymore. No warming up the tires to get the launch right, no shifting at just the right time, etc. just plant your foot and hold on.

Now that 0-60 times really don’t matter anymore EV manufactures need to find ways to entertain future driving enthusiasts.

My dad had a 69 GTO. Told me you really had to baby it when launching or else you didn't hook and be all over the place.


These new cars have so many nannies in place. I got cheap tires on me (dealer installed before being sold I guess) and just don't hook as well. Went to an empty dead in road and did some launches with traction control off and in sport mode and was fish tailing some.

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

FYI I just read an article recently that the truck driver shortage could in turn cause fuel shortages sooner rather than later. Hopefully this would be a temporary issue.

This is not a temporary issue. The golden age of trucking really ended around when I got in during the 70s.
Its always been a tough business but rate cutting and the emergence of large fleets which barely pay enough to justify giving up flipping burgers created a scenario where its normal for 100% turnover in remarkably short periods.
I read an article describing what your quoting and I sort of laughed. I didnt actually "get out of trucking" I abandoned it while in my peak. Because they could no longer pay me enough to continue doing what I specialized in.
Living in NJ and hauling heavy oversized equipment around the north east is a stressful life. I enjoyed every minute.. almost... and the more difficult the challenge the more fun I had doing it.
But after a while bringing a 13 foot wide excavator into West New York at 7am running up towards the Lincoln tunnel at 75 feet long and 13 feet wide with a gross weight well over 100,000 lbs requires a certain amount of income to remain a fun challenge.
So at 48 with roughly 27 years of experience and half of that hauling OD I just walked away.
I used to have a dozen close friends who were in trucking. All the best of the best. All walked away.
So when the industry cries about driver shortage consider that all they need do is pay more and good drivers would be lined up. Good companies have no shortage. In many cases its competition. But the industry does not treat many of its employees well enough to keep them... by corporate policy.
Its really far more complicated than that but for the purpose of this thread that about says it from my perspective.
I think its comical these jack wagons would suggest a driver shortage as an excuse for a fuel shortage they already have planned for the summer...

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

This is not a temporary issue. The golden age of trucking really ended around when I got in during the 70s.
Its always been a tough business but rate cutting and the emergence of large fleets which barely pay enough to justify giving up flipping burgers created a scenario where its normal for 100% turnover in remarkably short periods.
I read an article describing what your quoting and I sort of laughed. I didnt actually "get out of trucking" I abandoned it while in my peak. Because they could no longer pay me enough to continue doing what I specialized in.
Living in NJ and hauling heavy oversized equipment around the north east is a stressful life. I enjoyed every minute.. almost... and the more difficult the challenge the more fun I had doing it.
But after a while bringing a 13 foot wide excavator into West New York at 7am running up towards the Lincoln tunnel at 75 feet long and 13 feet wide with a gross weight well over 100,000 lbs requires a certain amount of income to remain a fun challenge.
So at 48 with roughly 27 years of experience and half of that hauling OD I just walked away.
I used to have a dozen close friends who were in trucking. All the best of the best. All walked away.
So when the industry cries about driver shortage consider that all they need do is pay more and good drivers would be lined up. Good companies have no shortage. In many cases its competition. But the industry does not treat many of its employees well enough to keep them... by corporate policy.
Its really far more complicated than that but for the purpose of this thread that about says it from my perspective.
I think its comical these jack wagons would suggest a driver shortage as an excuse for a fuel shortage they already have planned for the summer...

I know in the restaurant and service industry they're blaming the expanded unemployment for not being able to find workers. However, what is the case for truck drivers? Did they suddenly just start quitting when covid hit and less of a demand?


I guess this explains why you seem to hear more about big rigs getting into accidents. Less experienced drivers.

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I know in the restaurant and service industry they're blaming the expanded unemployment for not being able to find workers. However, what is the case for truck drivers? Did they suddenly just start quitting when covid hit and less of a demand?


I guess this explains why you seem to hear more about big rigs getting into accidents. Less experienced drivers.

Yes I believe there have been issues with declining driver skills since the 80s when they first started with the CDL licensing. I knew of several great old timers who retired because they were afraid they couldnt pass a written test. Some of them couldnt read... but they sure as hell could drive.
For years now they have been filling seats with... recent immigrants. I used to feel a lot more comfortable around the big rigs on the interstate than I do now. I know there are still great drivers out there but Im betting they dont like what they see either.
The gasoline shortage article I read stated that lost demand for fuel caused drivers to move to companies shipping freight that was still in demand. I suppose that's legit. But hazmat tanker hauling pays a lot better than dry freight from Amazon. So if thats the case then increased demand for fuel will suck them right back without a moments delay.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

Yes I believe there have been issues with declining driver skills since the 80s when they first started with the CDL licensing. I knew of several great old timers who retired because they were afraid they couldnt pass a written test. Some of them couldnt read... but they sure as hell could drive.
For years now they have been filling seats with... recent immigrants. I used to feel a lot more comfortable around the big rigs on the interstate than I do now. I know there are still great drivers out there but Im betting they dont like what they see either.
The gasoline shortage article I read stated that lost demand for fuel caused drivers to move to companies shipping freight that was still in demand. I suppose that's legit. But hazmat tanker hauling pays a lot better than dry freight from Amazon. So if thats the case then increased demand for fuel will suck them right back without a moments delay.

My stepdad was a trucker from 1958-1990

The trucking industry is one where skills of operating a big rig safely is very dependent on people who know how to do many things at the same time with their full attention to everything.

I would not trust a trucker who could not float an Eaton-Fuller without using the clutch. There’s one situation where the automatic transmission is making it less safe for all of us on the highway

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I know in the restaurant and service industry they're blaming the expanded unemployment for not being able to find workers. However, what is the case for truck drivers? Did they suddenly just start quitting when covid hit and less of a demand?


I guess this explains why you seem to hear more about big rigs getting into accidents. Less experienced drivers.

I’m thinking it’s the need for more Amazon, FedEx, and UPS drivers. Of course I say that not knowing what the compensation differences may be.

[MR's 2SS]

I agree with both above. Anyone who cant shift a million times a day shouldnt be driving at all. (big trucks)
And yes the covid caused loss in demand for fuel while the mail order business brought new demand for drivers so they shifted.
But. Generally speaking a fuel delivery driver has higher qualifications and is handling hazmat as well as tanker which are both more demanding than a big box filled with little boxes. So if demand for fuel returns they will instantly return to their former higher paying jobs.

[RealG]

Truck driving is a dead industry it’s going to be replaced with autonomous sooner rather than later. Big companies need to get rid of cost and labor is cost. Truck drivers will be like the gas station attendants of the 50s. As far as the EV Camaro goes performance is what will rule the day. If EV starts smoking gas powered cars people will gravitate to the faster car. New muscle versus old muscle. Internal combustion versus gas. The faster more practical Will win.