[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Pupilbone

Really interesting post.

The first that (to me), went beyond the usual Camaro contrarian rhetoric, and made me pause. Thanks for that.

I realize talking about EVs on a Camaro forum is crazy but I have a different perspective after owning both. There are pros and cons for sure but once you drive a performance EV for a little bit you begin to realize how ancient ICE based vehicles appear. I am a bit Camaro and Corvette fan but when you drive an performance EV for a bit you can’t deny that ICE feels archaic. Don’t get me wrong, I love it but you can’t deny it. As a gear head I was surprised myself. I just couldn’t understand how I could not roast the tires on my Tesla when I first got it. I said there is no way it can pull this hard and not spin the tires. Then you start to learn how traction control is very different with electric motors vs. ice. ICE traction control is so much slower as the system has to detect wheel spin, then signal to the ECU, the ECU then signals to reduce power, pull timing, etc. and then add power and back and forth which is super slow in comparison to the digital control you get from an electric motor. ICE has launch modes, we talk about how fast 10 speed transmissions shift now, extra radiators to cool to keep it cool, all while we idle 650hp at a traffic light. It is hard to ignore how little drama is involved to drive fast in a performance EV by comparison. Many of us here will miss that drama but a younger generation won’t care.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

From a price perspective, a Tesla Model 3 Performance is about $57k now, which gets you Dual motors with about 480hp and tq, Track Mode, 20" wheels with Michelin PS4S tires and Brembo brakes and unleashes all the power from the dual motors and inverters. It will consistency do 0-60 in 3.0 sec flat and 11.3-11.5 sec in the 1/4 mile. If you like instant torque then it will keep a smile on your face as the power feels absolutely effortless. There is no waiting for torque to build in the rev range or waiting on the transmission to shift, etc.

Part of the appeal of ICE power is if you're going to drive it to its capabilities you have to get your driving skills up to par as well. Getting more performance while your part in it is made less demanding may be exciting or even satisfying on a most basic level . . . but you could play a video game or replay a helmet-camera video of somebody else's hero quarter mile run and get almost as much out of those.

They are an absolute beast down low until about 90mph, after that it still pull pretty good but the lack of gearing takes hold and high horsepower cars start pulling on it.

Which would make them a poor choice for enjoying an HPDE day. Too much power available at speeds that you're almost never going to be driving at (below about 45 mph) or under conditions where you can't come close to using it all anyway (in the corners). Yeah, I guess the nannies could be calibrated to suit those situations, but that'd beg the question of why have that much power in the lower speed ranges in the first place?

Passing power in the 30-50mph or 50-70mph it stupid fast. Since you don't have to wait on a transmission to shift and the torque curve is a square wave it is crazy responsive.

So easy even a caveman could do it . . . I get that there are times when it's nice to have enough torque on tap to not have to downshift manually or command an AT downshift, but what you're trying to claim as a good thing kind of flies in the face of driving in predictive fashion where you're driving to keep the engine running where adequate throttle response for the conditions of the moment exists. Stomping on impulse is reactive driving (how ATs want to be driven) and isn't nearly as smooth. Smooth driving is a good thing just about everywhere that isn't a dragstrip or possibly an autocross course.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

I love shifting. I drove trucks for 25 years with 13, 15 or 18 speed transmissions. I never thought of shifting as any kind of burden. Its fun and it helps make all the right noises.
Camaro in the 2016 and up variety are for me the best Camaros yet. The Alpha platform and materials are strong. The 455 HP base V-8 is stronger than almost all the most desirable big blocks in the classics. The 1LEs are literally track cars on the street. The 5th gen Z/28 even more so. These are the types of cars I have loved since I was maybe 5.

This ^^^ (minus the Class 8 experience).

I'm guessing you might remember the original Trans-Am race series.

If I found a reason to want an EV it would have zero to do with why I want a Camaro. It could possible share a spot but could never replace.

Not sure I could; certainly not the way EVs are currently configured. Of course being retired means that the daily commute reason for getting an EV no longer exists.

That even here the debate seems to be all or nothing indicates how the world is rolling into the near future.

As lightly as I can tip-toe around it, it's in the nature of being "progressive" to never be satisfied with compromise. Not even reasonable and well thought-out compromise.

At this point, we have some strongly in favor of EVs, some strongly against them, and some in the middle where EV acceptability "depends". Nothing wrong with that as long as there is toleration for different preferences.


Side note on electric karts: they sure are a lot of fun. Finally got to do that (there's an indoor facility in Cinnaminson on 130) and put down decent lap times (kept getting flagged to slow down coming to the end of the out lap when, hell, I was just getting warmed up).


Norm

[90503]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I realize talking about EVs on a Camaro forum is crazy but I have a different perspective after owning both. There are pros and cons for sure but once you drive a performance EV for a little bit you begin to realize how ancient ICE based vehicles appear. I am a bit Camaro and Corvette fan but when you drive an performance EV for a bit you can’t deny that ICE feels archaic. Don’t get me wrong, I love it but you can’t deny it. As a gear head I was surprised myself. I just couldn’t understand how I could not roast the tires on my Tesla when I first got it. I said there is no way it can pull this hard and not spin the tires. Then you start to learn how traction control is very different with electric motors vs. ice. ICE traction control is so much slower as the system has to detect wheel spin, then signal to the ECU, the ECU then signals to reduce power, pull timing, etc. and then add power and back and forth which is super slow in comparison to the digital control you get from an electric motor. ICE has launch modes, we talk about how fast 10 speed transmissions shift now, extra radiators to cool to keep it cool, all while we idle 650hp at a traffic light. It is hard to ignore how little drama is involved to drive fast in a performance EV by comparison. Many of us here will miss that drama but a younger generation won’t care.

I think though you overestimate the amount of $ this younger generation would be willing to pay to get the "performance" features you mention. A $57k price tag, then mods of tire, wheel, brake upgrades is a huge leap, not to mention the likelihood of having your track sessions show a gradual decline in lap times due to battery issues, instead of a gradual improvement in lap times with an ICE consistent power-train, and the learned skill of the driver to improve each session. The few split seconds of ECU, TC activity is unnoticeable to the ICE driver, and can even be shut off if desired.

The higher-priced EV could run a few laps and then just leave to claim low lap times, but I don't think too many would be happy spending that kind of money to go out and pose for the first one or two sessions.

On the street, the full time novelty and experience of running silent but deadly stop light to stop light , or passing cars might seal the deal for some, but they can have it. Hopefully they at least keep their hands on the steering wheel.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Most of the drivers out there are not enthusiasts like us and the will appreciate the lack of noise and the smoothness of the powertrain, over the air software updates and the fuel savings.

As you said, but I'd go a little further and say they're not driving enthusiasts. For that, you don't need OTA updates (and might not want them to begin with). Nor do you really need the tech if it's the driving that brings you into the world of performance, sports, and sporty cars.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 90503

On the street, the full time novelty and experience of running silent but deadly stop light to stop light , or passing cars might seal the deal for some, but they can have it.

Seen this a couple of times, most recently yesterday. A yellow Tesla was making fairly aggressive lane-change moves in single to two-lane traffic. I got around him when he made a bad lane choice but at his first opportunity to get around me he was on it like a fly on, well you know what. I was kind of hoping he'd try to follow me around the upcoming ramp (one I'm thoroughly familiar with), but that wasn't to be, he just had to blast a lane-splitting move to get past to show off the one thing he knew how to do with his car.


Norm

[90503]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Seen this a couple of times, most recently yesterday. A yellow Tesla was making fairly aggressive lane-change moves in single to two-lane traffic. I got around him when he made a bad lane choice but at his first opportunity to get around me he was on it like a fly on, well you know what. I was kind of hoping he'd try to follow me around the upcoming ramp (one I'm thoroughly familiar with), but that wasn't to be, he just had to blast a lane-splitting move to get past to show off the one thing he knew how to do with his car.


Norm

Same around here. It's an EV mad scramble to be the first in line and to actually drive behind another car is just not acceptable. That one performance feature available to any EV driver of every skill level must not go unused. It goes hand in hand with the tech-smug, smart phone, entitled, woke drivers who can't wait to have ICE cars get out of their way...lol

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 90503

That one performance feature available to any EV driver of every skill level

This is EXACTLY why I have no interest, no use, and pure disdain for electric appliances. They’re not even cars. Because everything from a $14,000 Kia to a $2m Bugatti will be as fast as a $2m Bugatti and that completely defeats the purpose of a car. They will all have the exact same character. Which is to say nothing. They’ll be void of everything that makes a car a car. It won’t matter if it’s a year 2030 model or a year 2100 model either. Electric is electric. Bland, soulless, uninteresting, boring, dead.

There’s a soul and a spirit in the put-put chugging of a 1910 Ford Model T 10 horsepower 4 cylinder a silky smooth power delivery of a 1938 Buick Straight 8, and the unmistakable sound of the greatest engine of them all, the GM/Chevy small block from 1955 through today.

I will never touch an electric car as long as I live. It’s infuriating and repulsive.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by Pupilbone

Really interesting post.

The first that (to me), went beyond the usual Camaro contrarian rhetoric, and made me pause. Thanks for that.

What people should realize is there's big investment dollars (we could debate it's legitimacy from a propagandized, debt inflated market...) pushing EVs. Some of these fellas posting have ties to the industry. Essentially, those posts are ads.

That's not to say EVs won't have good-fit owners. In, my area costs for an EV spitball out to be higher than that $30 increase easily.

Consider battery degradation. Capacity decreases can be hidden by the cars's programming lowering the no range cutoff voltage. Voltage curve decreases can't be hidden easily. Slow charges and occasional hard street pulls, shouldn't hurt much. Lots of fast charging, or track sessions would mean a ragged-out battery for the used buyer.

[43Camaro]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I realize talking about EVs on a Camaro forum is crazy but I have a different perspective after owning both. There are pros and cons for sure but once you drive a performance EV for a little bit you begin to realize how ancient ICE based vehicles appear. I am a bit Camaro and Corvette fan but when you drive an performance EV for a bit you can’t deny that ICE feels archaic. Don’t get me wrong, I love it but you can’t deny it. As a gear head I was surprised myself. I just couldn’t understand how I could not roast the tires on my Tesla when I first got it. I said there is no way it can pull this hard and not spin the tires. Then you start to learn how traction control is very different with electric motors vs. ice. ICE traction control is so much slower as the system has to detect wheel spin, then signal to the ECU, the ECU then signals to reduce power, pull timing, etc. and then add power and back and forth which is super slow in comparison to the digital control you get from an electric motor. ICE has launch modes, we talk about how fast 10 speed transmissions shift now, extra radiators to cool to keep it cool, all while we idle 650hp at a traffic light. It is hard to ignore how little drama is involved to drive fast in a performance EV by comparison. Many of us here will miss that drama but a younger generation won’t care.

So I agree with almost everything you said, with one exception. I also have a model Y Dual Motor Tesla Sport in the family. The EV feels like crap to me and the actual engineering of the CAR (Nuts and Bolts, Suspension ETC) feels ten years behind. The Tech in the car is unbelievable, but I think you need to seperate the two when comparing. I'm also comparing the performance to my ZLE which might not be fair IMO.

As the EV matures they will build more driving experience back in closing the gap between the two platforms.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

As you said, but I'd go a little further and say they're not driving enthusiasts. For that, you don't need OTA updates (and might not want them to begin with). Nor do you really need the tech if it's the driving that brings you into the world of performance, sports, and sporty cars.


Norm

GM does OTA and actually beat Tesla to it. It was just limited and Tesla hyped it and used it more regularly to make it part of the experience.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This is EXACTLY why I have no interest, no use, and pure disdain for electric appliances. They’re not even cars. Because everything from a $14,000 Kia to a $2m Bugatti will be as fast as a $2m Bugatti and that completely defeats the purpose of a car. They will all have the exact same character. Which is to say nothing. They’ll be void of everything that makes a car a car. It won’t matter if it’s a year 2030 model or a year 2100 model either. Electric is electric. Bland, soulless, uninteresting, boring, dead.

There’s a soul and a spirit in the put-put chugging of a 1910 Ford Model T 10 horsepower 4 cylinder a silky smooth power delivery of a 1938 Buick Straight 8, and the unmistakable sound of the greatest engine of them all, the GM/Chevy small block from 1955 through today.

I will never touch an electric car as long as I live. It’s infuriating and repulsive.

Yeah I’m pretty sure the Hummer EV will not be “a soulless appliance”. In fact very sure it won’t be.

Soulless ONLY if you need exhaust noise to give it soul. Otherwise EVs do and will have character. Just look at the Taycan and eTron. Wow.

Originally Posted by genxer

What people should realize is there's big investment dollars (we could debate it's legitimacy from a propagandized, debt inflated market...) pushing EVs. Some of these fellas posting have ties to the industry. Essentially, those posts are ads.

That's not to say EVs won't have good-fit owners. In, my area costs for an EV spitball out to be higher than that $30 increase easily.

Consider battery degradation. Capacity decreases can be hidden by the cars's programming lowering the no range cutoff voltage. Voltage curve decreases can't be hidden easily. Slow charges and occasional hard street pulls, shouldn't hurt much. Lots of fast charging, or track sessions would mean a ragged-out battery for the used buyer.

Lots of track days will leave a 2nd owner of an ICE car with a ragged out powertrain as well.

Originally Posted by 43Camaro

So I agree with almost everything you said, with one exception. I also have a model Y Dual Motor Tesla Sport in the family. The EV feels like crap to me and the actual engineering of the CAR (Nuts and Bolts, Suspension ETC) feels ten years behind. The Tech in the car is unbelievable, but I think you need to seperate the two when comparing. I'm also comparing the performance to my ZLE which might not be fair IMO.

As the EV matures they will build more driving experience back in closing the gap between the two platforms.

That’s because Tesla’s are 10 years behind in Chassis tuning. IMO GM leads much if not all of the world in this area, especially when they spend the Money on the hardware. All things being equal I’d put my LaCrosse up against any FWD sedan. Hyper Strut front and Linked H arm rear suspension is pretty slick.

All that being said I can’t seem to get V6 Camaro Convertible out of my head as retirement nears.

[genxer]

Traction control systems still have to detect wheel slip. Semi-conductor switched motor control gives great throttle response. Generations old technology really. There's no secret sauce. Maybe I'm picking. I wish people were more specific about technology unbelievable to them? Maybe gm can get David Copperfield as a pitchman? The 'I can make a pencil disappear' guy is dead.

Lots of track days will leave a 2nd owner of an ICE car with a ragged out powertrain as well.

Not apples to apples and you know it. Baby-fresh batteries will always have the best voltage. Good old engines can soldier on well past their track days. Equivalently, Elon-boxes will develop senior citizen bladder.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Soulless ONLY if you need exhaust noise to give it soul. Otherwise EVs do and will have character. Just look at the Taycan and eTron. Wow.

Seriously? That thing impresses you?

Wow.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

GM does OTA and actually beat Tesla to it. It was just limited and Tesla hyped it and used it more regularly to make it part of the experience.

I didn't know that, but it really doesn't matter.

I buy cars for my reasons, which do not include "the ownership experience" or willingness to give others unlimited ability to make changes to it without my explicit understanding and approval. Recalls, needed repairs, and TSB work (like the infotainment TSB for our WRX that we had done so the system would stop getting stupid about things like the radio presets), all fine. Updating some operating system when the old one isn't handicapping me, I'll pass. Don't want something "fixed" that in my usage isn't broken.

Soulless ONLY if you need exhaust noise to give it soul. Otherwise EVs do and will have character. Just look at the Taycan and eTron. Wow.

Sound is only one facet here. 'Soul' or 'character' are at least in part recognition that a far-from-perfect car can be a really neat thing in and of itself. Neat even in spite of not being as refined as possible. A flathead-powered Deuce coupe has soul in spades, on a level that Tesla can't even begin to comprehend.

All that being said I can’t seem to get V6 Camaro Convertible out of my head as retirement nears.

Being several years retired myself, I get it.


Norm