[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Slickcas

My Company makes parts for the mustang and have not even seen anything on the S650. Usually start seeing stuff about 18 - 24 months out. Now the S550 we actually have some new equipment ramping up higher production. I wish we made parts for Camaro but GM is very ...... nicest way to put it is not reliable on their suppliers and likes to put them out of business Lol

Ford stated several months ago that they were extending the S550 platform for a couple more years. They have not specifically said that S650 will follow that. They also have not said it will not.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No you just chose to interpret it the way you want for whatever reason. And you are, like other media outlets, using words and language to make people think a certain way instead of reporting honestly. So going by your interpretation of the definition of "shelved", the S650 Mustang and the next Gen Chally are both "shelved" also. And I guess you could say 2 years ago before we knew any info on the C8 Vette than it was "shelved" at that time as well. Am I correct? Let's go around and find every vehicle that is currently "shelved".

The part in bold is very accurate.

Originally Posted by Jeb114

GM said it is Shelved, That alone will kill sales, watch them drop over the next 6 month's. The new LT1 is their way of reducing V8 engine stock. The Z/28 was used to eliminate the stock of LS7 engines. Also the 2020 election will change the direction of automobiles in this country forever. Car companies are trying to read the Tea leaves, I am sure its shelved until the election! The auto industry does not want to get caught going in the wrong direction!!!

GM has actually said absolutely nothing. Or maybe they said “No comment”. GM Authority (not affiliated with GM) is putting forward the “shelved” scenario. GM has not commented on either story.

Originally Posted by AlphaDream

GM is putting out the "delayed, not terminated" story to protect current Camaro sales. Call it whatever you want, but there is currently no development team for a 7th gen Alpha2 platform Camaro. The team was disbanded because the Camaro7 under development had exactly the same flaws that compromised sales of the Camaro6, and to fix the flaws they would have had to basically throw out years of development time and money to start over.

Given Camaro6 sales, it would have been a hard sell to bring the Camaro7 to market, but to ask for extra development funds in order to fix the Camaro7 design flaws carried over from Camaro6? It would have been ludicrous.

No Camaro based on the Alpha2 platform will ever be available for sale short of a seismic change in the sports car market. A future VSS-R based Camaro is a possibility, but by the time we get one it will probably feature dual motors instead of a V8.

The part in RED is unknown and unknowable unless someone with a GM badge AND direct involvement with Product Development specifically stated that. I have some very very good friends in GM Product Development and they would never provide me such detailed information. And they would become understandably suspicious of me if I even tried to ask.

The part in bold is a very logical, very plausible scenario. Extending the Camaro on Alpha rather than transitioning it to Alpha2 would allow time to study what Camaro could be on VSS-R and THEN make the live or die / ICE or ICE + e-motors decisions.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I am not sure why you are thinking that the same flaws of the Gen6 would be present on an AlphaII platform. If you take a look at the CTS and compare it to a CT5 (which went from an Alpha to AlphaII platform), you will see a taller roofline and a shorter beltine giving it better visibility. I would assume that if there was going to be a 7thGen based off of AlphaII, it would/could have fixed the visibility issue. And I'm pretty sure that the AlphaII could support a larger trunk opening. As far as the rear seats, the CT5 has roomy rear seats, so I think Chevy was going to fix these issues with the AlphaII based Gen7.

Personally, I think it's more of the CAFE requirements that are pushing things back. I also think the Camaro may skip the AlphaII altogether and be delayed for the VSS-R platform (or vehicle set, if you will). The VSS-R is supposed to underpin all GM RWD/RWD based AWD, longitudinal vehicles. Which would include Camaro, if there will be one.

This delay gives time to develop the new platform, gives time for the C8 to roll out more powertrains that can be borrowed, and frees up resources to work on this big transition to electric/electric-assisted vehicles. Also, why put the Camaro on the AlphaII platform, when all GM vehicles will go to four platfoms in the pretty near future. Why not skip the AlphaII and go straight to the VSS-R? That also reduces the amount of R&D money put into the Camaro as a whole.

I believe that GM is giving the "wait and see" approach. If the decline in car sales (as opposed to SUV/CUV), and more specifically, pony car sales continues, they may abandon the Camaro nameplate. If the demand levels off, they they may ramp up a team to develop a Gen7 Camaro on the VSS-R platform.

But this delay, gives them the flexibility to commit resources to more important projects, and the future will clairify the justificaiton of a 7th Gen Camaro one way or another. Seems like a smart move from a business perspective.

If we ever meet, I’m buying you a drink.

[protovack]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I am not sure why you are thinking that the same flaws of the Gen6 would be present on an AlphaII platform. If you take a look at the CTS and compare it to a CT5 (which went from an Alpha to AlphaII platform), you will see a taller roofline and a shorter beltine giving it better visibility. I would assume that if there was going to be a 7thGen based off of AlphaII, it would/could have fixed the visibility issue. And I'm pretty sure that the AlphaII could support a larger trunk opening. As far as the rear seats, the CT5 has roomy rear seats, so I think Chevy was going to fix these issues with the AlphaII based Gen7.

Personnaly, I think it's more of the CAFE requirements that are pushing things back. I also think the Camaro may skip the AlphaII altogether and be delayed for the VSS-R platform (or vehicle set, if you will). The VSS-R is supposed to underpin all GM RWD/RWD based AWD, longitudinal vehicles. Which would include Camaro, if there will be one.

This delay gives time to develop the new platform, gives time for the C8 to roll out more powertrains that can be borrowed, and frees up resources to work on this big transition to electric/electric-assisted vehicles. Also, why put the Camaro on the AlphaII platform, when all GM vehicles will go to four platfoms in the pretty near future. Why not skip the AlphaII and go straight to the VSS-R? That also reduces the amount of R&D money put into the Camaro as a whole.

I believe that GM is giving the "wait and see" approach. If the decline in car sales (as opposed to SUV/CUV), and more specifically, pony car sales continues, they may abandon the Camaro nameplate. If the demand levels off, they they may ramp up a team to develop a Gen7 Camaro on the VSS-R platform.

But this delay, gives them the flexibility to commit resources to more important projects, and the future will clairify the justificaiton of a 7th Gen Camaro one way or another. Seems like a smart move from a business perspective.

Thank you for providing a reasoned hypothesis about what GM is up to, based on known facts, without making assumptions, staying open to the possibility that they are still committed to performance cars.

There are far too many assumptions being made, and everyone who doesn't like the 6th gen is coming out of the woodwork to comment. And of course, everyone believes if only they were in charge at GM, the Camaro would be "perfect" and outsell every other performance car.

There is this idea out there, that GM somehow wants to abandon performance vehicles and doesn't care about us or our desire to drive fun performance coupes. I think that is a bunch of BS and not supported by any evidence.

GM has many faults, but abandoning performance cars doesn't seem to be one of them. We are talking about a company that, for various quite legitimate reasons stopped production of Camaro in 2002, but then, unexpectedly and against all odds resurrected the project out of the ashes of the post 9/11 era and the economic collapse of 2008...successfully. And then not to be outdone, switched to a new platform and built on top of that one of the best performing sports cars in history.
This is also a company that is about to release the first mid-engine super-car-for-the-masses ever produced.

Al Oppenheiser is one of the engineering greats of this generation, and he is STILL employed at GM, in the final phase of his career, but still going strong, and all evidence seems to point to the fact that he is currently in charge of making high performance RWD electric vehicle platforms. Mark Dickens is now more involved with Camaro and he is a hard core car guy, definitely a performance enthusiast and there is no way he would release a sub-part vehicle.

If Camaro has to "rest" every once in a while, so be it. And it may be that the "rest period" this time is simply delaying the 7th gen a few years. As whiteboy clearly stated, it is VERY likely that GM is looking further into the future than all of us, at the VSS-R platform. It simply makes no sense to invest a ton of money on something that isn't future proof.

Al O. isn't fired he is promoted and working hard on the platforms of the future, who's technology WILL trickle down into Camaro, and the head of the Camaro program is still, like Al O, a genuine car guy. If GM had fired those guys, sure, the naysayers would have a point. But as it stands there is no way that anyone could look at the facts and come away with anything except GM is committed to performance vehicles. That should tell you everything you need to know.

So, lets all just enjoy our 6th gens for what they are (maybe last of a breed), and look forward to what's coming in the future, because I trust the performance enthusiast engineers that GM employs at the very highest level to turn out amazing cars. There's one sitting in my garage right now. I'm going on a roadtrip this coming weekend in it, with my wife in the front seat, and 3 yo boy in the back, and luggage in the trunk. All our stuff fits with room to spare, it's a blast to drive, it has one of, if not the best manual transmissions in the world. No complaints from me, and I look forward to trading in for a new VSS-R camaro in 6-8 years. I may mourn the loss of manual transmission, but I'll get over it. I'm sure the performance will be stunning and a leap forward.

Stay positive people!

[Hops]

What an amazing discussion here! This is why i read the forums, so much better than being clickbaited into articles about articles siting unnamed sources!



I don't have much to add to the discussion, but It does seems like there's a confluence of trends that make a reported "delay" in the 7th gen truly mean a delay. Market position of the new corvette, cafe standards, SUV pests eating cars, hybrid/electric power trains, possible economic downturn, are all uncertainties that must make it difficult to plan for.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by Markoz28

I prefer that Chevy does not release a new camaro. It would keep mine special and relevant. I don’t want mine to be the old model for another 10 years.

i wouldnt worry about that.the young people i work with think my 2015 RS is bad ass.they wont be looked as dated until around 2030 when the e-cars start showing them their back views.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Doc

Thank you, but on this post you missed the point. It isn't just about performance. The demographic you reach once you go past $40k is a different market than the fanboy/muscle car/performance crowd. They have different desires, expectations and perceptions of why they buy a car. The problem is/was, that the demographic that wants the Camaro isn't the $40k+ crowd. The crowd that wants the Camaro just doesn't want nor can likely afford a $600+ a month car payment, and that's for a 72 month loan not including insurance. The car was priced too high for the crowd that wanted it, and didn't have what it needed for the market it was priced at.

The people that can afford prices above $40k want more than just performance. Looks, interior design including materials, usability and status matter a lot to that crowd. They make snap judgments because they can; they don't have to agonize over price. If they look at the Camaro and it looks cramped, then it is... whether it really is inside or not. They won't even bother to open the door and sit inside. You have a couple of seconds to grab their attention; which starts with looks. After that, they get very selective about things, which starts with the interior. The test drive is about the last thing they look at; almost the opposite of the muscle car/performance crowd who just wants to drive it.

It's just a different demographic, and unfortunately the Camaro didn't have what it needed to grab them.

Now that prices are dropping on the Camaros that are on the lot, the market that wanted them all along is starting to buy; for them, it was price all along. I'm starting to see them around town now, where before it was six months after they came out before I saw a single 6th gen.

The Camaro could still be a winner; it just needs a completely new body and interior, but clearly GM has no intention of bothering with it. The Camaro was just a line item on a spreadsheet for them.

Enjoyable and thorough posts as always, thank you, Doc. Just one thing I wanted to point out about target audiences, there is also a middle-aged, $40k+ "capable" demographic that feels oversaturated with the increasing amount of l'art pour l'art technology in cars and desires a more balanced approach rather than lusting after the bleeding edge (aka BMW and Mercedes).

For a prospective new Camaro generation I would want only proven tech and even that only under full driver control and configurability. Not having the absolute latest in gizmos also helps keep the price at a reasonable level even without the penny-pinching that left some unfortunate marks on the 6th gen. Most of the relevant complaints about it would be relatively easy and not too costly to fix in a new design.

[hammdo]

How do you create buzz when your rival announced a kick ass car and you have lack luster sales?

Leak the demise of yours to an obscure website and claim you will not confirm the rumors and just restate what you are already doing.

Now all are talking about YOUR models with FREE advertisements...

Brilliant really... Let's see if it helps sales...

-Don

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The part in RED is unknown and unknowable unless someone with a GM badge AND direct involvement with Product Development specifically stated that. I have some very very good friends in GM Product Development and they would never provide me such detailed information. And they would become understandably suspicious of me if I even tried to ask.

The part in bold is a very logical, very plausible scenario. Extending the Camaro on Alpha rather than transitioning it to Alpha2 would allow time to study what Camaro could be on VSS-R and THEN make the live or die / ICE or ICE + e-motors decisions.


If we ever meet, I’m buying you a drink.

When Martin speaks, people should listen. I’m going with this.

[Smokin19]

When you think about CAFE standards, you also have to think about the politics of it. Meaning, which political party holds the Whitehouse. Just look at all the time being spent talking about the "New Green Deal" by the Democrats.

If you are in the car business, which party occupies the Whitehouse will have a bearing on how those standards go forward. GM, Ford and the others are out on a limb not knowing which party will be in power after the 2020 elections. The current administration might be more willing to delay some of those standards but, after the election who knows.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If we ever meet, I’m buying you a drink.

Are you kidding, I (we all, really) should be buying YOU a drink! And not just to loosen up your tounge, either! But, I'll take it. Thanks for all the great insight!

[samurai]

So according the GMA, which is much more trustworthy than this other site with an anonymous source, it's just a delay for 7th Gen - Which is totally fine.


Remember that 7th Gen Mustang was rescheduled from 2020 to 2022 and some sources hint that it got maybe pushed until 2025 (I'm not sure about this, since the only source released on April 1st but never got an updated statement if that was true or not). And nobody is screaming "OH MY GOD, THE MUSTANG IS SHELVED!"...


And before people claim again that Alpha2 might not fix the visibility, I uploaded again the leaked cadillac coupe sketches that are cleary based on a 7th gen Camaro (just look at the sidelines, it's 100% Camaro). You can clearly see a lower beltline, bigger windows and even some kind of hatchback trunkopening

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Doc

Thank you, but on this post you missed the point. It isn't just about performance. The demographic you reach once you go past $40k is a different market than the fanboy/muscle car/performance crowd. They have different desires, expectations and perceptions of why they buy a car. The problem is/was, that the demographic that wants the Camaro isn't the $40k+ crowd. The crowd that wants the Camaro just doesn't want nor can likely afford a $600+ a month car payment, and that's for a 72 month loan not including insurance. The car was priced too high for the crowd that wanted it, and didn't have what it needed for the market it was priced at.

The people that can afford prices above $40k want more than just performance. Looks, interior design including materials, usability and status matter a lot to that crowd. They make snap judgments because they can; they don't have to agonize over price. If they look at the Camaro and it looks cramped, then it is... whether it really is inside or not. They won't even bother to open the door and sit inside. You have a couple of seconds to grab their attention; which starts with looks. After that, they get very selective about things, which starts with the interior. The test drive is about the last thing they look at; almost the opposite of the muscle car/performance crowd who just wants to drive it.

It's just a different demographic, and unfortunately the Camaro didn't have what it needed to grab them.

Now that prices are dropping on the Camaros that are on the lot, the market that wanted them all along is starting to buy; for them, it was price all along. I'm starting to see them around town now, where before it was six months after they came out before I saw a single 6th gen.

The Camaro could still be a winner; it just needs a completely new body and interior, but clearly GM has no intention of bothering with it. The Camaro was just a line item on a spreadsheet for them.

Doc has a really good point. Once you cross a certain dollar amount people crosshop some odd choices. Buddy of mine was looking at SRT8 challengers when he got his first good paying job out of college, ended up in a Infinity G35 (this was back in 09 or early 10)

and I hate to say it but people in my age group or at least people I know do it all the time. If they are spending a certain amount of money on a vehicle if they could get an entry level luxury make, they would rather get that then something else.

[Jeb114]

you will know soon, If the aftermarket people start to fade away. That's what happened in 2002.

[mlee]

This was something mentioned to me last year that the 6th Gen would continue for a bit longer than we were expecting. This news gets out, ASSumptions are made and the clickbait articles fly.

Like Martin, I wouldn't even ask my GM friends about this, but if these rumors were true I'm thinking they would announce it and sell the heck out of Camaros until that time.

Just relax and enjoy your cars.

This GM Authority Article pretty much nails it on the head.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Smokin19

When you think about CAFE standards, you also have to think about the politics of it. Meaning, which political party holds the Whitehouse. Just look at all the time being spent talking about the "New Green Deal" by the Democrats.

If you are in the car business, which party occupies the Whitehouse will have a bearing on how those standards go forward. GM, Ford and the others are out on a limb not knowing which party will be in power after the 2020 elections. The current administration might be more willing to delay some of those standards but, after the election who knows.

The interesting thing here, though, is that the automakers, through the auto alliance, have sent letters to the president and to Congress asking that the regulations NOT be frozen at 2020 levels thru 2025. I think the reasoning behind it is that some have already started spending towards achieving the expected targets for 2025. Without the currently planned regulations in place, a lot of that spending is just money burned. Also, they may realize that even if the US (whose targets are already more lax than the rest of the world) doesn’t set strict targets, international automakers that are already engineering to even stricter standards for Europe, China, and Japan / Korea can still bring their “more advanced” product to the US and square them up against domestic product that is not as up to date. And finally, just kicking the can down the road and raising the standards later could result in MORE spending later to buy into technologies that get stalled today. Basically, a share the pain strategy.