[hotlap]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

There is a dealership selling New 2019 Hell Cats for 51k.

https://www.koonsjeep.com/new-dodge/...cetInteracted=

These were selling for $70k five years ago. Good deal however M6 Hellcat is unusable on those 275 all season tires

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Here we go again with the pent-up demand excuse again. How many model years is that valid for? 3? 5? 10? 100?

How does a minivan relate to a straight line monster like the Hellcat Challenger? Am I getting too close for comfort when I mention how the 6th gen failed to continue the enormous success the 5th gen started in bringing the Camaro nameplate back to the market?

You argue the 5th gen barely outsold the Mustang like a 6th gen bro hero, but yet ignore the fact the 6th gen struggles to maintain number three behind that big old ancient straight line monster you call a Challenger.

The 6th gen is a dud in the market place whether you like it not. Hopefully, it's failure will not jeapordize a possible successor like the 7th gen that's rumored to be coming out in the next few years.

I’m thinking minivan.. it just seems more your speed.. you seem like a minivan guy with all this talk of needing more room. making turns seems like it might be too much for you. Or the guys posted some good discounts for a Hellcat since you like driving such dated technology.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I doubt it will do much, personally. 35 BHP isn't too hard to squeeze out of the LT1, after all. Aftermarket has tons of options if you care that much.

I actually just looked at the Mustang sales figures. I didn't see a jump around when the 2018 came out.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-m...sales-figures/

Same with the ND Miata which received 26 extra ponies for the 2019 model. Keep in mind this is a much bigger relative change in horsepower compared to the Mustang engine update since the old model had 155 BHP.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mazda-...sales-figures/

And I really don't get your beef with less practicality. That's one factor that makes no sense IMO because no one buys a Camaro for practicality. It's not designed for that to begin with. And what do you need to carry anyway?



Sales doesn't represent how good a car is, as I have said multiple times. Sorry to say, if 6th Gen is closer to a 5th Gen, I would just have picked up another used C7 to replace my flooded one. In fact, my impression of Camaro was "big fat American car that can't handle" until someone who wanted a C7 bought one on another forum and raved about the car. I did my research and saw how wrong I was.

Also, if 6th Gen is closer to 5th Gen, you won't be buying one, either because it's also not worth it for you to pick up something that's so similar to your 5th Gen. So either way, you won't buy a 6th Gen, and neither will any of the 5th Gen owners.

Sent from toaster or something

The Mustang’s sales have been falling harder than Camaro. The Challenger’s gain in market share is only relative to the others fall. It has basically flatlined.

Since 2015, sales have fallen for each...
37.7% Camaro
40.8% Mustang
8.1% Challenger

[shaffe]

Yep the market is falling for all three. It is kind of scary to see if you want this type of car to continue to be around

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The Mustang’s sales have been falling harder than Camaro. The Challenger’s gain in market share is only relative to the others fall. It has basically flatlined.

Since 2015, sales have fallen for each...
37.7% Camaro
40.8% Mustang
8.1% Challenger

Case in point, the minor power bump of the Mustang didn't do jack.

And it makes sense. Think about it...

- For your average consumer, they probably don't even know what engine the car has, or just knows "it's a 4-cylinder/6-cylinder/V8". As long as they go fast enough for them, they couldn't care less about the number.

- For a car person, no one is stupid enough to trade in a car for a minor power bump. We just hit up a tuner, give them a couple of hundred bucks and get that minor power bump ourselves.

Yeah, there are people who swap phones every year, but phones are cheaper and the generation changes every year versus every 5 years or so. Cars are not comparable.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yep the market is falling for anything that's not an SUV. It is kind of scary to see if you want this type of car to continue to be around

FIFY.

Even mid-size family Sedans are suffering, not to mention sports/pony/muscle cars.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

I’m thinking minivan.. it just seems more your speed.. you seem like a minivan guy with all this talk of needing more room. making turns seems like it might be too much for you. Or the guys posted some good discounts for a Hellcat since you like driving such dated technology.

This comment is the problem. Wanting a Camaro that has a reasonable package is NOT someone who wants a Mini Van or SUV. Please, it may make you feel better, but it simply telling some of us you can't see the bigger picture.

Overall the best performing car is sitting in the basement for sales. If GM is ok selling 48,000 Camaros, then fine. But the trend for all 3 is a predictor that this segment is dying and if you are last in the segment and not pulling your weight in profitability, well we've seen GM run that play book 20 years ago.

This becomes the exercise (and GM was horrible at when I was there) is not trying to understand why people DO buy your car but understanding why they DON'T buy your car.

This website is full of people that will tell you it's the awesome-ist car ever, there is no visibility problem and if you want to put golf clubs in your trunk then BUY A MINIVAN. LOL

If you can step back for a minute and at least appreciate that a great coupe doesn't have a high lift over trunk, can accommodate golf clubs (really it's an inch or two away and you could easily get two golf bags in an ATS coupe) and visibility. The Ed Wellburn signature, high belt, slammed roof looks cool, but makes visibility worse. These are the reasons it is not a great coupe and likely why the volumes are lower than the competition.

My guess is if you compared V8 to V8 sales, they are probably much closer, but I've not seen the data. Plus I'd like to see the break down for male vs. female buyers.

In 2001, the V8 sales never really fell off that much, it was the total volume that tanked. And that volume wasn't enough to keep a plant open or justify the investment in a new car as Camaro was the only car produced in St. Therese. The Gen6 car has the benefit of it's Alpha stablemates to keep the plant running. But 48,000 by itself? Not a good business case.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

My guess is if you compared V8 to V8 sales, they are probably much closer, but I've not seen the data. Plus I'd like to see the break down for male vs. female buyers.

Without getting into the great coupe debate (I agree with Number 3 opinion wholeheartedly on that)

The bolded part is what I want to see. For jsut V-8 sales, I wouldn't be shocked if Camaro was ahead and that is where IMO lays the problem. Yes we are all enthusiasts and performance is what most of us care the most about. That is not where the bulk of sales come from. The low end model needs to succeed in order to have awesome high end models. I would guess the V6/i4 probably makes up at least 60% of the sales and those are the buyers that probably don't care about 0-60 or ring times.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Without getting into the great coupe debate (I agree with Number 3 opinion wholeheartedly on that)

The bolded part is what I want to see. For jsut V-8 sales, I wouldn't be shocked if Camaro was ahead and that is where IMO lays the problem. Yes we are all enthusiasts and performance is what most of us care the most about. That is not where the bulk of sales come from. The low end model needs to succeed in order to have awesome high end models. I would guess the V6/i4 probably makes up at least 60% of the sales and those are the buyers that probably don't care about 0-60 or ring times.

You don’t buy a new I4/V6 Camaro/Mustang/Challenger if it doesn’t stir desire. None of these cars are practical - albeit the Camaro is the least.

There is more missing here than being a “great coupe”. People increasingly do not want coupes.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by Number 3

This website is full of people that will tell you it's the awesome-ist car ever, there is no visibility problem and if you want to put golf clubs in your trunk then BUY A MINIVAN. LOL

The wife and I go golfing with the SS. No problems. Just have to fold down the back seat.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You don’t buy a new I4/V6 Camaro/Mustang/Challenger if it doesn’t stir desire. None of these cars are practical - albeit the Camaro is the least.

There is more missing here than being a “great coupe”. People increasingly do not want coupes.

People are just generally boring anymore.

The Camaro is the only of the three I desire. All of the discounts in the world wouldn't get me to buy a Challenger.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Long answer is the LT2 is a slightly hopped-up version of the LT1:
-Changed camshaft profile on the exhaust side (for Z51 headers)
-Improved intake manifold (C7 hoodline restricted plenum space and some runner's length on LT1)
-Integrated dry-sump system
-Revised block to incorporate mid-engine configuration

The possibility for the LT2 intake to fit under the hood of the Camaro is questionable. It's likely, easily, possible with changed engine mounts to lower the engine (bu how much?). However, word is that the under-side of the LT2 intake is configured to the LT2 (keep in mind the intake faces the opposite way in the C8) and requires either a spacer or some modification to the intake to fit on the LT1 correctly.

The LT2 block will, simply, not mount-up easily in the Camaro as it was designed for mid-engine layout.

It would be cool to see GM make an "LT3" variant of the LT2 by applying the LT2 intake (or modified variant) and include the LT2 cam to provide an upgrade to the LT1/L87 for a specialty truck and upgraded Camaro SS.

Pretty much this.^^^ RPO codes are changed when something material changes with the engine or transmission. The LT2, as it sits in the Corvette simply will not fit in the Camaro. Could some of the features be adapted to Camaro? Sure, but they would be under a different RPO code. Likelihood of that happening before 2023, not zero, but probably not 25% either.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

People are just generally boring anymore.

The Camaro is the only of the three I desire. All of the discounts in the world wouldn't get me to buy a Challenger.

Amen to that...I'd never consider a Challenger...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You don’t buy a new I4/V6 Camaro/Mustang/Challenger if it doesn’t stir desire. None of these cars are practical - albeit the Camaro is the least.

There is more missing here than being a “great coupe”. People increasingly do not want coupes.

True and that is where the looks and visuals and accessibility come in. When there isn't a factor of I can over look this shortcoming because the performance is insane those other things can become more important.

Yes people increasingly do not want coupes. That to me should mean that you should want to try to appeal to as many as possible and not the smallest part of the coupe segment.

Originally Posted by jamala00

The wife and I go golfing with the SS. No problems. Just have to fold down the back seat.

Can't do that with a child seat in the back, camaro doesn't have a split fold rear seat. For someone like me, who's kid is still in a car seat that would be a deal breaker. But that makes the Mustang or Challenger an option

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Pretty much this.^^^ RPO codes are changed when something material changes with the engine or transmission. The LT2, as it sits in the Corvette simply will not fit in the Camaro. Could some of the features be adapted to Camaro? Sure, but they would be under a different RPO code. Likelihood of that happening before 2023, not zero, but probably not 25% either.

Interesting

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I still think we're missing the point. This car need to appeal to young buyers. And it must be AFFORDABLE to them. If not, it's just a matter of time before it's cut.

It's funny... I have a Harley as well and am a member of an HD Forum as well. ALL these same comments and conversations are going on in that Forum as well. I don't know if it's just the fact that people don't have the disposable income anymore or if they genuinely are just not interested in these kinds of toys.