[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

Volvo Car to Slash Polestar Stake as EV Shift Stumbles:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...shift-stumbles

It even says in the article that funding responsibility doesn’t go away, it shifts from Volvo to Geely, which is the parent company for both brands. Part of the rationale is that future Polestar models won’t be based on future Volvo models. They’ll be their own design, so no more need for cost sharing with Volvo.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Speaking of $15k-ish EV commuters, used Model 3's are going for about $20k and I'm not sure what used $26k MSRP Chevy Bolts are going for, but they're a decent and cheap little car with good range.

Blame whatever administration you want, IMHO, issues started when a globalist president let China in the WTO (2000) with no accountability.

Well, so much for free trade agreements. Now its a race to the bottom, or upping the antes with which government can find the perfect balance of tariffs and subsidies, ours or China's.

And hard pass on a used EV that has lost half it's value in 19 months. If I ever got one, it'd have to be new with a warranty. Why do you suppose new EVs tank so quickly in value?

How much do you think the CCP has to subsidize BYD to sell at those prices and take over the global market? Probably less than $7500US/each.

GM going all in competing against the CCP, which controls 80% of their supply chain was kind of stupid. It's going to be fun to watch them incrementally walk their bold 2035 statements back and try to make it sound like 100% EV was never their plan the whole time.

Good luck selling us $40k+ Equinox skateboards and telling us what a value it is, when europe is getting $14k BYD cars that are getting pretty good reviews. Subsidies and tariffs will only last for so long. (looking at you, ethanol).

I want the best for American manufacturing, the American taxpayer, and the American consumer, with as little government manipulation as possible. Agenda driven policies are what got us here, though, at taxpayer expense, with little regard consumer demand.

[Evergreen6]

Actually, it's Americans who got us here and the agenda-driven policies were what US shoppers wanted. Cheap crap, cheap TV's, cheap and disposable everything, because price.

Listen to buzz about EV's in America. Teslas are too expensive. "I want a $15k EV commuter". "EV's are an evil ____ agenda".

And so Americans have dragged their feet, kicked, screamed, whined, and resisted adopting EV's the whole way, letting China eat our lunch.

Meanwhile, Teslas hold 5 out of 6 of the top positions in the US-Made vehicles index. The only semblance of a so-called "American" auto manufacturer appears in spot #19 with the Chevrolet Corvette.

Rest assured if/when BYD starts selling cheap EV's here, they will sell. Because price over principle, and we let it happen.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Actually, it's Americans who got us here and the agenda-driven policies were what US shoppers wanted. Cheap crap, cheap TV's, cheap and disposable everything, because price.

Listen to buzz about EV's in America. Teslas are too expensive. "I want a $15k EV commuter". "EV's are an evil ____ agenda".

And so Americans have dragged their feet, kicked, screamed, whined, and resisted adopting EV's the whole way, letting China eat our lunch.

Meanwhile, Teslas hold 5 out of 6 of the top positions in the US-Made vehicles index. The only semblance of a so-called "American" auto manufacturer appears in spot #19 with the Chevrolet Corvette.

Rest assured if/when BYD starts selling cheap EV's here, they will sell. Because price over principle, and we let it happen.

Well said. This is why I like the IRA EV Incentive program as much as I do. Contrary to how it is perceived, its focus is not to say “Hey everybody! Go out and buy an EV and we’ll give you money”. What it actually says is “If you’re gonna buy an EV, buy one that’s made in North America with batteries made in North America using minerals that are mined and processed in friendly countries (ie…not China and not Peoples Republic of Congo) and we’ll give you money back”.

The point is to protect US jobs and industry from what is undoubtedly to come from low priced Chinese EV cars and content.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The point is to protect US jobs and industry from what is undoubtedly to come from low priced Chinese EV cars and content.

For how long, and what cost to taxpayers and consumers? Competing in the EV arena was driven by policy and regulation, not consumer demand, and now policy has to sustain it on life support, to postpone a catastrophe for the big 3. How many years out is an American version of a BYD Dolphin? Nevermind, American OEMs are obsessed with low volume/high margin platforms in the age of 8% interest rates.

[genxer]

I'm good with cripplingly high tariffs and domestic vehicle deregulation. Mexico is off my buying list, Musk & Silicon Valley too.

China and Western Europe can have each other and fight over the Middle East.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

.

There's still Argentina and Brazil for GM. Korea is probably near where US tier2 pay was.

There's a lot of extras in cars that can be left out. A dose of austerity to new buyers is needed to shrink the strain on used vehicle ownership.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Actually, it's Americans who got us here and the agenda-driven policies were what US shoppers wanted. Cheap crap, cheap TV's, cheap and disposable everything, because price.

Listen to buzz about EV's in America. Teslas are too expensive. "I want a $15k EV commuter". "EV's are an evil ____ agenda".

And so Americans have dragged their feet, kicked, screamed, whined, and resisted adopting EV's the whole way, letting China eat our lunch.

Meanwhile, Teslas hold 5 out of 6 of the top positions in the US-Made vehicles index. The only semblance of a so-called "American" auto manufacturer appears in spot #19 with the Chevrolet Corvette.

Rest assured if/when BYD starts selling cheap EV's here, they will sell. Because price over principle, and we let it happen.

Kindly explain what agenda(s) drive(s) the policies and what exactly those policies are that shoppers wanted. Because to me that sentence makes little to no sense.

And assuming your premise does make sense, what should we have done differently?

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

So it's some Americans' fault for not buying products they don't want at prices they can't afford because China and Europe are forcing their citizens down a certain path? Ok.

Don't worry about China, their population is absolutely collapsing at a historically quick rate and their economy will follow. The One Child policy was/will be devastating to them. Modern economies (for the past hundreds, if not thousands of years) are built on pyramid scheme on top of pyramid schemes, but the foundational pyramid is population itself. You want more young people than old.

If we actually wanted to destroy China quicker, we would park a small naval fleet between them and the Middle East (where they get much of their energy) and bomb the hell out of one small land area with a certain road.

First, that's not what I said, but I can see why you'd twist my words to fit your narrative.

China isn't going anywhere and suggesting bombing a region because of consumer sentiment is absurd.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Kindly explain what agenda(s) drive(s) the policies and what exactly those policies are that shoppers wanted. Because to me that sentence makes little to no sense.

And assuming your premise does make sense, what should we have done differently?

It does make sense. Shoppers want cheap goods and businesses want to sell them cheap goods. Trade and tax policies have followed to enable consumerism. Simple as that. And so Americans spend half their paychecks on cheap crap from China at Walmart.

With regards to EV's, it would have started back in the mid-90's and instead of GM killing the electric car, they'd be 30 years ahead creating the next Tesla, and well ahead of China.

A Tesla is the most American car you can buy right now. The majority are built here, sourced here, assembled here, using American and North American labor, and the more people buy, the cheaper they become. Note that we're in a period of record US oil production, which is great, but alternative energy further increases any dependence on foreign oil, and it creates massive amounts of good jobs here in the US. You want American workers? Battery tech will change but the US has massive lithium deposits. The EPA superfund site that is the Salton Sea in Southern California is about to get transformed into a literal gold mine (except, lithium). F the earth, reducing emissions is great and there is real benefit. Let's start putting shovels in hands--all those coal miners out of a job have a job again.

Had the EV seen earlier interest and investment, we'd be farther ahead on that game too, but instead we've pissed all over the idea of EV's for the most part when we had an opportunity to be simply, the best.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

For how long, and what cost to taxpayers and consumers? Competing in the EV arena was driven by policy and regulation, not consumer demand, and now policy has to sustain it on life support, to postpone a catastrophe for the big 3. How many years out is an American version of a BYD Dolphin? Nevermind, American OEMs are obsessed with low volume/high margin platforms in the age of 8% interest rates.

IRA is law through 2032. Not gonna comment on the BYD Dolphin. Who may or may not be working on similar products is conjecture at best. There are a number of EV manufacturers who would raise their hands and say “we’re working on that” but at some level that’s all liars poker until you see product on the auto show circuit. Except for Tesla. Arguably Dolphin is BYD’s answer to Model 3. Model 3 just got an upgrade and is available at prices ranging from $36k to $54.3k. The performance Model 3 will no doubt price a bit higher than that but hasn’t been revealed yet.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

Investment from whom? Where would the money have come from? Who would have bought the EVs and how would they have operated with 90's EV and battery tech? We might have been ahead of China at something not enough people want or care about and at what cost?

I don't think many of us here are ANTI-EV, we're against the FORCED push to it. I want you to be able to buy an affordable EV that you love while I still have the option to buy a V8 equipped vehicle that I also love.

I'd be right there with you protesting if there was a mandate to buy an EV. But there isn't. Nothing even close today, or proposed in the future.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

I'd be right there with you protesting if there was a mandate to buy an EV. But there isn't. Nothing even close today, or proposed in the future.

Yes, this tired talking point that technically zero tailpipe emissions suspense dates, EPA mileage standards of "divide by zero" miles/gallon, are not "EV mandates". Most of us see the abolishment of ICE as the same thing.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Yes, this tired talking point that technically zero tailpipe emissions suspense dates, EPA mileage standards of "divide by zero" miles/gallon, are not "EV mandates". Most of us see the abolishment of ICE as the same thing.

Not even close. Emissions targets get moved forward and back all the time including just recently. The ICE isn't being abolished any time soon, not with all the exemptions and EV problems to solve before they may become mainstream.

"Abolishment of ICE" is a tired talking point that is not only untrue, but it's meant to fear-monger. Most states aren't considering adopting any kind of date for stop-sale of ICV's, nor are all states adopting stricter CARB standards.