Ever warped your brake pad backing plate?

Osbornsm · 08-19-2022, 08:43 AM

Context: I had a track day and used some high-temp track pads on stock tires. After which, the pads' backing plates were warped. (not pad taper) I mean warped like a soap dish. Having never seen this, i questioned the pad Mfr.

Me to brake pad Mfr: Your brake-pad backing plate warped into a soap-dish shape after an event.

Vendor: Your Ti shims are the reason our brake backing plate warped. The added heat not going into the caliper will continue to warp our backing plates. REMOVE the shims and try the pads then. You're asking a lot out of a brake pad.

Me: Sorta speechless

---------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Does this seem like a logical solution to the issue?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Brake pad manufacturer deliberately omitted

Alpha1BC · 08-19-2022, 10:04 AM

Can't say for sure without any data, but it seems feasible to me. As my understanding goes, the SS 1LE brakes are pretty close to their thermal limits in stock form. Your engine mods effectively are capable of generating more energy that the brakes have to dissipate to slow the car back down to appropriate corner speeds. Adding a more aggressive pad typically causes more heat into components on top of that, then adding the Ti shim keeps a lot of the already excess heat in the rotor and pad since it's only about half as effective at transferring heat as steel and less than 10% as effective as aluminum. More heat put into the system plus reduced ability to transfer that heat away to other components can certainly be a recipe to make steel soft enough to deform when a few thousand PSI is put through the pistons.

Are you running all stock components besides the pads and shims? At a minimum you should be running the SS or Cadillac blackwing brake deflectors, but with the added engine power you'd be better off upsizing to ZL1/ZL1-1LE or BCD sized brakes. Removing the shims alone won't necessarily be better as the amount of heat generated from higher engine power and more aggressive pads seems to be enough to boil fluid and damage seals.

Osbornsm · 08-19-2022, 11:03 AM

Hey morning! Thanks for the reply.

Sure sounds like a recipe for bending metal, but I never had this problem before. I have ducting going to the rotors from the front of the car. I'm not sure how effective it is though.

I'd rather have heat in the rotors where it can dissipate instead of the fluid.

Thoughts welcome tho!

Alpha1BC · 08-19-2022, 11:52 AM

Fair enough, but gotta keep in mind just because it hasn't happened before doesn't make it impossible. Every car is different and can only handle a certain amount of change before problems start arising. These cars are deceptively quick for how heavy they are from the factory alone, and yours can pick up even more speed before a corner with the added engine mods. With kinetic energy = 1/2 m*v^2, adding more speed to an already heavy and fast car means braking energy, i.e. generated heat, increases exponentially. Throwing that at a brake system that in stock form is right at the limit on the most demanding tracks, add more rapid heat generation from the racing pad (bad because it takes time for everything else to dissipate the heat), and top it off with heavily restricting heat transfer to all the aluminum mass that is best suited to dissipate the excess heat (the steel rotor isn't the best at it) and you've got a bunch of factors working together against you. I think the vendor stated it pretty well, you're asking a lot out of the brake pad in it's current environment. Might also be some stuff that could be improved with your duct setup or even driving style, but my money is still on the previous stuff.

However, I don't fully agree with their suggestion of just removing the shim and going full send without some checks. Seems if you've got enough heat to soften and mold the backing plate that letting more of that through to the caliper assembly you could start boiling fluid or even melting seals (even though you'd save the backing plate). Will definitely want to brake earlier at first and work up to it if you decide to run like that. Switching to the larger brakes is best because it's more fluid, rotor, and caliper mass to manage the heat. They're designed to handle Zl1 levels of power, so on your car should be a clean kill even with more aggressive pads.

Eric10905 · 08-19-2022, 12:39 PM

Wow. To your question on does removing the Ti shims seem logical, I'm not so sure. Like Alpha pointed out, I'd be careful trying that out. Agree, rather have the heat there than in the caliper, boots, and fluid.

But sure would like to know that pad manufacturer. ;-)

5.M0NSTER · 08-19-2022, 03:24 PM

I have bent the backing plate before. Like in a very noticeable kind of way. But that's because I ran the lining material too tin.

carguy55 · 08-20-2022, 05:52 AM

Can you post some pics. I never heard of this issue.

I have used Ti shims with Hawk 60s and 70s and they are some of the highest mu pads made.

Mountain · 08-22-2022, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric10905

Wow. To your question on does removing the Ti shims seem logical, I'm not so sure. Like Alpha pointed out, I'd be careful trying that out. Agree, rather have the heat there than in the caliper, boots, and fluid.

But sure would like to know that pad manufacturer. ;-)

Might answer your question
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...67&postcount=5

Osbornsm · 08-22-2022, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain

Might answer your question
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...67&postcount=5

I'm TRYING not to call out on purpose lol

5.M0NSTER · 08-22-2022, 04:12 PM

Lol, my bent plate experience was also with an XP10 pad. I did not have TI shims at the time tho, so take that for what it's worth.

I ran them waaaaay low. Started the day with ~2mm of lining, and finished on backing plates, changing pads at a gas station on my way home.

Osbornsm · 08-22-2022, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

changing pads at a gas station on my way home.

OMGGGGG

5.M0NSTER · 08-22-2022, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osbornsm

Yessir. I was young(er) and stupid(er). Mustang days.

Mountain · 08-23-2022, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osbornsm

I'm TRYING not to call out on purpose lol

That's evident

Eric10905 · 08-23-2022, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain

Might answer your question
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...67&postcount=5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osbornsm

I'm TRYING not to call out on purpose lol

LOL, well thanks to Mountain for the lead nonetheless.

And to changing pads at the gas station, that's true hardcore dedication. ;-)

08-19-2022, 08:43 AM	#1
Osbornsm Drives: 2018 SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Illinois Posts: 618 View My Garage	Ever warped your brake pad backing plate? Context: I had a track day and used some high-temp track pads on stock tires. After which, the pads' backing plates were warped. (not pad taper) I mean warped like a soap dish. Having never seen this, i questioned the pad Mfr. Me to brake pad Mfr: Your brake-pad backing plate warped into a soap-dish shape after an event. Vendor: Your Ti shims are the reason our brake backing plate warped. The added heat not going into the caliper will continue to warp our backing plates. REMOVE the shims and try the pads then. You're asking a lot out of a brake pad. Me: Sorta speechless --------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Does this seem like a logical solution to the issue? --------------------------------------------------------------- Brake pad manufacturer deliberately omitted __________________ 2018 Camaro SS 1LE - 2011 370z - 2004 VW R32 - 2000 Civic Si Mods: Rotofab, Nick Williams 103mm TB, MSD IM, Kooks 1 7/8 Results: 470 hp / 447 tq

08-19-2022, 10:04 AM	#2
Alpha1BC Drives: 2017 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,001	Can't say for sure without any data, but it seems feasible to me. As my understanding goes, the SS 1LE brakes are pretty close to their thermal limits in stock form. Your engine mods effectively are capable of generating more energy that the brakes have to dissipate to slow the car back down to appropriate corner speeds. Adding a more aggressive pad typically causes more heat into components on top of that, then adding the Ti shim keeps a lot of the already excess heat in the rotor and pad since it's only about half as effective at transferring heat as steel and less than 10% as effective as aluminum. More heat put into the system plus reduced ability to transfer that heat away to other components can certainly be a recipe to make steel soft enough to deform when a few thousand PSI is put through the pistons. Are you running all stock components besides the pads and shims? At a minimum you should be running the SS or Cadillac blackwing brake deflectors, but with the added engine power you'd be better off upsizing to ZL1/ZL1-1LE or BCD sized brakes. Removing the shims alone won't necessarily be better as the amount of heat generated from higher engine power and more aggressive pads seems to be enough to boil fluid and damage seals. __________________ 2017 SS 1LE. Last edited by Alpha1BC; 08-19-2022 at 10:32 AM.

08-19-2022, 11:03 AM	#3
Osbornsm Drives: 2018 SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Illinois Posts: 618 View My Garage	Hey morning! Thanks for the reply. Sure sounds like a recipe for bending metal, but I never had this problem before. I have ducting going to the rotors from the front of the car. I'm not sure how effective it is though. I'd rather have heat in the rotors where it can dissipate instead of the fluid. Thoughts welcome tho! __________________ 2018 Camaro SS 1LE - 2011 370z - 2004 VW R32 - 2000 Civic Si Mods: Rotofab, Nick Williams 103mm TB, MSD IM, Kooks 1 7/8 Results: 470 hp / 447 tq

08-19-2022, 11:52 AM	#4
Alpha1BC Drives: 2017 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,001	Fair enough, but gotta keep in mind just because it hasn't happened before doesn't make it impossible. Every car is different and can only handle a certain amount of change before problems start arising. These cars are deceptively quick for how heavy they are from the factory alone, and yours can pick up even more speed before a corner with the added engine mods. With kinetic energy = 1/2 m*v^2, adding more speed to an already heavy and fast car means braking energy, i.e. generated heat, increases exponentially. Throwing that at a brake system that in stock form is right at the limit on the most demanding tracks, add more rapid heat generation from the racing pad (bad because it takes time for everything else to dissipate the heat), and top it off with heavily restricting heat transfer to all the aluminum mass that is best suited to dissipate the excess heat (the steel rotor isn't the best at it) and you've got a bunch of factors working together against you. I think the vendor stated it pretty well, you're asking a lot out of the brake pad in it's current environment. Might also be some stuff that could be improved with your duct setup or even driving style, but my money is still on the previous stuff. However, I don't fully agree with their suggestion of just removing the shim and going full send without some checks. Seems if you've got enough heat to soften and mold the backing plate that letting more of that through to the caliper assembly you could start boiling fluid or even melting seals (even though you'd save the backing plate). Will definitely want to brake earlier at first and work up to it if you decide to run like that. Switching to the larger brakes is best because it's more fluid, rotor, and caliper mass to manage the heat. They're designed to handle Zl1 levels of power, so on your car should be a clean kill even with more aggressive pads. __________________ 2017 SS 1LE.

08-19-2022, 12:39 PM	#5
Eric10905 Geezer_loves_Camaros Drives: 2018 2SS, Black, A8 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Austin Posts: 225	Wow. To your question on does removing the Ti shims seem logical, I'm not so sure. Like Alpha pointed out, I'd be careful trying that out. Agree, rather have the heat there than in the caliper, boots, and fluid. But sure would like to know that pad manufacturer. ;-)

08-19-2022, 03:24 PM	#6
5.M0NSTER Drives: 2018 Camaro 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Michigan Posts: 434	I have bent the backing plate before. Like in a very noticeable kind of way. But that's because I ran the lining material too tin.

08-20-2022, 05:52 AM	#7
carguy55 Drives: 2018 1SS 1LE Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,489 View My Garage	Can you post some pics. I never heard of this issue. I have used Ti shims with Hawk 60s and 70s and they are some of the highest mu pads made.

08-22-2022, 04:12 PM	#10
5.M0NSTER Drives: 2018 Camaro 1SS 1LE Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: Michigan Posts: 434	Lol, my bent plate experience was also with an XP10 pad. I did not have TI shims at the time tho, so take that for what it's worth. I ran them waaaaay low. Started the day with ~2mm of lining, and finished on backing plates, changing pads at a gas station on my way home.

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