[Intimidator]

Right Now...as a GM loyalist, I am extremely disappointed with the ZL1 numbers...hopefully GM is holding something back....but I doubt it!
I am a 6th gen Camaro 2SS owner...I have not found the cars handling limit yet, mainly because of the seats! I do not have a course close, but plenty of winding County roads and on/off ramps.
BUT I DO have plenty of 1/4 mile race tracks.
If I can't find the handling limit on a 2SS on the street, then why would I want more handling?
I just got brutalized by a local Hell Kitty...so do I win a battle because my 2SS handles just a tad better, even though the seats stop me from getting it there?
I don't want a damn Z28, I want a Weekend Street Warrior from GM.
The REAL WORLD for most of us, is cruising around town, playing on ramps, rural curves, and light to light...or the local track.
Why would I spend money on a new ZL1, if it will get it's ass handed to it in REAL WORLD driving against the Kitty.
Hell, if they update the Kitty, and the GT500 comes to fruition, GM is third again, in the Numbers that matter to me!

This ZL1 has better handling argument is getting as stale as arguing if Pro Mods are Street Cars...I consider a Street Car anything you can title! I could care less if the ZL1 can keep up with the Z28 on the circle I want track...the ZL1 USED TO BE the "Boulevard Brawler"!
I want a damn 800hp Factory Beast! Cause you know that's what Ford and the Kitty Maker are gonna do!

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by Intimidator

Right Now...as a GM loyalist, I am extremely disappointed with the ZL1 numbers...hopefully GM is holding something back....but I doubt it!
I am a 6th gen Camaro 2SS owner...I have not found the cars handling limit yet, mainly because of the seats! I do not have a course close, but plenty of winding County roads and on/off ramps.
BUT I DO have plenty of 1/4 mile race tracks.
If I can't find the handling limit on a 2SS on the street, then why would I want more handling?
I just got brutalized by a local Hell Kitty...so do I win a battle because my 2SS handles just a tad better, even though the seats stop me from getting it there?
I don't want a damn Z28, I want a Weekend Street Warrior from GM.
The REAL WORLD for most of us, is cruising around town, playing on ramps, rural curves, and light to light...or the local track.
Why would I spend money on a new ZL1, if it will get it's ass handed to it in REAL WORLD driving against the Kitty.
Hell, if they update the Kitty, and the GT500 comes to fruition, GM is third again, in the Numbers that matter to me!

This ZL1 has better handling argument is getting as stale as arguing if Pro Mods are Street Cars...I consider a Street Car anything you can title! I could care less if the ZL1 can keep up with the Z28 on the circle I want track...the ZL1 USED TO BE the "Boulevard Brawler"!
I want a damn 800hp Factory Beast! Cause you know that's what Ford and the Kitty Maker are gonna do!

ZL1S are easily modded to 800hp.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by Intimidator

Right Now...as a GM loyalist, I am extremely disappointed with the ZL1 numbers...hopefully GM is holding something back....but I doubt it!
I am a 6th gen Camaro 2SS owner...I have not found the cars handling limit yet, mainly because of the seats! I do not have a course close, but plenty of winding County roads and on/off ramps.
BUT I DO have plenty of 1/4 mile race tracks.
If I can't find the handling limit on a 2SS on the street, then why would I want more handling?
I just got brutalized by a local Hell Kitty...so do I win a battle because my 2SS handles just a tad better, even though the seats stop me from getting it there?
I don't want a damn Z28, I want a Weekend Street Warrior from GM.
The REAL WORLD for most of us, is cruising around town, playing on ramps, rural curves, and light to light...or the local track.
Why would I spend money on a new ZL1, if it will get it's ass handed to it in REAL WORLD driving against the Kitty.
Hell, if they update the Kitty, and the GT500 comes to fruition, GM is third again, in the Numbers that matter to me!

This ZL1 has better handling argument is getting as stale as arguing if Pro Mods are Street Cars...I consider a Street Car anything you can title! I could care less if the ZL1 can keep up with the Z28 on the circle I want track...the ZL1 USED TO BE the "Boulevard Brawler"!
I want a damn 800hp Factory Beast! Cause you know that's what Ford and the Kitty Maker are gonna do!

Just because you don't see the benefit in better handling where you drive, doesn't mean others don't. And that world is just as REAL as yours.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Just because you don't see the benefit in better handling where you drive, doesn't mean others don't. And that world is just as REAL as yours - go buy a HC.

I imagine the HC owners find THEIR car's handling limit a lot faster than the new 2SS owners or even the 5th Gen ZL1 owners.

It is definitely a street/strip warrior, not a country road or road course brawler.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I imagine the HC owners find THEIR car's handling limit a lot faster than the new 2SS owners or even the 5th Gen ZL1 owners.

It is definitely a street/strip warrior, not a country road or road course brawler.

Exactly, I would prefer trying to find a limit. Once you hit the limit the car becomes boring. Good thing the ZL1 comes with a steering wheel and tires wide enough to turn.

[HCT]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

It is interesting that, it appears on this forum, (please let me know if i'm wrong) that none of the HC owners or pundits care about road course times ( i think we know why).

It is too bad, at least according to the few HC enthusiasts here on Camaro6, that 1320 is the only thing that matters, and that until GM's products can easily start "Walking" a HC down the strip, that apparently they just aren't worth discussing.

I can't speak for all Hellcat owners but I can share my perspective: it's natural that Hellcat owners aren't talking about stuff like 'Ring times because the car is a dog on a road course.

Are you familiar with the phrase "self-selecting sample"? If you buy a Hellcat it's because you aren't heavily into road courses or canyon carving. If you're into those things you rule out the Hellcat pretty quickly. So it shouldn't be a surprise that Hellcat owners are super happy about what their cars do well and don't care about what their cars don't do well.

p.s. I also find it interesting now that trap speeds etc. have been released the focus seems to have shifted to how comfortable the HC is vs. a Camaro and that now seems to be the deciding factor on which car is better.

At least for me there's been no "change of focus" -- when I bought my car it was imperative I had room for actual adult-sized people to ride comfortably in the back. The car is my daily driver and practicality was a big concern. But looking forward a year or two, my kids are going to have their own cars so now I can downsize -- hence me being on these forums.

It's just puzzling to me how some people find a certain car ideal and then generalize it to "this car must be ideal for EVERYONE and therefore anyone who doesn't pick it is an idiot." The Hellcat was right for me at a certain stage of my life, but I've always understood that for most people, even most car enthusiasts, it isn't.

[Intimidator]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Just because you don't see the benefit in better handling where you drive, doesn't mean others don't. And that world is just as REAL as yours.

Then give me the Option of a 650 HP "track" car, or 800 STOCK Warrantied HP and less handling!

[Intimidator]

Originally Posted by HCT

I can't speak for all Hellcat owners but I can share my perspective: it's natural that Hellcat owners aren't talking about stuff like 'Ring times because the car is a dog on a road course.

Are you familiar with the phrase "self-selecting sample"? If you buy a Hellcat it's because you aren't heavily into road courses or canyon carving. If you're into those things you rule out the Hellcat pretty quickly. So it shouldn't be a surprise that Hellcat owners are super happy about what their cars do well and don't care about what their cars don't do well.



At least for me there's been no "change of focus" -- when I bought my car it was imperative I had room for actual adult-sized people to ride comfortably in the back. The car is my daily driver and practicality was a big concern. But looking forward a year or two, my kids are going to have their own cars so now I can downsize -- hence me being on these forums.

It's just puzzling to me how some people find a certain car ideal and then generalize it to "this car must be ideal for EVERYONE and therefore anyone who doesn't pick it is an idiot." The Hellcat was right for me at a certain stage of my life, but I've always understood that for most people, even most car enthusiasts, it isn't.

But for the "PIG" that the Hell Kitty is, it actually rides and handles well, and is ALOT more comfortable for most....it's just not a Full "TRACK" car!

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by HCT

I can't speak for all Hellcat owners but I can share my perspective: it's natural that Hellcat owners aren't talking about stuff like 'Ring times because the car is a dog on a road course.

Are you familiar with the phrase "self-selecting sample"? If you buy a Hellcat it's because you aren't heavily into road courses or canyon carving. If you're into those things you rule out the Hellcat pretty quickly. So it shouldn't be a surprise that Hellcat owners are super happy about what their cars do well and don't care about what their cars don't do well.



At least for me there's been no "change of focus" -- when I bought my car it was imperative I had room for actual adult-sized people to ride comfortably in the back. The car is my daily driver and practicality was a big concern. But looking forward a year or two, my kids are going to have their own cars so now I can downsize -- hence me being on these forums.

It's just puzzling to me how some people find a certain car ideal and then generalize it to "this car must be ideal for EVERYONE and therefore anyone who doesn't pick it is an idiot." The Hellcat was right for me at a certain stage of my life, but I've always understood that for most people, even most car enthusiasts, it isn't.

Thank you! I agree and absolutely respect everyone making a choice and owning a HC (or any other car of any type for that matter), they are great cars and when I see one on the road, I don't ignore it, just like I don't ignore a Z06 (or stingray), or new GT or Shelby.

I'd be lucky to be in any of them.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Intimidator

Right Now...as a GM loyalist, I am extremely disappointed with the ZL1 numbers...hopefully GM is holding something back....but I doubt it!
I am a 6th gen Camaro 2SS owner...I have not found the cars handling limit yet, mainly because of the seats! I do not have a course close, but plenty of winding County roads and on/off ramps.
BUT I DO have plenty of 1/4 mile race tracks.
If I can't find the handling limit on a 2SS on the street, then why would I want more handling?
I just got brutalized by a local Hell Kitty...so do I win a battle because my 2SS handles just a tad better, even though the seats stop me from getting it there?
I don't want a damn Z28, I want a Weekend Street Warrior from GM.
The REAL WORLD for most of us, is cruising around town, playing on ramps, rural curves, and light to light...or the local track.
Why would I spend money on a new ZL1, if it will get it's ass handed to it in REAL WORLD driving against the Kitty.
Hell, if they update the Kitty, and the GT500 comes to fruition, GM is third again, in the Numbers that matter to me!

This ZL1 has better handling argument is getting as stale as arguing if Pro Mods are Street Cars...I consider a Street Car anything you can title! I could care less if the ZL1 can keep up with the Z28 on the circle I want track...the ZL1 USED TO BE the "Boulevard Brawler"!
I want a damn 800hp Factory Beast! Cause you know that's what Ford and the Kitty Maker are gonna do!

I'll leave the handling comments to what others have already said but I understand your point. But what the hell were you expecting racing a Hellcat? It has 700+hp and you don't even have 500hp.

Anyways, you are disappointed in the numbers for the ZL1. Let's put things in perspective.

From C&D '15 HC A8:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...at-test-review

Standing ¼-mile: 11.7 sec @ 126 mph

From MT: Another A8
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge...at-first-test/

Standing ¼-mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph


Now according to GM press numbers (which have been conservative the last few cars they have released):

Quarter-mile in 11.4 seconds at 127 mph

Let that sink in for a min. Not so much the times as the MPH. Then let it sink in that the HC is undertired and has horrible issues launching with anything short of DRs/slicks. So no the new ZL1 will not get it's ass handed to it in real world driving. Most likely ZL1s will neck and neck and it will come down to who is the better driver. And stock to stock, expect the ZL1 to leave the Kitty on the line spinning.

If you wanted to blow the HC out of the water on the track, accept the reality. It takes a hell of a lot power, weight loss, and/or pure drag tires to go that much faster. We are very much at the limits of what a RWD car can do and still meet federal safety and emissions requirements. Dodge knows this all to well. They had to detune the HC to meet emissions. And I got news for you, they aren't find anymore power without a DI swap which they have no money or development in so far. There are rumors the HEMIs are gone after 2020. FCA has abandoned small cars and CAFE penalties just increased 150%. FCA has no trans development of their own and are stuck with the 8 and 9 speed units ZF developed. ZF has admitted they want no part of 10 speeds or higher and will just change ratios to meet CAFE targets. So say goodbye to another advantage FCA has used with more aggressive gearing. To meet CAFE targets, FCA has to radically change their approach. All this means you will not see the HC beyond the current gen platforms in the sense it is now. Smaller, lighter cars with turbo 4 and turbo 6s may be all they will offer in the new gen. Maybe a smaller more efficient turbo V8 could become the new HC then, but the future of Dodge is bleak at this point.

Ford is the real threat if they are working on a TT V8, but we have yet to see what's coming for the ZR1 too. Also Ford still hasn't said anything about a GT500 at this point. Which is strange considering the 6th gen was released in '15 and here the Camaro just came out last year and already has ZL1 revealed.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by Intimidator

Then give me the Option of a 650 HP "track" car, or 800 STOCK Warrantied HP and less handling!

Ok, I can dig that sentiment. But I think GM has for the past couple decades been pretty consistent on aiming towards overall performance vs. huge HP numbers alone.

I certainly wouldn't hate on anyone if they wanted a TT V8 or something.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I'll leave the handling comments to what others have already said but I understand your point. But what the hell were you expecting racing a Hellcat? It has 700+hp and you don't even have 500hp.

Anyways, you are disappointed in the numbers for the ZL1. Let's put things in perspective.

From C&D '15 HC A8:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...at-test-review

Standing ¼-mile: 11.7 sec @ 126 mph

From MT: Another A8
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge...at-first-test/

Standing ¼-mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph


Now according to GM press numbers (which have been conservative the last few cars they have released):

Quarter-mile in 11.4 seconds at 127 mph

Let that sink in for a min. Not so much the times as the MPH. Then let it sink in that the HC is undertired and has horrible issues launching with anything short of DRs/slicks. So no the new ZL1 will not get it's ass handed to it in real world driving. Most likely ZL1s will neck and neck and it will come down to who is the better driver. And stock to stock, expect the ZL1 to leave the Kitty on the line spinning.

If you wanted to blow the HC out of the water on the track, accept the reality. It takes a hell of a lot power, weight loss, and/or pure drag tires to go that much faster. We are very much at the limits of what a RWD car can do and still meet federal safety and emissions requirements. Dodge knows this all to well. They had to detune the HC to meet emissions. And I got news for you, they aren't find anymore power without a DI swap which they have no money or development in so far. There are rumors the HEMIs are gone after 2020. FCA has abandoned small cars and CAFE penalties just increased 150%. FCA has no trans development of their own and are stuck with the 8 and 9 speed units ZF developed. To meet CAFE targets, FCA has to radically change their approach. All this means you will not see the HC beyond the current gen platforms in the sense it is now. Smaller, lighter cars with turbo 4 and turbo 6s may be all they will offer in the new gen. Maybe a smaller more efficient turbo V8 could become the new HC then, but the future of Dodge is bleak at this point.

Ford is the real threat if they are working on a TT V8, but we have yet to see what's coming for the ZR1 too. Also Ford still hasn't said anything about a GT500 at this point. Which is strange considering the 6th gen was released in '15 and here the Camaro just came out last year and already has ZL1 revealed.

Yup, already heard rumors the HC will be ZL1 size by 2020.

[Intimidator]

I tried to reserve Judgment on the Kitty Twins until I drove one....I've driven ALOT of cars in my 55 years and always worked in the Auto Industry.
Honestly, the Kitty Challenger doesn't handle much worse than my 2SS, you really have to have throttle control all the time....But the INSANE amount of non-stopping power is just electrifying!
My buddy has 315 DR's on, and you still have to "drive it"!
I think I'm gonna wait on the ZL1 and see if the Kitty Moves to the Fiat Platform....that Motor right now is just ridiculous!

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Intimidator

I tried to reserve Judgment on the Kitty Twins until I drove one....I've driven ALOT of cars in my 55 years and always worked in the Auto Industry.
Honestly, the Kitty Challenger doesn't handle much worse than my 2SS, you really have to have throttle control all the time....But the INSANE amount of non-stopping power is just electrifying!
My buddy has 315 DR's on, and you still have to "drive it"!
I think I'm gonna wait on the ZL1 and see if the Kitty Moves to the Fiat Platform....that Motor right now is just ridiculous!

A VW GTI doesn't handle bad either, but is closer in handling ability to the HC than the HC is to a 6th gen SS. Let that sink in. It's not that either car is bad, but there are clear and immediately noticeable differences in driving dynamics between the two. Most people just won't be able to fully utilize those differences short of a road course. Just like someone would not be able to fully utilize the power of the HC short of the strip.....legally and safely.