[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

rear seat space 'far superior' in a 4th gen,
lol i had 3rd and 4thgens and i had to put my seat forward to get people back there, and also if you were an adult sitting back there it was like sitting in a hole.

so i'll never be getting nostalgic for back seat room in past gens.

I use the back seat all the time for my kids for short trips (otherwise I'd never be able to drive the car) and the rear seat space (particularly in the shin/foot area) is substantially roomier in a 4th gen. I didn't think it could get worse than a 4th gen until I first checked out the 6th gens. I ultimately went through with buying my '17 and made it work, but was very close to considering the rear seat room a showstopper and looking into other cars. When someone's behind me, I need to move my seat into an uncomfortable position and my wife does too. I wanted the excellent performance and chassis dynamics badly enough that I'm willing to deal with that sacrifice in comfort, but I don't think many folks with kids would overlook that. When we take the whole family in my car for any trips (even very short trips), my wife is definitely not happy with the purchase. For reference, kids are 8 and 10 yr old, I'm 6'2" and wife is around 5'7".

The 6th gen back seat is probably classified by most as being unusable. The Challenger's back seat area is huge in comparison and from what I recall when checking them out, even the Mustang's is at least as big as the 4th gen and somewhat usable.

[1fujifilm]

Originally Posted by Hops

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/01...arter-2019-q4/


Found this a little surprising because it always seems like the discussion surrounds falling sales. Nice to see things go the other direction. How is the 20% Mustang sales increase explained? The Japanese cars are taking a major hit, but i think some of that can be explained by the oldness of the 370z and brz/86.

Q4 does not make a full year, the year to date is still underwater and tells the true story.
Why is Mustang up? How about the ability to get 25% off in the 4th quarter like any other company. F-150's were 33% off too.
Trying to raise cash at Ford, Chev must not need it ripping off people with those lame Blazers at 50k. Woman at work bought one, she said she got 3k off 51k MSRP, wow she is getting screwed at trade in time

Bear

[90503]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh and because you don't give two shits about golf clubs doesn't mean it's not important for others. For me it was the big no on the test drive. Why do you think GM made such a big deal about getting two sets of golf clubs in the C8 Corvette? Because it's important.

I gotta back up Number 3 on this. I would have to say it is pretty embarrassing for Camaro to be outdone in the golf club department by Corvette. I once felt like many of you that who cares about golf and golf clubs. If you enjoy golf, the Gen 6 Camaro is not a good choice, and likely a deal-breaker.

Corvette making points with the C8 for being able to hold two sets is brilliant marketing and advertising (lol) for the Corvette. Golf = Money. You couldn't find a better segment to be popular with than golfers.

I went with a rear seat delete in my 5th Gen for track purposes and.....golf!

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Buick exists for China.....where GM makes a crap load of money on Buicks. Almost 1,000,000 units if I recall correctly.

And as for Aztec? A really interesting story on how that came to be. But everyone forgets the sister vehicle, the Rendezvous, sold really well. Wait that was a Buick.

Of course bringing back the Trans Am as an offset would be what? 25,000 units based on Camaro sales? Not sure that's a good trade.

Oh and because you don't give two shits about golf clubs doesn't mean it's not important for others. For me it was the big no on the test drive. Why do you think GM made such a big deal about getting two sets of golf clubs in the C8 Corvette? Because it's important.

I've never heard of a Rendezvous before. Is that another Chinese made vehicle? I don't live in China so I don't know what the Chinese buy. I suppose when compared to a Rickshaw it's a step up.
On the Trans Am, it was a reference to styling which the Buick grossly lacks. That said, there was a time in the mid eighties when Buick made a nice car (for the time), the Grand National. It was an exercise in technology
for the time when considering the government interference on auto manufacturing overall. Unfortunately the GN was a short lived program. Prior to those dark days each platform had it's own engine.
When you say GM knows what it is doing I think your claim is blindly stated because I can name a number of models which were pretty much DOA.
GM needs to improve and properly market what they sell. When you piss off a buyer he is likely less prone to give you a second opportunity. That is what GM might focus on.. LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMER, PERIOD! Why build the pos 8 spd transmission for years before you change it? That is an unacceptable practice. Always have a plan B on the shelf.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

i'd just like a tally of the number of times i've read 'golf clubs'
.

LOL obviously you aren't a golfer. I'm not even good at golf but getting my clubs in the car is important lol.

Originally Posted by 90503

What I see on TV has been constant ads for Cadillacs. Ongoing for months and months. I would like to know how that money spent could possibly be justified with the dismal sales figures for Cadillac. TV commercials....everyday, every channel for Cadillac.

Using the rationale for not advertising the Camaro on TV, Cadillac ads seem to be the all time colossal waste of money. Camaro has outsold all Cadillac models with zero TV ads.


https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...3-gmsales.html (Click on deliveries PDF)


If Camaro needs CT4/5 to stay alive, I think they got it backwards. Cadillac needs the Camaro for the Caddies to stay alive. The Camaros should have TV ads, not Cadillac.

Cadillac advertises just about everything in their line up though, and almost all luxury makes do the same.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I won't deny the reality of small back seat space (although my kids never complain and I'm 6'2", too), but the thing is, this is a coupe. There is no rear door. Who realistically wants to use a coupe for daily kid or multiple passenger transportation in 2020, when these people would have climb into the back seat and then out to exit the vehicle? Is a Mustang or a Challenger really that much better with their 1-2" extra rear seat legroom?
.

Not many, that's why it needs to be just good enough even if it is a second vehicle. Say in a pinch I need to use it to take the kids to whatever needs to be good enough.

Where the extra room can really make a difference is with guys with younger kids like me. Car seats take up a lot of room, and every little bit extra helps there.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Visibility is a similar semi-strawman, it's marginally better in other coupes, but is that really, honestly, a dealbreaker, for a sports car with a lot of power that handles so supremely, one that has blind spot monitoring and, in newer models, rear camera view? Is stopping a yard behind the line at the stoplight or getting used to the "widescreen" front view such a big deal, as in, a factor that some investment in advertising couldn't overcome?

The visibility thing to me is this. Take someone that isn't used to these kind of cars but wants one. All the reviews mention bad visibility, so it's already in their mind. Then they go on a ten minute test drive and have no chance to "get used to it". It makes a bad first impression which to me can really turn buyers off.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Trunk size, and more importantly, the small trunk opening (wonder why GM didn't want to split the taillights) can definitely be a near insurmountable problem in the real world, so I'd tend to agree that it does reduce the target audience somewhat, even though folding down the rear seats mitigates the issue a bit.

That to me is the biggest issue. I am active. I golf, I play softball. I need that stuff in the trunk, especially with a kid in a car seat, can't put the seats down to mitigate the issue, because as far as I know the Camaro doesn't have split folding rear seats. so that extra 4 or 4.5 cubic feet of trunk space the Mustang has over the Camaro for someone like me could be what seals the deal.

Originally Posted by 90503

I gotta back up Number 3 on this. I would have to say it is pretty embarrassing for Camaro to be outdone in the golf club department by Corvette. I once felt like many of you that who cares about golf and golf clubs. If you enjoy golf, the Gen 6 Camaro is not a good choice, and likely a deal-breaker.

Corvette making points with the C8 for being able to hold two sets is brilliant marketing and advertising (lol) for the Corvette. Golf = Money. You couldn't find a better segment to be popular with than golfers.

I went with a rear seat delete in my 5th Gen for track purposes and.....golf!

GOLF!

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

I've never heard of a Rendezvous before. Is that another Chinese made vehicle? I don't live in China so I don't know what the Chinese buy. I suppose when compared to a Rickshaw it's a step up.
On the Trans Am, it was a reference to styling which the Buick grossly lacks. That said, there was a time in the mid eighties when Buick made a nice car (for the time), the Grand National. It was an exercise in technology
for the time when considering the government interference on auto manufacturing overall. Unfortunately the GN was a short lived program. Prior to those dark days each platform had it's own engine.
When you say GM knows what it is doing I think your claim is blindly stated because I can name a number of models which were pretty much DOA.
GM needs to improve and properly market what they sell. When you piss off a buyer he is likely less prone to give you a second opportunity. That is what GM might focus on.. LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMER, PERIOD! Why build the pos 8 spd transmission for years before you change it? That is an unacceptable practice. Always have a plan B on the shelf.

The Rendezvous was sold from 02 to 07 and I am pretty sure they used Tiger Woods in a ad campaign lol

[Bhobbs]

The Camaro is failing again because the Corvette is a glass ceiling to Camaro and the design team made poor choices.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

I've never heard of a Rendezvous before. Is that another Chinese made vehicle? I don't live in China so I don't know what the Chinese buy. I suppose when compared to a Rickshaw it's a step up.
On the Trans Am, it was a reference to styling which the Buick grossly lacks. That said, there was a time in the mid eighties when Buick made a nice car (for the time), the Grand National. It was an exercise in technology
for the time when considering the government interference on auto manufacturing overall. Unfortunately the GN was a short lived program. Prior to those dark days each platform had it's own engine.
When you say GM knows what it is doing I think your claim is blindly stated because I can name a number of models which were pretty much DOA.
GM needs to improve and properly market what they sell. When you piss off a buyer he is likely less prone to give you a second opportunity. That is what GM might focus on.. LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMER, PERIOD! Why build the pos 8 spd transmission for years before you change it? That is an unacceptable practice. Always have a plan B on the shelf.

You don't realize it but you are making my point for me.

Products that arrive DOA are NOT due to lack of TV advertisement, which is the whole point of this current discussion. A TV ad will not fix a product with limitations, be it styling or simply too focused on a specific customer e.g. Camaro.

Do you think a cool, bad a$$ TV commercial would have made up for that 8 speed transmission you refer to? The argument people on here are making is, "he77 yeah it would". But of course simply logic as you are pointing out suggests it would not.

It's simply the product. All the coolest TV ads in the world aren't going to get Cadillac to outsell BMW, MB or Audi or even Lexus. For example when GM did the ATS, they did the same thing they did with the Camaro, slammed the roof and raised the belt line for the cool look Ed Whelburn wanted. Result? Poor visibility and no rear seat head room. The CTS? It was simply the result of trying to make an E Class Car from a C Class. The floor had to be raised higher simply because they put bigger wheels on a smaller car architecture. In both cases, the cars horribly underperformed in sales. Only China volume as Cadillac is actually kind of gaining steam there, is helping. ATS in it's best year did maybe 25,000 units. It's planning volume was 100,000. It was NOT due to the lack of TV ads.

You are going WAYYYY back in time to claim each model had it's own engine. That goes back to when GM was sooo big the government tried to break it up. Yep, GM had a Chevy, Olds and Buick Small Block V8 and Pontiac, Olds, Chevy and Cadillac had unique Big Blocks. GM actually got sued many years ago when someone realized they got a Chevy Small Block in their Oldsmobile. But that's like 30 plus years ago. But hey if the Aztec is fair game from 20 odd years ago, I suppose anything GM did that was stupid is fair game.

And if you don't remember the Rendezvous you are either too young or simply weren't paying attention. Not Chinese made product LOL, that's the current Buick Envision, but it was the 3 row version of the Aztec. So as much as everyone likes to make fun of the Aztec (fun story, I had a CTF driving to Florida and a family passed us and the kid in the backseat was laughing his butt off) it's sister vehicle did quite well.


So the Camaro isn't selling poorly because of the lack of TV advertising, and it isn't selling poorly because the people behind it are stupid or uninterested.

It's the product. And it was perfectly designed for just the people they asked. As I said, if you want to fault GM for poor Camaro sales, it's simply they asked the wrong people what they wanted in the Gen6 Camaro. And as I said earlier, from what I understand, they only asked a select group of Camaro faithful. And that's why we got the best Camaro of all time, because they unanimously said MOHRRRRRR. But not a Camaro with wider appeal, hence the sales.

Remember, the number 1 car in the segment selling almost double Camaro volumes does NOT do TV ads. And the Gen5 that actually hit 100,000 units in 1 year, did not do TV advertisements.

Let me just quote Mrs. Number 3 here (Bachelors degree in Marketing, Masters degree in Marketing and Marketing Manager for Corvette earlier in her career working very close with Camaro Marketing Manger Scott Settlemire, you know him, resurrected the Camaro, yeah that guy)

"Everyone thinks they know how to do marketing".

And if you worked in Product Development in the auto industry like I have for pushing 40 years (yikes) you would fully understand that quote, as even engineers think they know better (we don't lol). So we laugh and laugh in our household when we read, "if GM was just smart enough to do TV commercials for the Camaro they would sell like crazy", mostly because we know those people you all think are stupid and we still call some of them our friends. I can assure you they aren't stupid, or lacking experience or missing the desire to sell more Camaros. And I can assure you they have more passion for the Camaro and Corvette in their pinky fingers than anyone in this thread.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You don't realize it but you are making my point for me.

Products that arrive DOA are NOT due to lack of TV advertisement, which is the whole point of this current discussion. A TV ad will not fix a product with limitations, be it styling or simply too focused on a specific customer e.g. Camaro.

Do you think a cool, bad a$$ TV commercial would have made up for that 8 speed transmission you refer to? The argument people on here are making is, "he77 yeah it would". But of course simply logic as you are pointing out suggests it would not.

It's simply the product. All the coolest TV ads in the world aren't going to get Cadillac to outsell BMW, MB or Audi or even Lexus. For example when GM did the ATS, they did the same thing they did with the Camaro, slammed the roof and raised the belt line for the cool look Ed Whelburn wanted. Result? Poor visibility and no rear seat head room. The CTS? It was simply the result of trying to make an E Class Car from a C Class. The floor had to be raised higher simply because they put bigger wheels on a smaller car architecture. In both cases, the cars horribly underperformed in sales. Only China volume as Cadillac is actually kind of gaining steam there, is helping. ATS in it's best year did maybe 25,000 units. It's planning volume was 100,000. It was NOT due to the lack of TV ads.

You are going WAYYYY back in time to claim each model had it's own engine. That goes back to when GM was sooo big the government tried to break it up. Yep, GM had a Chevy, Olds and Buick Small Block V8 and Pontiac, Olds, Chevy and Cadillac had unique Big Blocks. GM actually got sued many years ago when someone realized they got a Chevy Small Block in their Oldsmobile. But that's like 30 plus years ago. But hey if the Aztec is fair game from 20 odd years ago, I suppose anything GM did that was stupid is fair game.

And if you don't remember the Rendezvous you are either too young or simply weren't paying attention. Not Chinese made product LOL, that's the current Buick Envision, but it was the 3 row version of the Aztec. So as much as everyone likes to make fun of the Aztec (fun story, I had a CTF driving to Florida and a family passed us and the kid in the backseat was laughing his butt off) it's sister vehicle did quite well.


So the Camaro isn't selling poorly because of the lack of TV advertising, and it isn't selling poorly because the people behind it are stupid or uninterested.

It's the product. And it was perfectly designed for just the people they asked. As I said, if you want to fault GM for poor Camaro sales, it's simply they asked the wrong people what they wanted in the Gen6 Camaro. And as I said earlier, from what I understand, they only asked a select group of Camaro faithful. And that's why we got the best Camaro of all time, because they unanimously said MOHRRRRRR. But not a Camaro with wider appeal, hence the sales.

Remember, the number 1 car in the segment selling almost double Camaro volumes does NOT do TV ads. And the Gen5 that actually hit 100,000 units in 1 year, did not do TV advertisements.

Let me just quote Mrs. Number 3 here (Bachelors degree in Marketing, Masters degree in Marketing and Marketing Manager for Corvette earlier in her career working very close with Camaro Marketing Manger Scott Settlemire, you know him, resurrected the Camaro, yeah that guy)

"Everyone thinks they know how to do marketing".

And if you worked in Product Development in the auto industry like I have for pushing 40 years (yikes) you would fully understand that quote, as even engineers think they know better (we don't lol). So we laugh and laugh in our household when we read, "if GM was just smart enough to do TV commercials for the Camaro they would sell like crazy", mostly because we know those people you all think are stupid and we still call some of them our friends. I can assure you they aren't stupid, or lacking experience or missing the desire to sell more Camaros. And I can assure you they have more passion for the Camaro and Corvette in their pinky fingers than anyone in this thread.

My understanding Tom Peters was in charge of the 6th Gen design, not Ed Wellburn.