[Doc]

Factory freaks DID exist, and they were called freaks because of how they came together. All the parts made for a car are made within a certain tolerance range of blueprint spec. For example let's say parts are built to a 10% tolerance, meaning they can be anywhere from 5% below spec, to 5% above spec. All the many parts being pulled out of the parts bins during assembly are going to be somewhere within this range.

The worst case scenario is a car that gets parts that are the farthest apart from spec; a mix of -5 and +5 parts. Those are the cars that are going to have problems in fitment and performance. Those are often what become known as "lemons". Then there are the freaks; the car that wins the parts lottery during assembly and gets a majority of parts that are either blueprint spec (there are some parts like that in each bin) or extremely close; within 1%, which would be anywhere from -.5 to +.5; virtually blueprint. It is theoretically possible to have a car that gets all parts that are actually blueprint spec, but the odds of that are literally astronomical.

A car like that is nearly perfect; built with and to blueprint specifications. These are the "golden" cars that perform better than anything else that comes off the line. There's no way to order one or make one; you'd have to be there at the factory and be able to hand measure and choose each part in each bin to make sure it's a blueprint spec part. In other words, unless you're the big cheese in charge of a plant and could order something like that to be done, it ain't gonna happen. That's why those cars are called freaks; they're just a freak of the luck of the draw during the mass manufacturing process.

Those were the "old days" and all that can still apply to everything today except the engines; today's engines are another matter. Today's engines are SAE certified which means they have to be (I believe) within 3% of spec; meaning no less than 1.5% and no more than 1.5% of the stated power rating. They go through a stringent QC process to ensure they meet this certification. For example, if an engine is rated at 450 hp, it has to be within 6.75 hp of that rating.

Computer aided/controlled design and manufacturing have dramatically improved manufacturing processes, and have enabled mass manufacturing of things that simply weren't possible before. As far as performance and features, right now these are literally tomorrow's "good old days".

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I get what you are saying i just have my doubts it can be done over 150,000 motors and +- 2% of 455 HP. If one motor can run perfect for 100,000 miles and the next one can blow up 750 miles its not a perfect system.

It can be done over 150,000 motors... almost.
Let's say the defect rate of engine parts is 1 in 10 million. Sounds like there should never be an engine failure, right? Statistically, this is not impossible; quality control by parts suppliers is very good, otherwise they do no stay suppliers very long. So let's say (for illustration purposes) there are 600 parts in an engine, and 150,000 engines are built. That's 600 X 150,000 = 90 million parts in those engines. If only 1 in 10 million parts are defective, that means there are 9 defective parts in those engine with the potential to blow up at 750 miles. (I'm sure the numbers I used are not accurate, but I hope you get the idea.)

On the flip side, the odds of a out of spec part (or parts) actually producing an engine with better than average performance? Yeah, right..

[trz174]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

Maybe you have a factory Hot Tune .

I suppose it’s possible. That said, the engine in my 16 2SS A8 was replaced at 8K miles and the car ran the same times with a new set of Goodyear stock take-offs. With good DA and a good track, anyone in a 6th Gen SS auto should be able to get consistent low 12’s and occasional high 11’s in bone stock condition. What is surprising is that so few people actually run their cars or don’t read the performance section of the manual. I drove a 19 2SS rental for the last two weeks and it felt the same as my 16 2SS in every way except the A10. I love that transmission in the SS and ZL1.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Doc

Factory freaks DID exist, and they were called freaks because of how they came together. All the parts made for a car are made within a certain tolerance range of blueprint spec. For example let's say parts are built to a 10% tolerance, meaning they can be anywhere from 5% below spec, to 5% above spec. All the many parts being pulled out of the parts bins during assembly are going to be somewhere within this range.

The worst case scenario is a car that gets parts that are the farthest apart from spec; a mix of -5 and +5 parts. Those are the cars that are going to have problems in fitment and performance. Those are often what become known as "lemons". Then there are the freaks; the car that wins the parts lottery during assembly and gets a majority of parts that are either blueprint spec (there are some parts like that in each bin) or extremely close; within 1%, which would be anywhere from -.5 to +.5; virtually blueprint. It is theoretically possible to have a car that gets all parts that are actually blueprint spec, but the odds of that are literally astronomical.

A car like that is nearly perfect; built with and to blueprint specifications. These are the "golden" cars that perform better than anything else that comes off the line. There's no way to order one or make one; you'd have to be there at the factory and be able to hand measure and choose each part in each bin to make sure it's a blueprint spec part. In other words, unless you're the big cheese in charge of a plant and could order something like that to be done, it ain't gonna happen. That's why those cars are called freaks; they're just a freak of the luck of the draw during the mass manufacturing process.

Those were the "old days" and all that can still apply to everything today except the engines; today's engines are another matter. Today's engines are SAE certified which means they have to be (I believe) within 3% of spec; meaning no less than 1.5% and no more than 1.5% of the stated power rating. They go through a stringent QC process to ensure they meet this certification. For example, if an engine is rated at 450 hp, it has to be within 6.75 hp of that rating.

Computer aided/controlled design and manufacturing have dramatically improved manufacturing processes, and have enabled mass manufacturing of things that simply weren't possible before. As far as performance and features, right now these are literally tomorrow's "good old days".

So being within 3% spec between LT1s means there could be a difference of 13.5 HP between any two Camaros , one being 448.25 HP VS 461.75 HP on the other end. Then put that 461.75 on a "Happy" dyno could equal a so called freak ?

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I get what you are saying i just have my doubts it can be done over 150,000 motors and +- 2% of 455 HP. If one motor can run perfect for 100,000 miles and the next one can blow up 750 miles its not a perfect system.

Well I get that part. My point is more directed to the fact that it doesn't seem possible to have a car faster then others with todays build quality. Equal parts..equal quality tolerances makes it pretty much impossible....maybe a slight variance in the factory tune is possible. But who knows.

[gringo]

Well, back in the not so old days, they did have "special" chip tunes for the vehicles sent to auto journalists. The ARAP tune bin for the late '80's Iroc-Z comes to mind. I wonder if they do something like that today.

[s346k]

i think it’s a perfect combo of enough loose parts. it happens, and probably more often than we think. to make a fair comparison each and every car must be ran under the same conditions and then compared. dynos are tuning tools, anyone who sees them differently is ignorant.

story time. inherent life long car guy here. grew up drag racing nhra stock class cars, etc etc. look high and low forever - buy my first ls1 car - 2000 z28 a4. 25k mile 1 owner. nice car. slow af. ran 14.1 @ 100 like xerox in stock form. i was bummed to say the least.

my now exwife buys a 99 ws6 m6 on a whim. bone stock. car ran 13.0 @ 109, bone stock. same track, same day. factory freak? idk. da was 2400’ and it was hot. i modded both cars. z28 went 12.0@ 112 with bolt ons and the ta never went to the track on drag radials. it was full weight with bolt ons, routinely pulled on lighter cars that trapped 114+. car went 90 in the 1/8. always picked up 26-27 on the top half.

back to my concurrence. the fast ones find you. they don’t have special tunes or hand asssmbled engines. they are a conglomeration of loose parts, finding a lucky someone who actually drives it and puts speculation to time slip.

[SJFGTO]

Originally Posted by s346k

i think it’s a perfect combo of enough loose parts. it happens, and probably more often than we think. to make a fair comparison each and every car must be ran under the same conditions and then compared. dynos are tuning tools, anyone who sees them differently is ignorant.

story time. inherent life long car guy here. grew up drag racing nhra stock class cars, etc etc. look high and low forever - buy my first ls1 car - 2000 z28 a4. 25k mile 1 owner. nice car. slow af. ran 14.1 @ 100 like xerox in stock form. i was bummed to say the least.

my now exwife buys a 99 ws6 m6 on a whim. bone stock. car ran 13.0 @ 109, bone stock. same track, same day. factory freak? idk. da was 2400’ and it was hot. i modded both cars. z28 went 12.0@ 112 with bolt ons and the ta never went to the track on drag radials. it was full weight with bolt ons, routinely pulled on lighter cars that trapped 114+. car went 90 in the 1/8. always picked up 26-27 on the top half.

back to my concurrence. the fast ones find you. they don’t have special tunes or hand asssmbled engines. they are a conglomeration of loose parts, finding a lucky someone who actually drives it and puts speculation to time slip.

"Enough loose parts" ??? It's like saying a unicorn has a glow in the dark horn. No unicorns, no factory freaks. Great mythology though.

[Doc]

"Loose parts" would produce a lemon. The factory freaks which were NOT common, were the result of precision fitment; not "loose parts". They were mostly defined by engine performance. Today's SAE certified engines essentially guarantee what in the old days would have been considered a freak because in the old days, the majority of engines would be somewhere below blueprint spec. This is why it was so easy to add power by adding things like an exhaust, intakes and such. You can't get the same big gains doing that today because the factory engines are extremely good now.

[s346k]

ever heard the term “loose is fast”? you guys ever build class engines? the slow car is the one perfectly in spec. everything can be explained to you guys but we can’t understand it for you.

[guapo]

Well I would say I have one its v6 50th but for some reason it does not have the stripes. I talked to the dealership and to there knowledge, all 50th should have had the stripes installed at the factory...It was not a special order, just a lot order...

[s346k]

Originally Posted by Doc

"Loose parts" would produce a lemon. The factory freaks which were NOT common, were the result of precision fitment; not "loose parts". They were mostly defined by engine performance. Today's SAE certified engines essentially guarantee what in the old days would have been considered a freak because in the old days, the majority of engines would be somewhere below blueprint spec. This is why it was so easy to add power by adding things like an exhaust, intakes and such. You can't get the same big gains doing that today because the factory engines are extremely good now.

”old day” factory freak cars had completely different parts altogether, not parts that were simply on the low end of tolerance. and your power gains statement is backwards. the engines now gain way more with bolt ons. not because the engines are perfectly built, simply because the stock parts are far better. factory freak goes out the window after modding. the car loses its luster and will perform the same as other similar mod cars.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by s346k

ever heard the term “loose is fast”? you guys ever build class engines? the slow car is the one perfectly in spec. everything can be explained to you guys but we can’t understand it for you.

My oh my... aren't we superior! lol

Originally Posted by s346k

”old day” factory freak cars had completely different parts altogether, not parts that were simply on the low end of tolerance. and your power gains statement is backwards. the engines now gain way more with bolt ons. not because the engines are perfectly built, simply because the stock parts are far better. factory freak goes out the window after modding. the car loses its luster and will perform the same as other similar mod cars.

"Loose is fast" was on old term for guys modifying engines; it was something they did in modifications to allow for motor oils to flow where needed. They used to use heavy weight oils to deal with the heat their modified engines produced. This was done mostly by racers for extreme high performance engines such as drag racing used. Here's the link to an excellent article from enginelabs.com that explains that old term, what it actually meant and did, and why it doesn't apply to today:

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ng-clearances/

In short, it talks about how "loose" was done by engine modifiers to compensate for the clearance issues of flexing cranks, rods and pistons under extreme power, and allow the less sophisticated oils of that time to still flow. Today's engines use far better alloys and vastly superior oils so "loose" isn't needed or used. Today, precision is the desired goal; precision and balanced.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by s346k

”old day” factory freak cars had completely different parts altogether, not parts that were simply on the low end of tolerance. and your power gains statement is backwards. the engines now gain way more with bolt ons. not because the engines are perfectly built, simply because the stock parts are far better. factory freak goes out the window after modding. the car loses its luster and will perform the same as other similar mod cars.

No, factory freaks did NOT have completely different parts; those were specials that were either custom ordered, or 'special' engines that the guys at the factory put together by hand for various reasons; they were not regular production line engines. They would also do this sometimes with transmissions and differentials. Those 'specials' had different markings on them too. They might look like a regular unit on the outside, but the markings and identifiers on them are different and aren't found in the parts catalogs. They were never production line units.

I don't know what kind of "bolt ons" you're talking about, but the typical cold air intake and exhaust that in the old days would add 25-40 hp, now add maybe 10-15 hp on today's engines. Even less on small displacement engines. Unless you're talking about modifying the engine internally, "bolt ons" don't add as much today compared to the past because the factories are doing a much better job of squeezing out performance in order to meet regulations and CAFE requirements.