[semif18]

So here is a question. Even if you replace the CAI with the original intake, can the dealer tell through codes that the MAF sensor was reading differently for a period of time and deduce that a CAI was on the car?

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by semif18

So here is a question. Even if you replace the CAI with the original intake, can the dealer tell through codes that the MAF sensor was reading differently for a period of time and deduce that a CAI was on the car?

They could do that bit they'd have to prove that there was an aftermarket CAI on the car. They can show you the data but they'd have to back up the data with physical proof it was swapped.

Like I said, this is what they are supposed to do but sometimes they don't because they either know that the customer will take their word or know that even if the customer takes then to court, they'll just draw the hearings out to where you'll go into financial distress.

Much like how VW diesel emissions went. It took more than 5 years before they admitted fault. They have the lawyers and will push it out until you bow out or they can't make up anymore excuses.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

But they, the manufacturer, has to PROVE that the oil catch can, cold air intake or axle back exhaust caused the issue. Its listed in the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, clearly. The Manufacturer cannot just say "You added an (insert aftermarket part) and your warranty is void". That's illegal per the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

The key words here are “after market part”. The whole point of the Magnuson-Moss act was to keep manufacturers from voiding the warranty if you didn’t use their replacement parts. In other words, it keeps GM from voiding your warranty if on your next oil change you install a Mobil I oil filter instead of an AC Delco. Or you replace the brake pads with ones from Powerstop. It does not cover making a modification to the OEMs original design.

Installing a Roto-Fab cold air intake modifies GMs original intake design. They are not obligated in any way to honor the warranty if your engine drops a valve. How can they, they haven’t certified the reliability of their powertrain with a Roto-Fab cold air intake.

Before approving any major powertrain repair under warranty, GM will ask the dealer for a photo of the engine bay. You can bet if they see a 3rd party cold air intake installed, your powertrain warranty will be flagged void.

[semif18]

Originally Posted by hawk02

The key words here are “after market part”. The whole point of the Magnuson-Moss act was to keep manufacturers from voiding the warranty if you didn’t use their replacement parts. In other words, it keeps GM from voiding your warranty if on your next oil change you install a Mobil I oil filter instead of an AC Delco. Or you replace the brake pads with ones from Powerstop. It does not cover making a modification to the OEMs original design.

Installing a Roto-Fab cold air intake modifies GMs original intake design. They are not obligated in any way to honor the warranty if your engine drops a valve. How can they, they haven’t certified the reliability of their powertrain with a Roto-Fab cold air intake.

Before approving any major powertrain repair under warranty, GM will ask the dealer for a photo of the engine bay. You can bet if they see a 3rd party cold air intake installed, your powertrain warranty will be flagged void.

Just a comment, and I'm absolutely not trying to knock your post, sincerely, because my assumption is that you truly have the best intentions. Bear with me because this will be a little bit psychology 101. You make a declarative statement of fact about what GM WILL do. If you are the GM rep (or someone in that department) who processes warranty claims then you absolutely have a leg to stand on and your statement is valid. Or if you are a lawyer who has experience with these types of warranty claims then you also have a leg to stand on. If not then all you can say is "I think this is what will happen......." Your statement does not jive with what my local Chevy dealer said when I asked very specifically if a CAI would void the powertrain warranty. What I got back was a reasonable answer that to me makes sense. They said, "It could possibly void the warranty on parts it directly interacts with." So the first question is obviously what parts does a CAI interact with? I don't know the answer. The blower? The MAF? What else? And that's really my bigger point. Unless you have direct knowledge and experience with this issue then all you can do is make an educated guess. We are all enthusiasts and we ask these questions on the forums to get what we think is good information from fellow enthusiasts. Of course all of us want that "guarantee", but that's not gonna happen. It's a risk/reward proposition that we each have to weigh. I personally think the risk is very low, first off that the engine is gonna "blow up" or "throw a rod" and second that my local dealer is gonna dig hard to find out if I had a CAI (I would change it back to stock before taking it in). The reward to me is pretty nice. A relatively low cost part that enhances the car in a cool way. Not significant, but to me the sound, the crisper throttle response, the look. But that's me. Others won't care and that's fine.

Cold Air Inductions has a pretty definitive statement front and center on their website that says a CAI will not void a warranty. It's in their FAQs section.
Anyone can look it up. We can go all day back and forth talking about GM lawyers vs Cold Air Inductions vs what we think. Bottom line is none of us truly KNOW 100% what will happen. Every case will be different, dealers will be different. Some are mod friendly is my understanding, some aren't.

So my final point would be if there is someone who actually is a lawyer that has experience with warranty claims or someone here works at GM that can give a more definitive answer about what would happen then please pipe up. Otherwise I would recommend people stay away from declarative statements about what would happen.

Having said all that, I think your mindset is probably a smart one to go with. Assume the worst case scenario. If my engine blows up and GM denies my claim because I had a CAI in the car (that they were able to determine only through codes) then I'll buy a new motor. My wife will be pissed at me for a bit and I'll never put a CAI in again, but I'm willing to go that far.

Again, sincerely, you make some very well thought out statements in your post. I just had an issue that it was presented as factual/100% what would happen.

[semif18]

Here is a repost of what Cold Air Inductions has on their website (I have their system in my car, VERY nice!)

Are they wrong? I don't know........

[semif18]

Just checked the Roto Fab website and they don't go as far as Cold Air Inductions. They say to check with your local dealer for any warranty implications.

K&N aligns with Cold Air Inductions. They explicitly state that a Cold Air Intake system will not void the factory warranty.

So I go back to my post earlier. Ask your dealer, they are the ones you will be dealing with. That will be your answer.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. Any manufacturer will have to prove that whatever mod you did to your vehicle or wherever else, caused it to have an issue.

FYI. It's also illegal for those void warranty stickers to be put on anything. Big companies like Microsoft have lost again and again in court over those stickers on their products.

Pretty much this.

[SJFGTO]

No mod will automatically “void” your warranty. The dealer/ GM must articulate a factual causal connection between the unapproved mod and the problem at issue. That will depend on the mod, the problem and the dealer. There is no cookie cutter answer. If an owner brings a lawsuit alleging breach of warranty, the owner bears the ultimate burden of proof that the mod did not cause the problem and the repair is covered by the warranty, hence there was a breach of the warranty contract. The dealer’s defense would be that there was a causal connection. The dealer has the burden of persuasion in court, the owner, as the plaintiff, has the ultimate burden of proof. This is all just high brow analysis because of all the variables involved starting with the simple fact that different dealers will handle the same issue differently, especially with a low risk mod like a CAI.

[semif18]

Originally Posted by SJFGTO

No mod will automatically “void” your warranty. The dealer/ GM must articulate a factual causal connection between the unapproved mod and the problem at issue. That will depend on the mod, the problem and the dealer. There is no cookie cutter answer. If an owner brings a lawsuit alleging breach of warranty, the owner bears the ultimate burden of proof that the mod did not cause the problem and the repair is covered by the warranty, hence there was a breach of the warranty contract. The dealer’s defense would be that there was a causal connection. The dealer has the burden of persuasion in court, the owner, as the plaintiff, has the ultimate burden of proof. This is all just high brow analysis because of all the variables involved starting with the simple fact that different dealers will handle the same issue differently, especially with a low risk mod like a CAI.

Well said!

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by SJFGTO

No mod will automatically “void” your warranty. The dealer/ GM must articulate a factual causal connection between the unapproved mod and the problem at issue. That will depend on the mod, the problem and the dealer. There is no cookie cutter answer. If an owner brings a lawsuit alleging breach of warranty, the owner bears the ultimate burden of proof that the mod did not cause the problem and the repair is covered by the warranty, hence there was a breach of the warranty contract. The dealer’s defense would be that there was a causal connection. The dealer has the burden of persuasion in court, the owner, as the plaintiff, has the ultimate burden of proof. This is all just high brow analysis because of all the variables involved starting with the simple fact that different dealers will handle the same issue differently, especially with a low risk mod like a CAI.

I still believe that the manufacturer, as well as the consumer, still has to prove it was the aftermarket part that caused the issue and just say it was because it wasn't a factory component when they take it to court. But as I mentioned, consumers don't really go through with the hearings as it is expensive and time consuming while the manufacturer can take their time and have their lawyers deal with it while they still make money.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by semif18

Just a comment, and I'm absolutely not trying to knock your post, sincerely, because my assumption is that you truly have the best intentions. Bear with me because this will be a little bit psychology 101. You make a declarative statement of fact about what GM WILL do. If you are the GM rep (or someone in that department) who processes warranty claims then you absolutely have a leg to stand on and your statement is valid. Or if you are a lawyer who has experience with these types of warranty claims then you also have a leg to stand on. If not then all you can say is "I think this is what will happen......." Your statement does not jive with what my local Chevy dealer said when I asked very specifically if a CAI would void the powertrain warranty. What I got back was a reasonable answer that to me makes sense. They said, "It could possibly void the warranty on parts it directly interacts with." So the first question is obviously what parts does a CAI interact with? I don't know the answer. The blower? The MAF? What else? And that's really my bigger point. Unless you have direct knowledge and experience with this issue then all you can do is make an educated guess. We are all enthusiasts and we ask these questions on the forums to get what we think is good information from fellow enthusiasts. Of course all of us want that "guarantee", but that's not gonna happen. It's a risk/reward proposition that we each have to weigh. I personally think the risk is very low, first off that the engine is gonna "blow up" or "throw a rod" and second that my local dealer is gonna dig hard to find out if I had a CAI (I would change it back to stock before taking it in). The reward to me is pretty nice. A relatively low cost part that enhances the car in a cool way. Not significant, but to me the sound, the crisper throttle response, the look. But that's me. Others won't care and that's fine.

Cold Air Inductions has a pretty definitive statement front and center on their website that says a CAI will not void a warranty. It's in their FAQs section.
Anyone can look it up. We can go all day back and forth talking about GM lawyers vs Cold Air Inductions vs what we think. Bottom line is none of us truly KNOW 100% what will happen. Every case will be different, dealers will be different. Some are mod friendly is my understanding, some aren't.

So my final point would be if there is someone who actually is a lawyer that has experience with warranty claims or someone here works at GM that can give a more definitive answer about what would happen then please pipe up. Otherwise I would recommend people stay away from declarative statements about what would happen.

Having said all that, I think your mindset is probably a smart one to go with. Assume the worst case scenario. If my engine blows up and GM denies my claim because I had a CAI in the car (that they were able to determine only through codes) then I'll buy a new motor. My wife will be pissed at me for a bit and I'll never put a CAI in again, but I'm willing to go that far.

Again, sincerely, you make some very well thought out statements in your post. I just had an issue that it was presented as factual/100% what would happen.

My statement as “Factual/100%” is based on the precedent GM has set that has been reported on the Camaro 5/6 forums. Here are a few examples:

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...nty+void+catch

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451361

The other words I used was “Major Powertrain Failure”. I doubt replacing a bad spark plug or spark plug wire will trigger a voided warranty if a catch can or cold air intake is installed. However, any failure that requires an engine tear down or replacement is going to be highly scrutinized by GM because of the cost to repair.

With the oil pump failures that have been report on this forum and now a batch of engines with the potential for valve failure, you really have to ask yourself is the extra 10 horses a 3rd party cold air intake might give you or the few ounces of blowby a catch can might catch really worth the potential loss of your powertrain warranty. That’s the million dollar question.

[Vigilante375]

The 2nd post was overly detailed but GM blamed the catch can saying it caused the engine to starve for oil, with no evidence to back it up.

A car with a known oil pump issue and they blame the catch can. As that OP said, he could take it to court and it would take years before any resolution and didn't want to. That's exactly what GM and others want.

Did you guys know that Nissan will void your warranty if you use the launch control on your GTR? This goes for every year of the R35. Why the hell even put launch control on the car if they'll just void it? But there are many of cases where owners took a Nissan to court and the owners won. Obviously different than what we're taking about but something I'd share.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

The 2nd post was overly detailed but GM blamed the catch can saying it caused the engine to starve for oil, with no evidence to back it up.

A car with a known oil pump issue and they blame the catch can. As that OP said, he could take it to court and it would take years before any resolution and didn't want to. That's exactly what GM and others want.

Did you guys know that Nissan will void your warranty if you use the launch control on your GTR? This goes for every year of the R35. Why the hell even put launch control on the car if they'll just void it? But there are many of cases where owners took a Nissan to court and the owners won. Obviously different than what we're taking about but something I'd share.

What really bothered me about the second post is the catch can company that time after time preaches that their product DOES NOT void your warranty never offered the OP a bit of help fighting GM’s ruling. Their silence was deafening. To me that says a lot about the company. They’ll make all these claims in their marketing but when it comes time to back it up and fight for the customer, they disappear into the darkness. I know I’ll never buy another catch can from them because you’re essentially on your own no matter what they claim.

[semif18]

Originally Posted by hawk02

My statement as “Factual/100%” is based on the precedent GM has set that has been reported on the Camaro 5/6 forums. Here are a few examples:

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...nty+void+catch

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451361

The other words I used was “Major Powertrain Failure”. I doubt replacing a bad spark plug or spark plug wire will trigger a voided warranty if a catch can or cold air intake is installed. However, any failure that requires an engine tear down or replacement is going to be highly scrutinized by GM because of the cost to repair.

With the oil pump failures that have been report on this forum and now a batch of engines with the potential for valve failure, you really have to ask yourself is the extra 10 horses a 3rd party cold air intake might give you or the few ounces of blowby a catch can might catch really worth the potential loss of your powertrain warranty. That’s the million dollar question.

So I don't want to get into a back and forth.......but I guess by me responding that's what we're doing. Since you are using this forum for data I'll go with that. 31 reported pump failures out of 6164 total cars produced in 2018. That's .005%. I don't know if that falls within the range of normal part failures or not (my guess would be it does)? It's obviously highlighted here so it becomes a bigger issue. Of course not every ZL1 owner is on the Camaro6 forum so you'd probably argue there are more out there (reasonable), but we have no idea how many. You cite two examples of warranty denials for catch cans, not any for CAIs (I think I might have heard of one but honestly can't remember). Don't get me wrong, I think your assumption is reasonable that GM will dig if they are replacing an entire motor, I'd do the same thing. If we are looking at the numbers as they are then there is an EXTREMELY low probability of someone having an engine blow up with only a CAI installed (and also an extremely low probability that you'd actually have a pump failure despite the hysteria on the forums). And as I stated before we each have to do a risk/reward analysis. I think the CAI adds quite a bit in terms of visceral enjoyment driving the car, you obviously don't so to each his own. In my mind this is extremely low risk for a low cost reasonable reward. I guess I kinda went off the original topic we were discussing, which was the probability that a CAI would void a warranty for a blown engine. I still argue that the answer is "No" unless it directly caused it, which seems almost impossible.