Hands Free/Self Driving Cars

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

I don't disagree but you are comparing computer driven cars to good human drivers.... a vanishing breed.

Sad, isn't it. Sadder still that so many people are not looking at driving as a skill worth getting better at.


Heh . . . you should hear the way my 20 y/o granddaughter talks about people in her age group concerning the utter lack of knowledge/awareness about cars beyond the need to keep putting gas in it. Understand that young Ms. P. does the oil changes for one of her cars.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SinginHawk

I really appreciate your thoughtful and thorough responses. My prior context was definitely meant to humble my position to one that is learning these materials for a professional trajectory, but does not have decades of experience like many others here. Hopefully with this frame in mind, my position and conclusions can be found logical whether they are misguided or not.

Probably all I can offer is to suggest not forgetting about the human side of it all in the chase for electronic/electromechanical perfection.

While I may have experienced those ABS over-corrections, they have not yet hindered my ability to correctly operate the vehicle, and my assumption is that a correctly [emphasis on "assumption", and "correctly"] programmed driver would handle those miscalculations with a similar level of responsiveness to myself.

I would hope so. I offered that as an example of system limitations, which I don't doubt will apply to the autonomous level.

I think you're looking at this from the frame of, "Do I want an autonomous car for myself?"; rather than, "Do I want autonomous vehicles on the road to replace bad, careless, distracted, or otherwise problematic drivers?" I would answer no and yes to those questions, respectively.

Sounds about right. Will both of those options continue to exist? I could be selfish and figure that as long as they do for as long as I'm above grade that's good enough. But I know that there are good drivers among at least the two generations immediately following mine who might not want to be confined to simply riding.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by CrazyRED

Old Norm is such a pessimist I already know what his reply will be... "Even if I choose to not use it, everybody else that is will endanger me by them using it" Well Mr Norm, if you can't avoid other vehicles on the road, then you're probably more of a danger than driver assisted cars. I drive oversized loads for a living and I can tell you without any doubt that people on the phone or just plain old distracted driving is much more of a hazard than a driver assisted car.

Pessimist is the wrong word.

My son and my son-in-law both drive CDL Class A, so I know you guys see stuff that simply shouldn't happen, and don't always get treated with much courtesy. Truth be told, I'd much rather follow most 18-wheelers at 65 mph than an SUV at the same speed. Not much difference in sight lines, huge difference in what to expect.

Hell, SUV drivers will speed up to squeeze me out of a lane change when I put on a directional signal.

I'm less worried about the likelihood of hacking than I am about the potential consequences if somebody ever managed to pull it off.

The way I understand it, you guys in the Class 8 vehicles are at least currently expected to remain ready to take over control from the autonomy . . . for the full duration of your drive time. I seriously doubt that four-wheeler drivers will accept or comply with that attitude for any level of autonomy short of no-steering-wheel.

If we're ever in traffic together, I'd cut you the slack you need. It's easier to be consciously aware of what a truck needs when there are drivers in the family.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m actually kinda stoked to see this thread. Since I retired from GM I have been an independent consultant, primarily on the topics of Electric and Hybrid vehicles and Autonomous Cars.

A couple things...

• the Cadillac in the video is real and is available now. I had the opportunity to drive one one day when I was still at GM.
• As for all the arm-waving in some areas of the press about autonomous cars leading to the banning of people’s right / ability to drive....

There are FIVE levels of autonomous driving. The Cadillac CT6 is at Level 2. It is not until Level 4 and Level 5 that the car TRULY is fully autonomous.

I subscribe to the 'Telematics Talk' electronic newsletter, so I've got some awareness that others here may not. What I haven't been able to figure out yet is if there's an agenda or editorial slant to the short articles that get linked to - let alone define what it might be. I'm trying to avoid categorizing it as anti-enthusiast, but sometimes the tone sure sounds like some remote "they" want us all to be connected to everything (IOT) and displaced from the driver seat as we know it today.

I value my independence too much.


Norm

[MrChrisLS3]

Let's not forget the perspective here, however. We on this forum are car people. We are the type of people that when bored, or for relaxation, actually like to go for a drive. We drive for fun, and driving is fun. Heck, the drive to and from work is my favorite part of the work day.

But there are a lot of folks out there that hate driving. It scares them, it's a hassle, and many are just not very good at it. Not to mention the kids, or younger drivers if you will, that are more involved in social interaction than actually driving the car. All of these assistance features are great for them, and for us when they have them. The sad part is that we, the drivers, are in the minority.

As far hacking goes, that's probably the least of the problems. The real threat is the professional car thief that figure out to hack the system and have your car drive itself to them. There could be the freak terror threat of someone taking over the car and running you through a crowd. Maybe this is what's behind Mustangs and Cars and Coffee? However, I imagine that this point there will be a changing encryption where every time the car is started the code between the fob and ignition system changes. Something like that.

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Pessimist is the wrong word.

My son and my son-in-law both drive CDL Class A, so I know you guys see stuff that simply shouldn't happen, and don't always get treated with much courtesy. Truth be told, I'd much rather follow most 18-wheelers at 65 mph than an SUV at the same speed. Not much difference in sight lines, huge difference in what to expect.

Hell, SUV drivers will speed up to squeeze me out of a lane change when I put on a directional signal.

I'm less worried about the likelihood of hacking than I am about the potential consequences if somebody ever managed to pull it off.

The way I understand it, you guys in the Class 8 vehicles are at least currently expected to remain ready to take over control from the autonomy . . . for the full duration of your drive time. I seriously doubt that four-wheeler drivers will accept or comply with that attitude for any level of autonomy short of no-steering-wheel.

If we're ever in traffic together, I'd cut you the slack you need. It's easier to be consciously aware of what a truck needs when there are drivers in the family.


Norm

Well Norm, you didn't play along lol. I see people that are anti technology for the reasons you state as pessimism(perhaps wrongly). The numbers just don't match you reasoning. I wish the numbers were more readily available. However, just of the top of my head I believe I have heard of only two fatal accidents involving driver assisted vehicles and both of those were a result of the driver not using it properly.

I for one welcome the technology because after I drive 500-700 miles a day I'm ready to get in a car and let it drive me home. That is still a ways off, but I'm ready for it.

I'm happy to read that you understand the plight of the commercial driver. Many people see us as the enemy and it puts me on the offensive right off the bat. For me personally I would even welcome the driver assist on commercial trucks because there are times when we get tired without even realizing it. If I drive through a city like Miami I have to give every ounce of my attention to horrible drivers and it takes an amazing amount of energy. Once I get back on the flowing highway I am truly exhausted and can easily get lulled into a drowsy condition without even realizing it.

I may have misread your posts, but it seemed to me that you were so far against the technology that I would call it extreme. As I'm sure you know, at your point in life, being extreme toward a subject means you can no longer be objective and see the merits as well as the downfalls. While there is certainly flaws in the current driver assisted vehicles, it has proven well beyond a doubt that it can be beneficial and helps to eliminate many human errors.

I would bet that most of us consider ourselves good drivers. The problem is, we're not all good drivers 100% of the time. We are emotional creatures that make rash decisions. We are also prone to getting sick which can diminish our reaction times and our focus on the road. Driver assists can help eliminate these human errors. I think you have to look at this as a tool rather than a substitution. At this point ithe technology shouldn't be either or, it should be an alternative.

As far as the conspiracy of the hackers, I wasn't directing that at you, I'm not sure who said that, I just found it funny.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There are FIVE levels of autonomous driving. The Cadillac CT6 is at Level 2. It is not until Level 4 and Level 5 that the car TRULY is fully autonomous. There are already a lot of Level 1 Autonomous vehicles on the road. Anything with Adaptive Cruise Control is technically a Level 1 Autonomous Vehicle. That includes 2018 Mustang. It also includes Cadillac ATS and CTS, both on the same architecture as Camaro. Theoretically, it could be one of the upgrades for 2019. Just sayin’. With Level 1 and Level 2, you have to continuously maintain ability to control the car. The CT6 has a color bar on the top of the steering wheel that signals to the driver when it is time to take back control.

Levels 3 and 4 have more car functional capability,

Level 5 is what far too many people assume Autonomous Driving is.

This first round of robo-taxis will have humans behind the wheel “just in case”, but GM has already shown an interior design of the car with no steering wheel....Level 5.

Where Level 5 cars make sense is in taxi situations, like Uber and Lyft and also in situations dealing with people who cannot drive (blind or in other ways incapacitated, elderly and/or infirm, too young to drive) and delivery services, especially those that drive the same routes repetitively. Where Level 4 cars make sense is with working families that have conflicting time requirements. For example, someone with a Level 4 autonomous car could drive themselves to work, then send the car back home to pick up the kids, take them to school, then return to the office and park itself.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.eca4bd4f2a58

Thanks for that brief but detailed description.

The possibility that a "driver" might miss the color bar's indication (Level 2?) does frighten me a bit. But that's from a driving mindset that ignores even the presence of non-adaptive cruise control (except for testing it every couple of years to see if it still works at all) and hasn't yet turned over the matter of shifting to the electronics & hydraulics.

Even Level 4 sounds do-able for an enthusiast, as long as there aren't any situations where the autonomy grabs control away from the human while driving in non-autonomous mode. While I should expect any such intervention to be benign, I can't guarantee (for myself, anyway) that the surprise factor would be benign as well. "WTF just happened" moments are rarely good for driver composure.

Geo-fencing scares me. As an example, I do a little target shooting, so what if the ranges were all geo-fenced off? I'm sure there could be other places or routes placed off-limits as well.


Norm

[racesloth]

The problem I have with it all is that it will be forced on us by law. The fools currently making laws in this country are scarry to say the least. The law is the first part, then you have more (unelected) fools making the regulations to back up the laws. I can just imagine the regulations regarding the upkeep on these vehicles, it wouldn't surprise me if became like maintaining an aircraft, regluations on keeping detailed logs of maintenance, who can do the work, who can supply the parts etc... I am sure the OEMs are licking their chops... Every law and regulation will be preceeded by a politician telling us how it is for the greater good... no thanks.

[Pro Stock John]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m actually kinda stoked to see this thread. Since I retired from GM I have been an independent consultant, primarily on the topics of Electric and Hybrid vehicles and Autonomous Cars.

A couple things...

• the Cadillac in the video is real and is available now. I had the opportunity to drive one one day when I was still at GM.
• As for all the arm-waving in some areas of the press about autonomous cars leading to the banning of people’s right / ability to drive....

There are FIVE levels of autonomous driving. The Cadillac CT6 is at Level 2. It is not until Level 4 and Level 5 that the car TRULY is fully autonomous. There are already a lot of Level 1 Autonomous vehicles on the road. Anything with Adaptive Cruise Control is technically a Level 1 Autonomous Vehicle. That includes 2018 Mustang. It also includes Cadillac ATS and CTS, both on the same architecture as Camaro. Theoretically, it could be one of the upgrades for 2019. Just sayin’. With Level 1 and Level 2, you have to continuously maintain ability to control the car. The CT6 has a color bar on the top of the steering wheel that signals to the driver when it is time to take back control.

Levels 3 and 4 have more car functional capability, but still allow for the driver to have the ability to drive the car. In Level 4, the idea is that the driver can choose to operate it fully autonomously or to drive on their own, with the understanding that if the driver chooses to operate it autonomously, the car can manage the entire trip on its own. With Level 3, there could still be situations where the car may want to give back control.

Level 5 is what far too many people assume Autonomous Driving is. That is where the car cannot be driven by a human and would for that reason not even have a steering wheel. For the most part, these vehicles will be fleet vehicles. For example, Uber and Lyft would be first in line to buy fleets of Level 5 vehicles. That would eliminate the need to pay human drivers for rides. Both are expected to start offering autonomous rides to customers within the next year or two. GM is actually gonna get there first. GM has already been allowing employees to use autonomous “taxis” to get around the Warren Tech Center for the past year or so. These have been Level 4 cars, with an engineer behind the wheel, hands-off, “just in case”. To my knowledge, the engineers have not had to intervene in any instances to date. Next step, and it may be happening already, is to allow employees to use these vehicles on the public roads in Warren, Michigan. I’ve been away since March, so this may have already started and I just haven’t heard yet. I do know that all the legal hurdles have been cleared. Similar in-population testing has been going on for more than a year in San Francisco and not quite a year in Arizona. Part of what makes these trials possible is the ability to restrict the vehicles’ travel area through geo-fencing. The cars know the areas of Warren where they are allowed to operate and where they are not. This first round of robo-taxis will have humans behind the wheel “just in case”, but GM has already shown an interior design of the car with no steering wheel....Level 5.

Where Level 5 cars make sense is in taxi situations, like Uber and Lyft and also in situations dealing with people who cannot drive (blind or in other ways incapacitated, elderly and/or infirm, too young to drive) and delivery services, especially those that drive the same routes repetitively. Where Level 4 cars make sense is with working families that have conflicting time requirements. For example, someone with a Level 4 autonomous car could drive themselves to work, then send the car back home to pick up the kids, take them to school, then return to the office and park itself.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.eca4bd4f2a58

Thanks for typing out the above recap, very interesting. I think the commercial utility of level 4 and 5 makes a lot of sense. I think consumer owners would have interest as well, lots of folks don't really enjoy driving.

(I of course do).

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Geo-fencing scares me. As an example, I do a little target shooting, so what if the ranges were all geo-fenced off? I'm sure there could be other places or routes placed off-limits as well.


Norm

I'm also a "drone" enthusiast, actually quadcopter or however corresponding motors it has. Anyway, geofencing. What a nuisance. That is certainly government overreach. However, to get back on topic, that's why these vehicles will have drivers controls available. There will be all kinds of situations where the car can't drive itself. Driving through the woods, unmarked dirt roads, personal driveways, garages...

I've read that your concerned with your personal liberties, I can certainly understand that and agree with many aspects of that argument. I just think for this subject it might be misdirected. I see this as adding to my personal liberties. Now I will have the chance to let a proven system take the reigns from me responsibly while I may not be at 100% capable, at a time where my driving skills may be affected because of illness or fatigue.

I honestly see your point, and respect the premise behind it. I just think you and others aren't fully aware of the capabilities and the so far, proven results

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by racesloth

The problem I have with it all is that it will be forced on us by law. The fools currently making laws in this country are scarry to say the least. The law is the first part, then you have more (unelected) fools making the regulations to back up the laws. I can just imagine the regulations regarding the upkeep on these vehicles, it wouldn't surprise me if became like maintaining an aircraft, regluations on keeping detailed logs of maintenance, who can do the work, who can supply the parts etc... I am sure the OEMs are licking their chops... Every law and regulation will be preceeded by a politician telling us how it is for the greater good... no thanks.

Forced how? They are going to recall all manual driving vehicles? I completely agree with the government's ineptness, but I don't think this is the discussion for it.

This sounds just like all the conversations about the electric car and how the government was going to take away all our fire breathing vehicles.

If the government ever takes away our option to drive our cars it won't be in our lifetimes

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by CrazyRED

I may have misread your posts, but it seemed to me that you were so far against the technology that I would call it extreme. As I'm sure you know, at your point in life, being extreme toward a subject means you can no longer be objective and see the merits as well as the downfalls. While there is certainly flaws in the current driver assisted vehicles, it has proven well beyond a doubt that it can be beneficial and helps to eliminate many human errors.

What I'd be extremely against would be being forced into a Level 5 vehicle, at least for as long as I'm physically and mentally capable of driving in a reasonably safe manner. Level 5 is such an absolute that it is probably impossible to be objective about it - you're either going to hate it with a passion or embrace it like it was the best thing that ever happened to you with your clothes on.

Right now, I know I'm not nearly ready even for Level 3 for one very specific reason that is not limited to autonomous cars. I'm trying to avoid opening up that can of worms, but my sig probably contains enough hints.

I think you have to look at this as a tool rather than a substitution. At this point ithe technology shouldn't be either or, it should be an alternative.

Fair enough, as long as the choice of whether to use [up to] Level 4 remains in the driver's hands.


Norm

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John

Thanks for typing out the above recap, very interesting. I think the commercial utility of level 4 and 5 makes a lot of sense. I think consumer owners would have interest as well, lots of folks don't really enjoy driving.

(I of course do).

I love driving and driving hard, but I also like the idea of jumping in a car after driving thousands of miles and having it take me home. Or, even better I love site seeing. I've driven to all 49 states that are possible to drive to. I miss a lot of the countryside because I have to pay 100% attention to the road.

[CrazyRED]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Fair enough, as long as the choice of whether to use [up to] Level 4 remains in the driver's hands.


Norm

Just as I replied to another comment, there's no way the government is going to round up all 263.6 million cars in the United States and make us all use automated vehicles.

At least not in our lifetime