[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Wait, all the Mustang guys said the PP1 was so soft because of comfort (because it clearly wasn't set up for performance based off of what I saw in the H2H). So, you are now saying it is not comfortable too? So it under performs AND is too harsh? Wow, what a fail the PP1 is!

But if that is the case, yes, I agree with you. Make the base GT soft enough for the folks that don't want a harsh ride. Then make the PP1 for those who want a more tied down ride (a street performance pack) and don't mind a bit harsher ride to get it. Then make the PP2 a balls-to-the-wall track package. Planted suspension, grippy tires, and coolers for heavy-duty usage.

PP1 is to the mustang what the SS is to the camaro. The camaro lineup does not have a grand touring option, it's more performance oriented right out of the box. The simply fact that the SS only comes with summer tires while the GT (non PP) only comes with all season tires really highlights this point.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

That's kind of the bind that Ford is in with these performance packs. If they add too much, it will get too close to the GT350 in both price and performance. You might as well get the GT350 at that point.

But, I got a 2016 1SS (non-1LE) that has all the necessary track coolers (I added MRC, Dual Mode Exhaust, 8-speed auto, and a few other goodies like a blade spoiler), for just a hair over $40k. And that was pretty close to MSRP. You could get this same car now for under $40k for sure (especially if you don't want an auto transmission). That's just about $20k cheaper than the GT350.

It's a perfect daily driver, that you can take to the track on weekends with no modifications (I only added DOT4 brake fluid so far). But, to get a trackable (road course of course) Mustang, you are getting awfully close to the GT350 in price.

This is more of an issue of….if they add to much the price will skyrocket and they will lose that 30% take rate. They undoubtedly are making more money off of the performance pack than the base GT, so it stands to reason that the more people they can get to purchase the PP1, the more profits they will be able to make.

As for trackable mustangs…the PP1 is perfectly capable, just don’t lap it for hours on end. It’s going to perform similarly to your 1SS. Most people will never need the coolers that the 1SS comes with. I fully expect GM to release a base V8 this year with all season tires and without the coolers to compete in price with the base GT.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The PP2 is a newly fangled thing tho. It has been GT to SS and then PP1 to SS 1LE all this time. Now all of a sudden the PP2 gets advertised and the PP1 is no longer a valid comparison to the 1LE because it got smoked? I don't see it that way. That's like saying the GT isn't the match for the SS because the GT got smoked. What happened was the PP1 got destroyed by the SS 1LE so Ford had to make a PP2 that would perform better. That does not make the PP1 any less of a natural competitor to the SS 1LE. It just means it got smoked and now you need something better.

Of course you don’t see it that way, you have camaro blinders on. The 6th gen GT never really lined up with the 6th gen SS. We all compared it because they both were the base levels available. The GT is more of a grand touring car and the SS has more of a track car flavor. We compared the PP1 to the 1LE because that’s all we had. Everyone knew the PP1 wasn’t really a track car, but a street car with a track car flavor (much like the SS). Now that Ford is actually making a PP2 that has suspension and tires that line up with the 1LE, we have cars that once again line up, not from an actual lap time standpoint but purely an option standpoint. Both have track oriented summer tires wider than their counterparts, and both have a much more track oriented suspension.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And that is the reason it underperforms...or performs well enough for women. They love Mustangs. And the Mustang is on a girly level of performance.

You have some severe masculinity issues my friend.

Originally Posted by shaffe

in non premium trim the GT PP2 is MSRP 44,495. (35,095 + 900 destination, 2000 for 301A pack and 6500 for PP2)

While it was the right comparison 1LE vs GT PP I don't think anyone ever considered the PP1 to be a legit competitor to the 1LE. All you had to do was look at the equipment and it was evident the 1LE components were much more performance focused than the GT PP. The PP1 now does up the game a bit, but it's components still are not as focused as the 1LE. Which is why once the PP2 was announced, IMO MT should have just waited.

I wasn’t that it was right…it was that it was the only comparison. No one truly thought the PP1 was a legit track car, but rather a car more suitable for occasional track duty.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That is a bullshit statement. If Ford didn't care about matching the 1LE, then there is nothing that any engineer would have or could have done to change the exec's minds. And I don't believe for one second that a bunch of engineers worked endless hours without pay to build the PP2. I thought that was a bullshit made-for-TV story the first time I heard it and I still call bullshit. Now if you have some sort of link to a story about how Ford management didn't care to match their biggest competitor when all they have done for the past few years was just that then I would love to see it. They designed the GT350(R) to take on the 5th Gen Z cars and even went to great lengths to developed a FPC engine and threw CF wheels on it. They went to great lengths to beat the ZR1's hp numbers with the 13-14 GT500. They built the Boss 302, CJ Mustang, and everything else. Yet you're sitting here telling me that they didn't care about the SS 1LE but they just happened to allow production of a design that their engineers drummed up staying overnight on their free time? .

I’m curious, if this were the case…then why did Ford not give the PP1 the options the PP2 now has?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It was the legit competitor. It just lost horribly. Nobody expected it to BEAT the SS 1LE. But that does not make it any less of a legit competitor. Equipment or not. The PP1 is the upgrade to the GT just like the SS 1LE is the upgrade to the SS. So they match. GM just decided to make the 1LE version more track worthy while Ford made the PP1 some kind of lame upgrade. Now Ford has a second upgrade, the PP2. So how is the matchup supposed to go now? GT to V6 Camaro and then PP1 to SS and then PP2 to SS 1LE? And what is the match to the Bullitt? All these "apples to apples" and talk about how this is not the competitor to that is a bunch of bullshit. The Mustangs have been underperforming and these are all just lame excuses.

I’m sorry, this is a lame comment. Just because each car has options above the base level does not mean they “match”. The PP1 on the previous mustang was a cheap $2500 option (which 30% of customers chose).

Why are you so stuck on trying insist that every level of mustang and camaro must have a match. GM does not currently make a camaro that matches up to the non PP GT. Deal with it and move on. The EB matches up with the V6 camaro….and the 4cyl camaro has no match in mustang trim.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That is a bullshit statement. If Ford didn't care about matching the 1LE, then there is nothing that any engineer would have or could have done to change the exec's minds. And I don't believe for one second that a bunch of engineers worked endless hours without pay to build the PP2. I thought that was a bullshit made-for-TV story the first time I heard it and I still call bullshit. Now if you have some sort of link to a story about how Ford management didn't care to match their biggest competitor when all they have done for the past few years was just that then I would love to see it. They designed the GT350(R) to take on the 5th Gen Z cars and even went to great lengths to developed a FPC engine and threw CF wheels on it. They went to great lengths to beat the ZR1's hp numbers with the 13-14 GT500. They built the Boss 302, CJ Mustang, and everything else. Yet you're sitting here telling me that they didn't care about the SS 1LE but they just happened to allow production of a design that their engineers drummed up staying overnight on their free time?


It was the legit competitor. It just lost horribly. Nobody expected it to BEAT the SS 1LE. But that does not make it any less of a legit competitor. Equipment or not. The PP1 is the upgrade to the GT just like the SS 1LE is the upgrade to the SS. So they match. GM just decided to make the 1LE version more track worthy while Ford made the PP1 some kind of lame upgrade. Now Ford has a second upgrade, the PP2. So how is the matchup supposed to go now? GT to V6 Camaro and then PP1 to SS and then PP2 to SS 1LE? And what is the match to the Bullitt? All these "apples to apples" and talk about how this is not the competitor to that is a bunch of bullshit. The Mustangs have been underperforming and these are all just lame excuses.

I am pretty sure you and me literally said the same thing lol. I said it was the right comparison and GM just went much more track focused. When I said not legit, what I was saying was Ford clearly didn't go as hardcore as GM did.

Now this is how I would line them up.

Ecoboost vs V-6
Ecoboost PP Vs V-6 1LE

GT vs SS (some will say that it should be the GT PP, don't know where I stand on it honestly. You do kind of need to equip the GT that way to be comparably equipped but thats a topic for another day)

GT PP2 VS SS 1LE

And also agree, Ford clearly cares what the Camaro does. GM just seems to be 1 step ahead of them 80-90% of the time

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

PP1 is to the mustang what the SS is to the camaro. The camaro lineup does not have a grand touring option, it's more performance oriented right out of the box. The simply fact that the SS only comes with summer tires while the GT (non PP) only comes with all season tires really highlights this point.

So the GT being lame forces GM to need a watered-down version of the SS? So now all of a sudden the excuse for the GT being a poor performer is that it's the "Touring" version of the Mustang? WTF is that shit?

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Of course you don’t see it that way, you have camaro blinders on. The 6th gen GT never really lined up with the 6th gen SS. We all compared it because they both were the base levels available. The GT is more of a grand touring car and the SS has more of a track car flavor. We compared the PP1 to the 1LE because that’s all we had. Everyone knew the PP1 wasn’t really a track car, but a street car with a track car flavor (much like the SS). Now that Ford is actually making a PP2 that has suspension and tires that line up with the 1LE, we have cars that once again line up, not from an actual lap time standpoint but purely an option standpoint. Both have track oriented summer tires wider than their counterparts, and both have a much more track oriented suspension.

I have performance blinders on. You have full-of-shit blinders on. If I wanted a tourer, I wouldn't even consider a Mustang or a Camaro for that matter. These are Muscle cars. Not Sport Tourers.

The GT matches up with the SS. The PP was the upgrade to the GT just like the SS 1LE was the upgrade to the SS. Again, just because the Mustang got it's ass kicked doesn't mean you can just go around changing categories or adding in sub-categories. It got beat. Convincingly. If the Mustang is no longer a Muscle Car or wants to be in the touring or "sporty" category then so long.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You have some severe masculinity issues my friend.

Why is that? If you want a car that women desire then good for you. It will underperform because women do not want or desire the same things in a car that men prefer...except for maybe you that is. If you can't understand that then YOU'RE the one with "masculinity issues"...rather, a "lack of masculinity" issue.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am pretty sure you and me literally said the same thing lol. I said it was the right comparison and GM just went much more track focused. When I said not legit, what I was saying was Ford clearly didn't go as hardcore as GM did.

Now this is how I would line them up.

Ecoboost vs V-6
Ecoboost PP Vs V-6 1LE

GT vs SS (some will say that it should be the GT PP, don't know where I stand on it honestly. You do kind of need to equip the GT that way to be comparably equipped but thats a topic for another day)

GT PP2 VS SS 1LE

And also agree, Ford clearly cares what the Camaro does. GM just seems to be 1 step ahead of them 80-90% of the time

I think the GT and the GT PP1 fell behind by such a large margin...or the SS and SS1LE jumped ahead by such a large margin that the Mustang guys think it isn't fair to compare them when they're on the same trim level. So now they think the GT PP should be compared to the SS and this new PP2 should be compared to the SS 1LE. And the thing is that they've been saying it enough times that even us over here started believing it. LOL.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So the GT being lame forces GM to need a watered-down version of the SS? So now all of a sudden the excuse for the GT being a poor performer is that it's the "Touring" version of the Mustang? WTF is that shit?

Funny, GM disagrees with you.

"Chevy product head Mark Reuss said yesterday that the automaker is considering a cheaper, stripped-out Camaro SS to better compete with the Mustang GT."

"I think we've got opportunities at the very low end of the Camaro range and some remix of some of the V8 options on it so we don't force people to buy all the options with a V8, just to get a V8," Reuss said. "The Mustang and some of the cars in the segment will have a lower base price and that's an opportunity for us probably."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...amaro-ss-base/

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I have performance blinders on. You have full-of-shit blinders on. If I wanted a tourer, I wouldn't even consider a Mustang or a Camaro for that matter. These are Muscle cars. Not Sport Tourers.

Remind me again what GT stands for?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT matches up with the SS. The PP was the upgrade to the GT just like the SS 1LE was the upgrade to the SS. Again, just because the Mustang got it's ass kicked doesn't mean you can just go around changing categories or adding in sub-categories. It got beat. Convincingly. If the Mustang is no longer a Muscle Car or wants to be in the touring or "sporty" category then so long.

Again, GM disagrees with you.


"I think we've got opportunities at the very low end of the Camaro range and some remix of some of the V8 options on it so we don't force people to buy all the options with a V8, just to get a V8," Reuss said. "The Mustang and some of the cars in the segment will have a lower base price and that's an opportunity for us probably."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...amaro-ss-base/

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Why is that? If you want a car that women desire then good for you. It will underperform because women do not want or desire the same things in a car that men prefer...except for maybe you that is. If you can't understand that then YOU'RE the one with "masculinity issues"...rather, a "lack of masculinity" issue.

I fear for your potential mate.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think the GT and the GT PP1 fell behind by such a large margin...or the SS and SS1LE jumped ahead by such a large margin that the Mustang guys think it isn't fair to compare them when they're on the same trim level. So now they think the GT PP should be compared to the SS and this new PP2 should be compared to the SS 1LE. And the thing is that they've been saying it enough times that even us over here started believing it. LOL.

I'm curious, what should this new PP2 be compared to if not the 1LE?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I struggle to follow when people say a car equipped with Sport Cup 2's isn't supposed to be a track car.

Really? R-comp tires on a street car was Ford's plan? I think it more likely Ford once again failed to equip a track car with coolers, than they think a Mustang with R-Comp tires is a street car.

There is only one reason the PP2 doesn't have coolers. Warranty liability.

Go ahead and track your car. We don't recommend it. You are on your own.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by hotlap

There is only one reason the PP2 doesn't have coolers. Warranty liability.

Go ahead and track your car. We don't recommend it. You are on your own.

The corvette A8 Z06 has the same issue (and warnings).

For ford, tracking the car doesn't void warranty, racing in a timed event "could".

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is more of an issue of….if they add to much the price will skyrocket and they will lose that 30% take rate. They undoubtedly are making more money off of the performance pack than the base GT, so it stands to reason that the more people they can get to purchase the PP1, the more profits they will be able to make.

As for trackable mustangs…the PP1 is perfectly capable, just don’t lap it for hours on end. It’s going to perform similarly to your 1SS. Most people will never need the coolers that the 1SS comes with. I fully expect GM to release a base V8 this year with all season tires and without the coolers to compete in price with the base GT.

Did you even watch the video? The PP1 in no way is performing like a 1SS (non-1LE). Even if you gave the PP1 better tires, and it turned the same lap time (or even better), the PP1 has way too much body roll, and other unwanted motions. So much so, it is effecting the steering inputs. You have to adjust steering after the rear end flops over. In this day and age, that is ridiculous.

IF you did want to track a PP1, you would definitely want to stiffen up the suspension (especially the rear sway bar) to help resolve these issues. But, if you do that, you should leave off the Magneride when you order (it should be calibrated for the suspension that you have, so a suspension upgrade needs a re-calibration). In fact, you might just want to go with the base GT and go from there. And, you will definitely need at least a rear diff cooler from what I understand.

That is why I think the two PP's should be a bit different than what they are. Just make the base GT a comfortable ride, the PP1 something that tames the unwanted body motions for fun back road spirited driving, and make the PP2 for the track (including coolers). Then you have something for everyone.

As it stands now, the PP1's suspension is crap. The PP2 will probably tame that, but it comes with tires that are so aggressive, they don't do well on the street, yet there are no coolers....

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Was this post directed at me? You may have misread my post (or the intent of my post), as I agree with you. The PP2 seems to be a "track pack" if you will, given the tires and additional stiffness to the suspension. But it still doesn't have the coolers.

And since Ford has two PP's (I didn't mean it THAT way), one can be a street performance pack, and the other more of a track pack (with the base GT being for comfort). But the PP1's suspension is too floaty for a street performance pack (if you want comfort, get the base GT). So firm up the PP1's suspension, and add coolers to PP2, and that would make more sense to me.

Nope, was just a general thought/post. Not directed at you, or anyone really.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yes. Ford fans argue sales superiority and that performance doesn't matter. "Performance" doesn't matter to women and rental car companies so Mustang is heavy there. The $5,700+ higher average transaction price on Camaro retail sales suggests people are buying the more expensive performance variants from Chevy.

Funny acknowledgement

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

The corvette A8 Z06 has the same issue (and warnings).

For ford, tracking the car doesn't void warranty, racing in a timed event "could".

You’re saying that A8 Z06s come with a warning that it’s owners need to install additional coolers if they want to track?

My understanding is that any overheating the A8 Z06 has had wasn’t by omission. I.e. You’re on your own. It was actually a product performance issue.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Did you even watch the video? The PP1 in no way is performing like a 1SS (non-1LE). Even if you gave the PP1 better tires, and it turned the same lap time (or even better), the PP1 has way too much body roll, and other unwanted motions. So much so, it is effecting the steering inputs. You have to adjust steering after the rear end flops over. In this day and age, that is ridiculous.

IF you did want to track a PP1, you would definitely want to stiffen up the suspension (especially the rear sway bar) to help resolve these issues. But, if you do that, you should leave off the Magneride when you order (it should be calibrated for the suspension that you have, so a suspension upgrade needs a re-calibration). In fact, you might just want to go with the base GT and go from there. And, you will definitely need at least a rear diff cooler from what I understand.

That is why I think the two PP's should be a bit different than what they are. Just make the base GT a comfortable ride, the PP1 something that tames the unwanted body motions for fun back road spirited driving, and make the PP2 for the track (including coolers). Then you have something for everyone.

As it stands now, the PP1's suspension is crap. The PP2 will probably tame that, but it comes with tires that are so aggressive, they don't do well on the street, yet there are no coolers....

Funny, I have yet to see them test the PP1 against the 1SS…or the 1SS against the 1LE. As it stands, it appears the PP1 turns a somewhat close laptime to what the 1SS has done in the past. Anytime you put a car that underperforms against a track oriented car…you are going to get “unwanted” motions. I’m curious to see if the motortrend folks would have used the same verbiage if they pitted the 1SS against the PP1.

If you wanted to track the PP1, there is no need to do anything unless you want to make it better. The only people that will need coolers on these are those that push the cars hard for a long duration. Most people won’t.