[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by lbls1

I would hate to think that this is signaling the end of v8 greatness being integrated into a modern sedan. We need to appreciate the automobiles that we enjoy presently, because if this hint is correct then the days of buying a high caliber v8 sport coupe and sedan may be numbered. Its not necessarily the case that smaller engines and platforms are bad; Far from it. Its just in comparison to the raw power and excellence of the past V powered cars that makes anything other than the v8 platform seem weak.

The V6 in the ATS-V was at least as powerful as any V8 powered V car from before the 2nd gen (LSA powered) CTS-V. That includes the early supercharged V8s.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

This putting the V name on different models is no different than back in the 60's when you could get an SS Impala, Chevelle, Nova, Camaro, and probably more that I can't think of right now. And that SS could be anything from a 283 to a 454.

Was anyone at the time confused by that? I doubt it.

Did anyone think that the SS badge automatically meant it had to be a 409, 427, 454 or whatever the most powerful engine was at the time? Probably not.

It was more like, "I want an Impala... but something sportier than the regular model... but nothing too out there... so I'm getting the SS 327". I doubt anyone said, "My SS Impala is not as fast as my old SS 427 Nova so I'm moving on to Ford".

If anyone today wants the apex Cadillac they know to get the CTS-V. If someone just wants a quicker, sportier CT4 or CT5 they will probably be quite content with the V version of that car.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

This putting the V name on different models is no different than back in the 60's when you could get an SS Impala, Chevelle, Nova, Camaro, and probably more that I can't think of right now. And that SS could be anything from a 283 to a 454.

Was anyone at the time confused by that? I doubt it.

Did anyone think that the SS badge automatically meant it had to be a 409, 427, 454 or whatever the most powerful engine was at the time? Probably not.

It was more like, "I want an Impala... but something sportier than the regular model... but nothing too out there... so I'm getting the SS 327". I doubt anyone said, "My SS Impala is not as fast as my old SS 427 Nova so I'm moving on to Ford".

If anyone today wants the apex Cadillac they know to get the CTS-V. If someone just wants a quicker, sportier CT4 or CT5 they will probably be quite content with the V version of that car.

What different models? They only rolled out one new V car on each with no explanation, at least initially, on why they were so different than the previous V cars.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Don't believe so, at least none that I've seen.



Some people are seeing this as a response to the negative publicity generated from Thursday, but honestly I think Cadillac's playing us like a fiddle. There's no way this wasn't planned well in advance. Get everyone riled up over the entry level V cars then surprise them with the high performance V cars.

I'm leaning towards this as well. It is a tried and true way to create a buzz.

"Reveal something that is (at least) semi-absurd on the internet; therefore, getting all the neckbeards to throw a temper tantrum prior to knowing the entire list of facts.".

As I stated in my prior comments, I'm reserving all judgement until I see exactly what is truly going on here. Cadillac still has a few cards that they're holding.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

This putting the V name on different models is no different than back in the 60's when you could get an SS Impala, Chevelle, Nova, Camaro, and probably more that I can't think of right now. And that SS could be anything from a 283 to a 454.

Was anyone at the time confused by that? I doubt it.

Did anyone think that the SS badge automatically meant it had to be a 409, 427, 454 or whatever the most powerful engine was at the time? Probably not.

It was more like, "I want an Impala... but something sportier than the regular model... but nothing too out there... so I'm getting the SS 327". I doubt anyone said, "My SS Impala is not as fast as my old SS 427 Nova so I'm moving on to Ford".

If anyone today wants the apex Cadillac they know to get the CTS-V. If someone just wants a quicker, sportier CT4 or CT5 they will probably be quite content with the V version of that car.

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The V6 in the ATS-V was at least as powerful as any V8 powered V car from before the 2nd gen (LSA powered) CTS-V. That includes the early supercharged V8s.

True, and to be honest it was a great platform for the ATS. If you are gearing the Vs to compete against M3-M4 then I can buy it. My criticism is that somehow the newer Vs seem to have less bite than previously. Recall that the ATS was a turbocharged 6 cyl. putting out near 450 HP, hardly an economical or even a mid-pack power package.

Even with the ATS, their V package was within the aura of the mega powerful, groundbreaking and respect-earning Vs from the 2nd and 3rd generation CTS. I might be biased, but IMO this sedan is-was one of Cadillac's cornerstone creations. It instantly regained respect for Cadillac and caught a handful of the elite sedans by surprise. I would hate that respect and legacy to be lost by a downsizing policy towards the powertrain.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The V6 in the ATS-V was at least as powerful as any V8 powered V car from before the 2nd gen (LSA powered) CTS-V. That includes the early supercharged V8s.

I recall the LS6 and LS2 CTSVs (naturally aspirated) I don't recall a supercharged version (unless you're talking about the Seville-replacement sedan with the supercharged Northstar, who's name escapes me....STSV???); Those sedans were nothing to sneeze at either. The ATS was more powerful and probably quicker than the early CTSVs, but also realize the distinct difference in sound and feel of a v8 vs a v6 or 4 cyl. engine. Although some may not care, but there is quite a difference in the sound and perception (but not necessarily a performance advantage) between the 8 cyl. and smaller engines.

[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

From what I've been led to believe is that the CT6 is the natural CTS replacement since they where closer in size. The CT5 is to be slotted as a slightly larger ATS and the CT4 is to be slotted as a slightly smaller ATS in the lineup for better coverage.

[FenwickHockey65]

CT4 actually appears to be roughly the same size as ATS.


I think the market positioning won't necessarily be size based, more price based. CT6 already comes in tens of thousands of dollars less than 7-series and S-class.

[mjk3888]

https://www.motor1.com/news/352808/b...adillac-brand/

This makes more sense to me. I also recall the CT6-V was briefly branded the V-sport before they labeled it the V. To me that smells of a new name for top level performance cars perhaps "black wing" and V replacing the V sport series.

Just think if these cars were labeled as V sport we all would've had zero questions or concerns.

I SO DEARLY WANT A CT4 BLACKWING with the 4.2L TT V8! Basically the American AMG C63! It will be the ATS-V (V8) most of us wanted!

[mjk3888]

BINGO!!!

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ack-confirmed/

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

This putting the V name on different models is no different than back in the 60's when you could get an SS Impala, Chevelle, Nova, Camaro, and probably more that I can't think of right now. And that SS could be anything from a 283 to a 454.

Was anyone at the time confused by that? I doubt it.

Did anyone think that the SS badge automatically meant it had to be a 409, 427, 454 or whatever the most powerful engine was at the time? Probably not.

It was more like, "I want an Impala... but something sportier than the regular model... but nothing too out there... so I'm getting the SS 327". I doubt anyone said, "My SS Impala is not as fast as my old SS 427 Nova so I'm moving on to Ford".

If anyone today wants the apex Cadillac they know to get the CTS-V. If someone just wants a quicker, sportier CT4 or CT5 they will probably be quite content with the V version of that car.

True but that was also back in the day when if you just ticked the right boxes you could get a car just about any way you wanted. My pops was able to order a 390 Big Block Mustang without the GT package.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

This ^

Originally Posted by lbls1

I recall the LS6 and LS2 CTSVs (naturally aspirated) I don't recall a supercharged version (unless you're talking about the Seville-replacement sedan with the supercharged Northstar, who's name escapes me....STSV???); Those sedans were nothing to sneeze at either. The ATS was more powerful and probably quicker than the early CTSVs, but also realize the distinct difference in sound and feel of a v8 vs a v6 or 4 cyl. engine. Although some may not care, but there is quite a difference in the sound and perception (but not necessarily a performance advantage) between the 8 cyl. and smaller engines.

The CTS-V has been supercharged since 2008. It was powered by the LSA from 08 to 14, and has had the LT4 since.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

The Camaro pecking order has bounced around over the years.

1st Gen-The 396SS was the most powerful Camaro you could purchase from the factory, before the introduction of the '69 COPO Camaro
2nd Gen-The SS was at the top
3rd Gen-The SS didn't even exist
4th Gen-The SS was back and was, again the most powerful
5th Gen-The SS was third, behind the Z/28 and the ZL1
6th Gen-The SS is behind the ZL1 and ZL1-1LE

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The CTS-V has been supercharged since 2008. It was powered by the LSA from 08 to 14, and has had the LT4 since.

Right you are, but I think D's quote may have been cut off in the process. He was comparing the new V's to some of Cadillac's pre- 2nd Generation V's that had less hp, and he included (I believe) the supercharged midsized sedan that took the place of the former Seville STS.

I was more than aware that the CTSV was supercharged since '09. That sedan was the sole savior of Cadillac in the 21st Century. That car was also responsible for the birth of yours truly (the ZL1)!!!!