[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right but would someone pick the GT350R instead the GT500 if both are on the lot and both are available with the GT350R being more expensive?

You didn't answer the question tho.

Yes some people prefer a NA setup over forced induction. Yes some people like the GT350R better than the GT500. But what I am asking, is if someone would pay more for the GT350R instead of the GT500 if both are available. Meaning both cars are on the lot at the same time. The GT350R MSRP is higher than the GT500. Would an informed buyer choose the GT350R over the GT500?

https://youtu.be/fdCuWzlM5E8

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right but would someone pick the GT350R instead the GT500 if both are on the lot and both are available with the GT350R being more expensive?

You didn't answer the question tho.

Yes some people prefer a NA setup over forced induction. Yes some people like the GT350R better than the GT500. But what I am asking, is if someone would pay more for the GT350R instead of the GT500 if both are available. Meaning both cars are on the lot at the same time. The GT350R MSRP is higher than the GT500. Would an informed buyer choose the GT350R over the GT500?

Yes I think there are those who would, they want a NA manual setup vs forced induction auto. Some feel the 350 looks better than the 500. I myself wouldn't consider an R as I need 4 seats. But I may consider a 500 when the prices fall.

What you fail to understand is the 350R is still in high demand even throughout the 500 rollout and although not as high as previous years there are still markups. You are not seeing 6k - 10k discounts like other models. If dealers were panicking they would be heavily discounting.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes I think there are those who would, they want a NA manual setup vs forced induction auto. Some feel the 350 looks better than the 500. I myself wouldn't consider an R as I need 4 seats. But I may consider a 500 when the prices fall.

I agree. The 600+ HP cars are fun but heavier and gather speed so fast you can only make use of it all on a track. And you better know what you are doing. Is too much too much?

Less so with the GT350 but it too is too much for the street. I am sure it feels lighter and more tossable than the GT500 and is very unique with that motor and the sound. And is more collectable I would think. I would love to own one but not as my daily. Beautiful car.

I got bored with an auto in my ZL1, as great as it is. I grew up loving the manuals. So I can relate to that choice. Plus if you have plenty of cash no car will be your last until it is. Sample both.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes I think there are those who would, they want a NA manual setup vs forced induction auto. Some feel the 350 looks better than the 500. I myself wouldn't consider an R as I need 4 seats. But I may consider a 500 when the prices fall.

What you fail to understand is the 350R is still in high demand even throughout the 500 rollout and although not as high as previous years there are still markups. You are not seeing 6k - 10k discounts like other models. If dealers were panicking they would be heavily discounting.

That demand is because there are no other choices or options for someone who wants a Mustang but not a GT. You're either stuck with the grossly underperforming GT350, the overpriced GT350R, paying markups on a Base GT500, or paying markups on top of the $94K CF GT500 LOL!!

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That demand is because there are no other choices or options for someone who wants a Mustang but not a GT. You're either stuck with the grossly underperforming GT350, the overpriced GT350R, paying markups on a Base GT500, or paying markups on top of the $94K CF GT500 LOL!!

I've noticed you're quite annoyed about what others do with their money. Not everyone...because there are brand fanbois who buy the brand...but most have cross shopped, including me because I'm a car enthusiast before a brand enthusiast. Who are you to tell me anything about what I wanted to do with my money? Have you even driven an R? I would guess not. You don't have a clue about the cosmic gravitational positive feeling I have owning one of these low production very special and unique vehicles. To have it in my garage. Fire it up and run thru the gears on smooth road. I worked hard for it. It satisfies me and that's the only thing that matters. And you're really a sad sack to make anybody feel like they have something lesser. You couldn't be anymore mistaken. I think it's quite possible you have a psychological issue with your own inferiority with the way you go on an on. Why can't you just be happier? About everything.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

I've noticed you're quite annoyed about what others do with their money. Not everyone...because there are brand fanbois who buy the brand...but most have cross shopped, including me because I'm a car enthusiast before a brand enthusiast. Who are you to tell me anything about what I wanted to do with my money? Have you even driven an R? I would guess not. You don't have a clue about the cosmic gravitational positive feeling I have owning one of these low production very special and unique vehicles. To have it in my garage. Fire it up and run thru the gears on smooth road. I worked hard for it. It satisfies me and that's the only thing that matters. And you're really a sad sack to make anybody feel like they have something lesser. You couldn't be anymore mistaken. I think it's quite possible you have a psychological issue with your own inferiority with the way you go on an on. Why can't you just be happier? About everything.

Says the Mustang guy on a Camaro forum while trying to troll Camaro owners about the GT500.

If you were so "live and let live", what are you doing here?

The hypocracy is staggering...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I guess I'll just never understand the mentality of buying something that performs less but costs more. I could see if the R was much cheaper or offered luxury components/options that are not available in the GT500 or was a different model. Like let's say the R was $60K and the GT500 is $74K I could see how someone who can afford both might be attracted to the R. Or in the case of cars like a Vette vs a Camaro I could see someone being attracted to a Vette over a ZL1. But the GT350R and the GT500 are both Mustangs. If the SRT8 was the same price as a Hellcat or the Hellcat was the same price as the Redeye or a Nismo 370Z priced the same as a GTR then why would anyone pick the slower of the two? At the same price, and if both are on the lot at the same time, I don't see how or why anyone would walk past a GT500 and choose the R. Regardless of trans or higher revving engines. The performance difference between those two cars are significant. The gap is too wide.

If someone can honestly say they would walk past the GT500 and buy the more expensive R and truly be happy with that decision, then damned if I know anything. And it baffles me that a company can offer a car that is slower in everything while costing more and people buy it. I have not seen that attitude with any other car. Now what I think is that people just say they prefer the R because deep down inside they know the GT500 is pretty much unattainable. Or they know they won't get it at a decent price. And what I also don't understand is how come out of all the people talking GT500 nobody is actually buying one. LostM claimed he was buying one but I think he was FOS. Even if he was telling the truth that is just one person. So I don't get it and I probably never will.

Rodan makes a pretty good comparable below

Originally Posted by Rodan

How about a Porsche GT3?

A good friend has a 997.1 GT3. It's slower than my ZL1, but if I had the money, I'd own one in a heartbeat. And not because it's a "Porsche".... because it's an AMAZING car to drive.

There's more to the equation than outright performance, and people put emphasis on different aspects.

Newmoon is correct (ouch, that hurt) that many reviewers picked the clearly inferior performing GT350 over the ZL1... they put a big emphasis on a 'driving experience' that IMHO was mostly driven by the exhaust sound. I got over being loud when I hit 30, so that doesn't really appeal to me. Add in the ADM, cheap interior, and engine problems, and I wasn't all that interested in a GT350. They do sound good, though...

Like I have said many many times, some times it is not about the all out perfromance but the experience. Martin hit the nail pretty good too, knew he wold track the car, the 1LE is clearly a better track car than his convertible, but he wanted the top down experience. Paid more for that "experience" than the better performing track car.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You did not understand what I wrote. So try again.

Let's say you were buying a Mustang and there was a GT500 AND a GT350R on the lot. Both were optioned how you wanted it. The GT350R was more expensive. Are you telling me that you would buy the R over the GT500?

Subjectively a magazine can tell me that a Prius is better looking than a ZR1. And subjectively speaking they would be correct. Someone else could say a Yugo is better looking than a Mustang GT. And subjectively speaking they would be correct. What I want to know from all these Mustang guys is if they would choose a GT350R over a cheaper GT500.

I mentioned that I could understand if the car is a different make or model. Like why some people would choose something like a C7 GS over a ZL1 even tho the ZL1 is the better performer. The Vette is a Vette and people will buy it even if it is more expensive but performs less than a Camaro. Your example falls into that category. However the GT350R is a Mustang and the GT500 is a Mustang. That is why I'm asking these guys if they would buy a GT350R over a GT500.

Not for nothing but the GT350 non-R is not even worth mentioning. Looking at the performance of both cars, I want to know who in their right mind would pick a more expensive GT350R over a GT500. I do not think anyone actually would. I think the problem is that the GT500 is unattainable. And that being the case, Ford can price the GT350R higher because you'd have no other choice. I do not think that anyone would pick the R over the GT500 for any reason. Even a hardcore manual trans guy.

Why did some people back in the day buy a small block when they could buy a big block? Why did people pay 75K for a 15 Z/28 when there was a fully optioned 60K ZL1? Why do some people buy a harley instead of a sport bike? The C7 GS with Z07 package is only
about 7 grand less than a Z06 but a Z06 would stomp it in every arena but tons pof people love the GS and you can even option up a GS past base Z06 pricing. The answer is variety is the spice of life.

To answer your question, I would have to drive both of them, whichever one made me smile more would get my money. My head right now tells me I would probably lean GT500 - and that is mostly because I have always been a straightline guy and never been on a road course. I don't know if I would appreciate the lighter feeling/better handling characteristics. If I was a track rat and loved the twisties I might feel different. I won't lie though, the thought of having a car that can rev past 8K, has a manual, that sweet exhaust sound and the fact there is still nothing like it would be tempting.

Hell but I have also even said numerous times at this price point I would rather have a slower corvette than a faster Camaro/Mustang/Challenger simply because it's a corvette. All out objective performance sometimes isn't the only thing that matters

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I agree. The 600+ HP cars are fun but heavier and gather speed so fast you can only make use of it all on a track. And you better know what you are doing. Is too much too much?

Less so with the GT350 but it too is too much for the street. I am sure it feels lighter and more tossable than the GT500 and is very unique with that motor and the sound. And is more collectable I would think. I would love to own one but not as my daily. Beautiful car.

I got bored with an auto in my ZL1, as great as it is. I grew up loving the manuals. So I can relate to that choice. Plus if you have plenty of cash no car will be your last until it is. Sample both.

This ^ some people just like manual NA cars more than cars with power adders.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Rodan makes a pretty good comparable below

"Or in the case of cars like a Vette vs a Camaro I could see someone being attracted to a Vette over a ZL1. But the GT350R and the GT500 are both Mustangs. If the SRT8 was the same price as a Hellcat or the Hellcat was the same price as the Redeye or a Nismo 370Z priced the same as a GTR then why would anyone pick the slower of the two? At the same price, and if both are on the lot at the same time, I don't see how or why anyone would walk past a GT500 and choose the R."

That comparison does not apply to my statements because they are different cars from different manufacturers. The R and the 500 are both Mustangs. They have the same options and offerings. They have the same chassis, interior, dimensions, styling, etc. One costs more but performs less. The other performs better but has markups attached. So my assertion is that the R costs what it costs only because there is no other choice or option. Out of everyone on here that I asked, not one person can say that they would pick the R over the 500 if both cars were on the lot at the same time and at the same price.

I said it many times and you love to argue it. Markups killed the Mustang pricing scheme. Ford took note how much people were willing to pay for the GT350(R). They then priced the GT500 according to that and factored in that people would pay markups for it as well. That allowed them to increase the price of the R to where it is actually more expensive than the GT500 MSRP to MSRP. And people will pay it because they have no choice now. It's either pay R MSRP and get a car that performs less than a cheaper Mustang, or pay insane markups for a GT500.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

I've noticed you're quite annoyed about what others do with their money. Not everyone...because there are brand fanbois who buy the brand...but most have cross shopped, including me because I'm a car enthusiast before a brand enthusiast. Who are you to tell me anything about what I wanted to do with my money? Have you even driven an R? I would guess not. You don't have a clue about the cosmic gravitational positive feeling I have owning one of these low production very special and unique vehicles. To have it in my garage. Fire it up and run thru the gears on smooth road. I worked hard for it. It satisfies me and that's the only thing that matters. And you're really a sad sack to make anybody feel like they have something lesser. You couldn't be anymore mistaken. I think it's quite possible you have a psychological issue with your own inferiority with the way you go on an on. Why can't you just be happier? About everything.

I drove one. Didn't care much for it. I was more influenced by how it doesn't accelerate like I would expect a car at that price to accelerate. I don't care about "cosmic gravitational feelings". That isn't what I pay for. Not $70K at least. Show me on paper what I'm getting out of the car. You can't. Because it doesn't exist.

The R performs less than the 500 in everything. It doesn't offer anything different or better to justify the extra cost. You bought your R because you got it at a discounted price. You would not have bought it at MSRP because you do not think it is worth the price. That is why you waited as long as you did and searched around like you did to buy one. Yet you talk about how desirable these cars are. The most desirable car on the planet that has people willing to pay thousands over MSRP yet you waited quite a long time to get one with a discount. But we should take your word for it?

Now I ask again, what am I getting for the extra money that the R costs over the 500? If I was at a dealership and both cars were there and I had all the stats and options in front of me, what does the R have that would make me choose it over the 500?

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Now I ask again, what am I getting for the extra money that the R costs over the 500? If I was at a dealership and both cars were there and I had all the stats and options in front of me, what does the R have that would make me choose it over the 500?

An N/A V8 and a manual transmission.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Now I ask again, what am I getting for the extra money that the R costs over the 500? If I was at a dealership and both cars were there and I had all the stats and options in front of me, what does the R have that would make me choose it over the 500?

Lower ADM. That's it. The R has a higher MSRP solely because it is the only Shelby reasonably available. Now unless for some reason a person just LOVES the Voodoo and absolutely has to have it for subjective reasons there is no other reason to get it over the 500 except that the 500 has ridiculous ADM.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I drove one. Didn't care much for it. I was more influenced by how it doesn't accelerate like I would expect a car at that price to accelerate. I don't care about "cosmic gravitational feelings". That isn't what I pay for. Not $70K at least. Show me on paper what I'm getting out of the car. You can't. Because it doesn't exist.

The R performs less than the 500 in everything. It doesn't offer anything different or better to justify the extra cost. You bought your R because you got it at a discounted price. You would not have bought it at MSRP because you do not think it is worth the price. That is why you waited as long as you did and searched around like you did to buy one. Yet you talk about how desirable these cars are. The most desirable car on the planet that has people willing to pay thousands over MSRP yet you waited quite a long time to get one with a discount. But we should take your word for it?

Now I ask again, what am I getting for the extra money that the R costs over the 500? If I was at a dealership and both cars were there and I had all the stats and options in front of me, what does the R have that would make me choose it over the 500?

I pay for cars that resonate with me. Yes I would have bought it at MSRP. I paid very close to it anyway. It's a ****in R man. Like I said, after I decided to buy one, I searched for a 3 1/2 months. They are still going for AT LEAST MSRP here locally and in many cases have ADM. I did find a 2020 R for $1k over invoice about 60 miles away. I look out for them for friends and members elsewhere.

I traded off a 12 Boss for 14 GT500 thinking I was upgrading all around. Looking back, I made a mistake. That Boss was a fun driver and handled better. The 14 GT500 had amenities and straight-line power that was hard to put down and a huge pucker factor in corners. I won't do that again. I'm keeping the R and if I gotta have a 2020 GT500, I'll get a lightly used one or a deal somewhere. Not in a hurry. My R will paid off late spring I estimate.

As another poster already said, N/A engine that revs to the moon and is the best sound I've ever heard. The exhaust literally needs nothing. Precise smooth as butter manual trans. Power with balance. World class handling. Rarity, ~4k R's produced over 6 years. I'm set. I thoroughly enjoy it. Has it depreciated? Certainly. Everything in my price range does. I didn't buy it to store and look at it.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Rodan makes a pretty good comparable below



Like I have said many many times, some times it is not about the all out perfromance but the experience. Martin hit the nail pretty good too, knew he wold track the car, the 1LE is clearly a better track car than his convertible, but he wanted the top down experience. Paid more for that "experience" than the better performing track car.



Why did some people back in the day buy a small block when they could buy a big block? Why did people pay 75K for a 15 Z/28 when there was a fully optioned 60K ZL1? Why do some people buy a harley instead of a sport bike? The C7 GS with Z07 package is only
about 7 grand less than a Z06 but a Z06 would stomp it in every arena but tons pof people love the GS and you can even option up a GS past base Z06 pricing. The answer is variety is the spice of life.

To answer your question, I would have to drive both of them, whichever one made me smile more would get my money. My head right now tells me I would probably lean GT500 - and that is mostly because I have always been a straightline guy and never been on a road course. I don't know if I would appreciate the lighter feeling/better handling characteristics. If I was a track rat and loved the twisties I might feel different. I won't lie though, the thought of having a car that can rev past 8K, has a manual, that sweet exhaust sound and the fact there is still nothing like it would be tempting.

Hell but I have also even said numerous times at this price point I would rather have a slower corvette than a faster Camaro/Mustang/Challenger simply because it's a corvette. All out objective performance sometimes isn't the only thing that matters



This ^ some people just like manual NA cars more than cars with power adders.

This is me, that's why I chose the GS over a Z06, and the SS 1le over the Zl1. I also don't give a shit about a10 cars and their 2 tenths advantage in 0-60 and 1/4 racing. Also why I think the gt500 is cool, it's fast and powerful, but doesn't do much for me. I'll take a slower Zle if I was after big power or a way slower gt350/350R if I needed said manual v8 sports car to be a Mustang.

If I was willing to spend 100k+ on it, then I'd go c7 Zr1 m7 all day. Now a manual gt500 for 75 to 85k would have my attention for sure.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

"Or in the case of cars like a Vette vs a Camaro I could see someone being attracted to a Vette over a ZL1. But the GT350R and the GT500 are both Mustangs. If the SRT8 was the same price as a Hellcat or the Hellcat was the same price as the Redeye or a Nismo 370Z priced the same as a GTR then why would anyone pick the slower of the two? At the same price, and if both are on the lot at the same time, I don't see how or why anyone would walk past a GT500 and choose the R."

There were plenty of people that walked past the more powerful, loaded, more comfortable ZL1 and chose the more expensive Z/28 despite it being slower in the 1/4 mile but better on a road course. There are people that have chosen optioned up Grand Sport Corvettes over Z06s that cost the same or less. You seem unable to look past any from of subjective reasoning some people may have for what they purchase. Which is fine, I totally see where you are coming from. Hell I even questioned a while ago why sell both at the same time, but apparently the 350 is still selling well enough to warrant being around - we will see once the 500 is in full swing though.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

[B]

That comparison does not apply to my statements because they are different cars from different manufacturers. The R and the 500 are both Mustangs. They have the same options and offerings. They have the same chassis, interior, dimensions, styling, etc. One costs more but performs less. The other performs better but has markups attached. So my assertion is that the R costs what it costs only because there is no other choice or option. Out of everyone on here that I asked, not one person can say that they would pick the R over the 500 if both cars were on the lot at the same time and at the same price.

Yes not many people straight up said they would take the R myself included, but from what I gather from these posts

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I'm going to have to agree here. This coming spring I may actually be in the market for a 350. The 500, while cool, doesn't appeal to me near as much as the 350.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Get a gt350 instead of the R and you can get it for considerably less than gt500 money.

What if someone is a mustang fan, loves the way they look, feel, and sound but wants a more connected visceral manual car experience? The 350/350R is obviously the way to go for them. If I was a ford loyalist it'd be gt350 or pp2 for me and no other way about it. Those are the best options offered for people with those preferences, and for a brand loyalist the thought of a better performing camaro for the money wouldn't sway their decision anyways. Might not be the most logical but personal preferances weight heavily in sports car buying decisions.
.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Speaking just for myself, it comes down to balance of wants and needs.

My car stickered at over $55k. SS 1LE performs better and there were some on the lot that stickered in the mid $40k range. I definitely wanted a car that I could take to the track, so 1LE made a lot of sense. But I wanted that soft top more than I wanted the guarantee of bragging rights over a GT350 and had no issues with dropping back a little in performance to get what I want. As much as I like going to the track, that still is only about 5% of my driving. The car has to be able to deliver what I want the other 95% of the time. For me, the vert does that better than the 1LE.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Same here. The 350 has a much more classic look too, decades from now I think it will still be considered one of the best looking pony cars ever. Plus yeah, that DCT will be pretty boring in comparison to a manual.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I'm sure there are some that would choose the gt350 over the 500, definately true enthusiasts of a driver involved car.
It is what it is. Brand loyalty and fanboyism is part of car culture. There's car guys and there's specific car guys.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I do understand how somebody would prefer a high winding NA manual setup vs a forced induction auto. It's the same reason folks paid more money for the less powerful Z28 vs the ZL1.

Originally Posted by Laststandard

An N/A V8 and a manual transmission.

They all make a case as to why someone would. All out performance sometimes is not the only factor. You want the all out performance , totally understandable but some people would rather row their own gears and have a screaming NA engine than a supercharged automatic. It kind of goes to why some people still choose a manual vs the auto. The auto is faster and now with how good they are even faster on a road course. But people feel the connection to the car with the manual.

Only other comparable I can think of right now is when I go to the range. I have become quite the fan of revolvers. The two I frequently take with me on range days, they are big, heavy, uncomfortable to shoot, get dirtier faster, I am not as accurate with them and oh yeah alot more expensive to have a range day with. But you know what, they put the biggest smile on my face. That's what matters to me with my hobbies is what do I get the most enjoyment out of.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

[B]
I said it many times and you love to argue it. Markups killed the Mustang pricing scheme. Ford took note how much people were willing to pay for the GT350(R). They then priced the GT500 according to that and factored in that people would pay markups for it as well. That allowed them to increase the price of the R to where it is actually more expensive than the GT500 MSRP to MSRP. And people will pay it because they have no choice now. It's either pay R MSRP and get a car that performs less than a cheaper Mustang, or pay insane markups for a GT500.

I still strongly disagree that ford saw markups, and that is why the GT350 is priced the way it is. i think the price has gone up because they have had to go back and fix stuff(no coolers, updating packages, more standard content, warranty claims)

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I drove one. Didn't care much for it. I was more influenced by how it doesn't accelerate like I would expect a car at that price to accelerate. I don't care about "cosmic gravitational feelings". That isn't what I pay for. Not $70K at least. Show me on paper what I'm getting out of the car. You can't. Because it doesn't exist.


Now I ask again, what am I getting for the extra money that the R costs over the 500? If I was at a dealership and both cars were there and I had all the stats and options in front of me, what does the R have that would make me choose it over the 500?

I get it, you can't see any subjective reason why someone would prefer something over something else. You want to see a measurable as to why, you want the bragging rights. There is nothing wrong with that. What I think is wrong is it seems you are trying to fault someone for making a subjective decision.