Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction Discussions


AWE Tuning


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-28-2022, 06:02 AM   #15
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,609
Hot temps hurt blowers, period. Both air-air systems like yours and also water-air systems like the roots blowers have. I've been at the dragstrip on a hot day with my supercharger and talked to a modded Hellcat guy (water-air) and he told me that he was down by 8mph that day. Another hot day, I saw an air-air setup on a built motor with meth injection, and he ran 10.3, then few months later when the air was cooler he ran in the 9s. Meaning, even with benefits over your current setup (either water intercooler or methanol injection), heat still produced lower performance.

My suggestion when you race is to temporarily pull the front plate and bracket off, like the Chevy track prep manual says for the ZL1.

One thing that you can do to lower MAT a little is to run the coolant at a lower temp like KingLT1 did on his own car in the thread he's mentioning. Using a lower temp thermostat and adjusting fan settings accordingly. I suggest a Katech 160 or 174 because of their quality, and definitely NOT the Mishimoto thermostat.

As far as meth injection for cooling, I think that a safer setup would be a single-nozzle water-meth injection system with windshield solvent like laynlo15 was using on his blower for awhile. Reducing the amount of meth to ~35% means less change to your tune, and therefore less chance of blowing up if pump fails/tank runs dry. The high water content is good for cooling too. The concerns about fuel distribution in a manifold designed for dry flow IMO would be lower with a fairly modest amount of meth going in (like my proposed scenario) than with 2 or 3 nozzles worth of 100% meth like some guys are using in the charge tube.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 07:27 AM   #16
cjperformance
 
cjperformance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 50th Anniversary
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Missouri
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
Hot temps hurt blowers, period. Both air-air systems like yours and also water-air systems like the roots blowers have. I've been at the dragstrip on a hot day with my supercharger and talked to a modded Hellcat guy (water-air) and he told me that he was down by 8mph that day. Another hot day, I saw an air-air setup on a built motor with meth injection, and he ran 10.3, then few months later when the air was cooler he ran in the 9s. Meaning, even with benefits over your current setup (either water intercooler or methanol injection), heat still produced lower performance.

My suggestion when you race is to temporarily pull the front plate and bracket off, like the Chevy track prep manual says for the ZL1.

One thing that you can do to lower MAT a little is to run the coolant at a lower temp like KingLT1 did on his own car in the thread he's mentioning. Using a lower temp thermostat and adjusting fan settings accordingly. I suggest a Katech 160 or 174 because of their quality, and definitely NOT the Mishimoto thermostat.

As far as meth injection for cooling, I think that a safer setup would be a single-nozzle water-meth injection system with windshield solvent like laynlo15 was using on his blower for awhile. Reducing the amount of meth to ~35% means less change to your tune, and therefore less chance of blowing up if pump fails/tank runs dry. The high water content is good for cooling too. The concerns about fuel distribution in a manifold designed for dry flow IMO would be lower with a fairly modest amount of meth going in (like my proposed scenario) than with 2 or 3 nozzles worth of 100% meth like some guys are using in the charge tube.
WWT has a couple of test n tune type events coming up this week, but with day temps in the 90s, and the fact my DRs havent even shipped out yet... i might skip. Even in the evenings, the temps will probably be high 80s. Might be dry heat though... pretty dry around here lately. Ill keep an eye on weather.

Thats all good info. Thank you. The thermostat is a good idea. I have it on the TODO list. I should move it up on the priority list. Ill have to read up more on water/meth inj to get a better idea of what i would need to do, but running lower meth % as you mention is a helpful suggestion. It sounds like a fun project, but not sure i want to go there yet. Im curious how the added humidity with the addl water being injected will affect combustion vs the cooling it (water + meth) can provide. Since im trying to stick to a no dyno self-tune that sounds challenging.... but fun.

I also like 1LEornothing's suggestion of spraying distilled water on the intercooler. I think the air-air ic hidden behind so much stuff in the front end is not ideal. Was trying to think of a way to chill the intercooler. I may play around with using a meth inj kit to trigger spraying distilled water on the ic. I would think that a meth kit would contain all the appropriate electronics and hardware to trigger a pump or solenoid to spray water on an ic. May have to fab up some brackets and figure out what can spray an adequate volume of water. Not sure a meth nozzle designed for spraying an intake tract would work like that. If it doesnt work out then maybe ill be able to use the same kit for its original purpose.

I drive 99% on the street. I dont need fast track times other than for bragging rights and validation of the tune. Im more concerned about doing hard pulls on the street and damaging the motor in the heat.
__________________
2017 50th Anniversary Edition | P1X Stage 2
DSX Aux Low Side, LT4 high side, Flex Fuel, Baro Breakout, 3-bar MAP
CircleD 3K Stall | QA1 CF Driveshaft
Front - Racestar Recluse 95 20x10 22 offset NT555G2 285/30-20
Rear - Racestar Recluse 95 20x11 41 offset NT05 (current) NT555R2 (if they ever ship) 305/30-20
cjperformance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 06:05 PM   #17
Trochoidal

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: May 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 1,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
WWT has a couple of test n tune type events coming up this week, but with day temps in the 90s, and the fact my DRs havent even shipped out yet... i might skip. Even in the evenings, the temps will probably be high 80s. Might be dry heat though... pretty dry around here lately. Ill keep an eye on weather.

Thats all good info. Thank you. The thermostat is a good idea. I have it on the TODO list. I should move it up on the priority list. Ill have to read up more on water/meth inj to get a better idea of what i would need to do, but running lower meth % as you mention is a helpful suggestion. It sounds like a fun project, but not sure i want to go there yet. Im curious how the added humidity with the addl water being injected will affect combustion vs the cooling it (water + meth) can provide. Since im trying to stick to a no dyno self-tune that sounds challenging.... but fun.

I also like 1LEornothing's suggestion of spraying distilled water on the intercooler. I think the air-air ic hidden behind so much stuff in the front end is not ideal. Was trying to think of a way to chill the intercooler. I may play around with using a meth inj kit to trigger spraying distilled water on the ic. I would think that a meth kit would contain all the appropriate electronics and hardware to trigger a pump or solenoid to spray water on an ic. May have to fab up some brackets and figure out what can spray an adequate volume of water. Not sure a meth nozzle designed for spraying an intake tract would work like that. If it doesnt work out then maybe ill be able to use the same kit for its original purpose.

I drive 99% on the street. I dont need fast track times other than for bragging rights and validation of the tune. Im more concerned about doing hard pulls on the street and damaging the motor in the heat.
This seems like a good option to try especially since your after “street cooling”. Spraying the intercooler at the track probably is off the table.
__________________
Roto-Fab w/sound tube delete, Katech ported TB, Pray IM, Velossa, DD side markers, DSX FF, UPR Catch can, Halo brace, My custom vent gauge pod
Trochoidal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 07:03 PM   #18
cjperformance
 
cjperformance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 50th Anniversary
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Missouri
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
This seems like a good option to try especially since your after “street cooling”. Spraying the intercooler at the track probably is off the table.
Right. Good point. Right up there with dripping your A/C condensation on the track for the next guy. I wondered why that wasnt common
__________________
2017 50th Anniversary Edition | P1X Stage 2
DSX Aux Low Side, LT4 high side, Flex Fuel, Baro Breakout, 3-bar MAP
CircleD 3K Stall | QA1 CF Driveshaft
Front - Racestar Recluse 95 20x10 22 offset NT555G2 285/30-20
Rear - Racestar Recluse 95 20x11 41 offset NT05 (current) NT555R2 (if they ever ship) 305/30-20
cjperformance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 08:14 PM   #19
Joshinator99


 
Joshinator99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Petersham MA
Posts: 2,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
Right. Good point. Right up there with dripping your A/C condensation on the track for the next guy. I wondered why that wasnt common
If you want to spray the intercooler, CO2 is a dry option that will cool better than water and not get the track wet.
__________________
2017 Chevy Camaro 2SS A8 Kong ported Whipple 8.00/3.00, Mast Black Label heads, Fore triple in-tank pumps, 229/245 cam, Rotofab Big Gulp, 112mm TB, forged pistons & rods, LPE +52% injectors, LPE BB HPFP, AWE CB, GForce DS & axles, 2” coated headers, MM Wild CC, everything BMR makes, OEM 1LE wheels (street), Forgestar D5 bead locks (track). 955 WHP/842 WTQ, 9.65@146
2021 Ford Expedition Limited 4WD (daily driver)
2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport Q4 (hers)
Joshinator99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 08:46 PM   #20
Trochoidal

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: May 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 1,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
Right. Good point. Right up there with dripping your A/C condensation on the track for the next guy. I wondered why that wasnt common
When I read your post, I was thinking damn that would work.

A quick back story. While I’m true to my Chevy roots, I help out a friend when we go to the track together and also my cousin.

My friend is running a 440 Coronet (100% street trim. 10.14@135) with a 118 rear mount. Car runs good. I help him out with tuning and we go back and forth on various ideas, especially at the track. He’s battling IAT’s too and we’re 50/50 water meth. I almost called him after reading your post and it hit me. Wait, that water has to go someplace.

My cousins car is a SBF Mustang with Procharger. (4.56 in the 1/8th) We are always talking about IAT’s, ice box changes, intake plumbing changes, etc.

Anyway, for all of the years we’ve been to the track together, spraying the intercooler was never a thought.

Keep those ideas coming. You may unknowingly help us out too.
__________________
Roto-Fab w/sound tube delete, Katech ported TB, Pray IM, Velossa, DD side markers, DSX FF, UPR Catch can, Halo brace, My custom vent gauge pod
Trochoidal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 10:17 PM   #21
1LEornothing

 
Drives: 2020 LT1 M6
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South, the DEEP south
Posts: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
When I read your post, I was thinking damn that would work.

A quick back story. While I’m true to my Chevy roots, I help out a friend when we go to the track together and also my cousin.

My friend is running a 440 Coronet (100% street trim. 10.14@135) with a 118 rear mount. Car runs good. I help him out with tuning and we go back and forth on various ideas, especially at the track. He’s battling IAT’s too and we’re 50/50 water meth. I almost called him after reading your post and it hit me. Wait, that water has to go someplace.

My cousins car is a SBF Mustang with Procharger. (4.56 in the 1/8th) We are always talking about IAT’s, ice box changes, intake plumbing changes, etc.

Anyway, for all of the years we’ve been to the track together, spraying the intercooler was never a thought.

Keep those ideas coming. You may unknowingly help us out too.
I hear that man, I've been a fan of this ever since I witnessed it in person. I never sprayed any air 2 air intercooler I ever had, but when I saw it successfully done in 90°F+ humid air and again repeated on a hot summer day, I became a firm believer. Whether your purge CO2+H2O or simply redirect your little nitrous purge towards the intercooler instead of the air (atmosphere), you get a dramatic reduction in IAT temps that will keep the timing pulling at bay.
1LEornothing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2022, 01:01 AM   #22
95 imp
Dumb Ass Deluxe
 
Drives: A Tricked Out Mountain Bike
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
When I read your post, I was thinking damn that would work.

Wait, that water has to go someplace.
You don't want to drench the intercooler, you want to "mist it". It's more efficient.

You'll pull way more heat off the IC evaporating water than hosing it down. (970 BTU/LB evaporating vs. 1 BTU/LB running water over it.)

Set it up on a timer (ex. 2 on/2 off), or maybe a boost switch, so you don't overspray the IC and drip. Even if the mist didn't quite hit the IC, cooling the air in front of it will drop the air temp before it goes through.

I'm sure you'd have to play with it like carb jets depending on temp and humidity to get/keep the right balance though.
__________________
95 imp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2022, 10:22 PM   #23
asthmamax11
 
asthmamax11's Avatar
 
Drives: 1SS Summit White 6 speed
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 409
One of the guys from Procharger had a massive thread all about this a few years ago.
Wish I remembered his name.

The thread was interesting.
He did make some pretty big claims though...
__________________
16 1SS M6 White
Magnuson
Roto Fab
Solo Performance axle back
Hurst short shifter
551/541


02 Z28 M6
80k miles
T-tops
Leather
Joy to drive this classic every day!
Daily Driver
asthmamax11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2022, 10:39 PM   #24
Trochoidal

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: May 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 1,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95 imp View Post
You don't want to drench the intercooler, you want to "mist it". It's more efficient.

You'll pull way more heat off the IC evaporating water than hosing it down. (970 BTU/LB evaporating vs. 1 BTU/LB running water over it.)

Set it up on a timer (ex. 2 on/2 off), or maybe a boost switch, so you don't overspray the IC and drip. Even if the mist didn't quite hit the IC, cooling the air in front of it will drop the air temp before it goes through.

I'm sure you'd have to play with it like carb jets depending on temp and humidity to get/keep the right balance though.
What a great idea and if we implement this, I’ll be sure to offer feedback. Thanks!
__________________
Roto-Fab w/sound tube delete, Katech ported TB, Pray IM, Velossa, DD side markers, DSX FF, UPR Catch can, Halo brace, My custom vent gauge pod
Trochoidal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2022, 08:01 AM   #25
cjperformance
 
cjperformance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 50th Anniversary
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Missouri
Posts: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochoidal View Post
What a great idea and if we implement this, I’ll be sure to offer feedback. Thanks!
Im interested in the results too. My car budget is low right now, or id do it. Im interested in this approach because my fueling is spot on right now, and i dont want to mess with it. Im sure spraying in the actual intake stream prob cools better, but then im basically fueling with meth.... and i want to avoid that.
__________________
2017 50th Anniversary Edition | P1X Stage 2
DSX Aux Low Side, LT4 high side, Flex Fuel, Baro Breakout, 3-bar MAP
CircleD 3K Stall | QA1 CF Driveshaft
Front - Racestar Recluse 95 20x10 22 offset NT555G2 285/30-20
Rear - Racestar Recluse 95 20x11 41 offset NT05 (current) NT555R2 (if they ever ship) 305/30-20
cjperformance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2022, 09:16 AM   #26
Trochoidal

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: May 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 1,383
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperformance View Post
Im interested in the results too. My car budget is low right now, or id do it. Im interested in this approach because my fueling is spot on right now, and i dont want to mess with it. Im sure spraying in the actual intake stream prob cools better, but then im basically fueling with meth.... and i want to avoid that.
These are good points and I wouldn’t want to go with meth as a fuel mix on the LT1. IDC who has ran it with good results. It works but dang, if/when it fails carnage could ensue.

A non-related question, do you have any videos of your car with the current setup?
__________________
Roto-Fab w/sound tube delete, Katech ported TB, Pray IM, Velossa, DD side markers, DSX FF, UPR Catch can, Halo brace, My custom vent gauge pod
Trochoidal is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.