[Johnman]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

My guess my Camaro will be reliable for years to come. However, quality control is pretty bad / hit or miss from the lowest to highest model. My 2019 - I had to adjust both the hood and trunk stops, the carbon fiber insert rubs the hood at the edge (I’ll have to adjust that), the dash insert needed to be pushed under the dash display, the dash spacing between each door is way off, the rear bumper seams are uneven, there’s a painted line and a small blob of caulk at the leading bottom edge of drivers door, the C for camaro on the illuminated sil bent by breathing on it with a micro fiber rag, had to re-secure the clips for diff cooler lines. Love the car, but there are reasons Camaro got some low marks...

Non of those faults affect "reliability".

[JROC]

In terms of quality I would say that GM quality is way better than it was 15-20 years ago. My new SS is much better constructed than my old 02 SS. Not even close. GM used to be plagued with goofy issues like window motors going bad, electronic systems acting weird, weak and noisy rearends, etc.

With that said quality doesn't necessarily equate to reliability. (Even though it can) Other than the alternator going bad the LS Juan was always reliable. These newer and more advanced/complicated with systems like VVT, DI, and AFM(DOD) haven't proven to be as reliable as the GEN3/GEN4 SBC's that precessed them. JMO.

Vehicles in general seem to have more issues than they used too. Not unexpected though with all the electronics and modern systems decide to give smaller motors more performance, with better fuel economy, and more refinement.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by JROC

In terms of quality I would say that GM quality is way better than it was 15-20 years ago. My new SS is much better constructed than my old 02 SS. Not even close. GM used to be plagued with goofy issues like window motors going bad, electronic systems acting weird, weak and noisy rearends, etc.

With that said quality doesn't necessarily equate to reliability. (Even though it can) Other than the alternator going bad the LS Juan was always reliable. These newer and more advanced/complicated with systems like VVT, DI, and AFM(DOD) haven't proven to be as reliable as the GEN3/GEN4 SBC's that precessed them. JMO.

Vehicles in general seem to have more issues than they used too. Not unexpected though with all the electronics and modern systems decide to give smaller motors more performance, with better fuel economy, and more refinement.

Quality - does what the customer expects it to do
Reliability - does it every time the customer expects it to
Durability - does it for as long as the customer expects it to

Note it's related to customer expectation. Engineering turns that into quantifiable metrics for design and validation.

So Quality has little to do with Reliability other than some people would use the word quality as an umbrella word to cover all 3 elements.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by Johnman

Non of those faults afect "reliability".

Never said they did, but some of the areas I mentioned contribute to CR scaling. Unfortunate, but true.

The shuddering 8 speed, cold engine misfire, NPP rattle, occasional antilock brake dysfunction and differential groan could be added to my issues list (for my now gone 2016) I would say 3 out of 5 of these are reliability issues.

[Craig]

In-class comparisons are the ones that are valuable. A sports car is never going to have reliability comparable to a four wheeled appliance.

My fourth gen Camaro went through 4-5 sets of front rotors, a couple alternators, a belt tensioner, water pump, and had a dead AC compressor & PW motor and a slipping clutch when I was forced to dump it with 167k due to a cross country move. I was very pleased with the overall reliability considering what I put it through.

I picked up a 2005 Pontiac Vibe used when they were the best used car values on the market (a Toyota Matrix with Pontiac depreciation). 244k on the clock and the interior fan is the only mechanical repair of any kind the car has needed, amazing. But subject it to a couple hundred 1/4 passes, a few afternoons on the road course, a few thousand power shifts, etc, like my Camaro and it would be in the wrecking yard by now.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Craig

In-class comparisons are the ones that are valuable. A sports car is never going to have reliability comparable to a four wheeled appliance.

My fourth gen Camaro went through 4-5 sets of front rotors, a couple alternators, a belt tensioner, water pump, and had a dead AC compressor & PW motor and a slipping clutch when I was forced to dump it with 167k due to a cross country move. I was very pleased with the overall reliability considering what I put it through.

I picked up a 2005 Pontiac Vibe used when they were the best used car values on the market (a Toyota Matrix with Pontiac depreciation). 244k on the clock and the interior fan is the only mechanical repair of any kind the car has needed, amazing. But subject it to a couple hundred 1/4 passes, a few afternoons on the road course, a few thousand power shifts, etc, like my Camaro and it would be in the wrecking yard by now.

And this is a very valid point. Those Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys that are so raved about never see speeds over 70, it takes those drivers minutes to get there. In a Camaro, 70 is takin' it easy and Camaro drivers get there in a few seconds. Considering what is asked from the typical Camaro, vs the Camry, it's actually quite a machine.

[Bosse'sBoss]

This is B.S. both of my Camaros: '14 ZL1 & '16 SS are very reliable.



I can't say the same of the '14 Stingray Z51 and of my prior '02 Porsche 911 Carrera unreliable vehicles.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

Never said they did, but some of the areas I mentioned contribute to CR scaling. Unfortunate, but true.

The shuddering 8 speed, cold engine misfire, NPP rattle, occasional antilock brake dysfunction and differential groan could be added to my issues list (for my now gone 2016) I would say 3 out of 5 of these are reliability issues.

CR is a joke...have been for years. They are in the back pocket of Toyota and other foreign makers because they are heavily invested in their stock.

[Deputy Dog]

I just turned 30k miles on my SS 6 speed. The only paint defect was the paint on my right front wheel discoloring and they replaced the whole rim with a new one. So far my car has been flawless in dependability and build except for that and run it hard when pulling off exit ramps at every opportunity, and bang gears when the roads are clear. Also keep in mind the are assembly line high performance cars, you would be spending $25 or $30k or much more for this kind of performance from a foreign car, and the quality and certainly the dependability not as good.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by Number 3

No it was NBC Dateline

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...335-story.html

May as well had been...both Fake News.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dog

May as well had been...both Fake News.

Lol sorry but CR is far from fake news. You may not agree with their methodology and survey but it’s what they do and it’s repeatable.

Just because you don’t like the result doesn’t make it fake, it just means you don’t agree, and that’s ok.

[Hops]

While CR is probably not a bad actor, as a non-subcriber, i find the reporting on CR annoying because i'm often not left with any information to judge the meaningfulness of the rating other than how one car ranks relative to another.
For example, if in the extreme case, i'm told CR rates 20 times more problems with one car than another, it's less meaningful to me if the difference was one car only had one problem in 1000 over several years versus the worse car had 20 minor problems with the infotainment over the same sampling. But it's rarely reported in a way for me to judge.
And i'm still reminded this is not a random sampling of owners, but of those who subscribe to CR, and of those, the ones that responded to the survey.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Hops

While CR is probably not a bad actor, as a non-subcriber, i find the reporting on CR annoying because i'm often not left with any information to judge the meaningfulness of the rating other than how one car ranks relative to another.
For example, if in the extreme case, i'm told CR rates 20 times more problems with one car than another, it's less meaningful to me if the difference was one car only had one problem in 1000 over several years versus the worse car had 20 minor problems with the infotainment over the same sampling. But it's rarely reported in a way for me to judge.
And i'm still reminded this is not a random sampling of owners, but of those who subscribe to CR, and of those, the ones that responded to the survey.

They tend to rate and review cars from the perspective of non car people.

Hammered Cadillac for CUE, which while not awesome, was not horrible either.

Even Tesla was beaten up a bit for the auto door handles on the Model S.

Most of heir evaluations are about things many owners or enthusiasts who buy the car don’t care much about.

And a slong as you know where the data comes from and it’s limitations, it can be of value.

The only issue is do you love your Camaro and would you buy another one?

I would say for some cars going on the web to sites like Camaro6 and doing some research might be better than CR. But there aren’t many websites for my LaCrosse lol.

[wintertopdown]

$5 customers expect perfection for nothing and love to complain
$10 customers are happy they can spend their money and carry on
$20 customers understand it's a business
$50 customers consider it to be an art form and enjoy the flaws
$100 customers find it to be the least they can do