[thescreensavers]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I am actually going to prove the make up of the stock lines shortly. I just ordered a front SS 1LE/ATS-V brake line for the sole purpose of deconstructing it.

For the SS 1LE, it shares the same brake lines as the ATS-V (front/rear), according to GM parts. The rears are the same between SS, SS 1LE, ZL1 and ZL1 1LE according to GM parts (as a point of consideration).

Once it comes in, I will update this thread with information and pictures.

Please do when you get to it! I have done the rears but, I have my doubts about the fronts containing any thing special.


With that said the rears have two braids of nylon vs just 1 so that's good!





And here is the OEM brake line of my 97 XJ for comparison.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by thescreensavers

Please do when you get to it! I have done the rears but, I have my doubts about the fronts containing any thing special.


With that said the rears have two braids of nylon vs just 1 so that's good!





And here is the OEM brake line of my 97 XJ for comparison.

I finally got in the front SS 1LE brake line to dissect.

If you're not interested in the details, here are the key points:
-There is no steel reinforcement in the OEM brake lines.
-The front brake lines on the SS 1LE (and likely ZL1 and ZL1 1LE) look to have more reinforcement than the rear lines.
-Some stainless steel braided brake lines will likely not provide a noticeable improvement over the OEM brake lines (mostly the front).

So, the details...

First, a little background on hydraulic brake line/hose for mass-produced vehicles. Brake lines must be FMVSS 106/DOT approved, are SAE J1401 compliant and have to be OEM-spec compliant (in this case, for GM, GMW3056). The FMVSS requires hydraulic brake hose to be marked with date of manufacture, "DOT", which type of expansion performance ("HR" or "HL") and pin-stripped. This is in addition to anything the OEM may require. The expansion performance "HR" means that the brake line is "regular expansion", while "HL" indicates "low expansion". You will, also, typically see "GB 16897" printed on a brake line. The "GB 16897" is a certification standard required for the Chinese market (the Camaro does get sold in China).

The brake line I bought is the latest part number of 84237978 ("7978"). This part number replaces the old of 23318906 ("8906"). Looking at my 2017 SS 1LE and the part I have, it seems there was a change in hose supplier. My stock stuff has "Harco" printed on it and the new part has "Sunsong" printed on it. Further investigation shows that Sunsong bought Harco, so, really, it is the same hose, just under another parent company.

The Harco brake hose product is termed "8820", to which the Harco website states that the brake hose is the lowest volumetric expansion OEM hose currently on the market. The Sunsong website does not go into this detail (which I sort of expect from a larger companies marketing/communication department).

I've looked at the Federal Motor Vehicle Specification FMVSS 106, the SAE J1401 brake hose specification and some information on General Motors specification GMW3056. With what I read and what I can judge from the dissection pictures, these brake hoses are of this construction:

Front: EPDM/RY/x/RY/EPDM
Rear: EPDM/RY/x/PVA/EPDM

EPDM: ethylene propylene diene terpolymer ("rubber")
RY: Rayon [fiber]
x: some binding/cushion rubber layer of manufacturer's choice ("CR", "CM" or "EPDM").
PVA: Polyvinyl Alcohol [fiber]

There is no steel in these hoses; nor is that very likely in any other mass-produced, "affordable" vehicle. The cost for that doesn't make sense for a vehicle like the Camaro; maybe a super-car or hyper-car.

What can be said is that it is entirely possible for there to be no noticeable improvement over the OEM lines with some stainless steel braided brake lines, or any other aftermarket brake hose/line. The most typical reinforcement layer used for OEM brake hose is PVA. Rayon is the common reinforcement layer upgrade used in brake hose. Rayon does have a slightly better resistance to expansion, but is significantly more thermally stable in respect to that resistance.

The SAE J1401 and GMW3056 specifications require a double-layer of reinforcement. It looks like GM decided to use Rayon for both layers in the front brake lines for the SS 1LE (and likely ZL1 and ZL1 1LE). GM looks to have used Rayon for the first layer (inner) and PVA for the second layer (outer) for the rear lines (to which I assume they did for the regular SS front lines). Rayon is typically a dark brown/red color in fiber reinforcements and PVA typically looks white. Being a "track capable" car, SS and up, it makes sense for, at least, the first/inner layer to be Rayon. Side note - last time I looked under the current Porsche GT3 car, the front brake lines were carbon fiber-reinforced, while the rear lines were factory (with a coil of steel wire wound around it for protect).

The EPDM and rubbers used are only there for fluid transfer and permeability. The fiber layers are what really dictates pressure capability and control of volumetric expansion. Some stainless steel brake lines aren't really anything over typical OEM rubber lines, where they really just have a braided stainless steel outer layer as a "bling" factor (que in the "you get what you pay for").
Professional motorsports (i.e. GT4 with the Camaro GT4.R) and some aftermarket offerings, use carbon fiber reinforced brake lines, which are for sure an upgrade over the factory brake hose.

http://www.harcoonline.com/Products
http://www.sunsongusa.com/
https://global.ihs.com/doc_detail.cf...s_key=00343152
https://www.china-certification.com/...97-2010-en.pdf
https://www.kgk-rubberpoint.de/en/25...reinforcement/
https://www.siliconeintakes.com/brai...es-p-1202.html
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NeJ-SXoIE-...ff_Drawing.jpg
https://www.brakehoses.org/brake-hos...rake-hose.html

[Scargoes]

Good info, thank you for doing this.

[h018871]

Appreciate you taking the time to do this. Good information

[Junkyardspecial]

For those interested, here are Carbon fiber brake lines that my friend had made for the ZLE ZL1 and SS 1LE, here. I can attest for them, much better braking feel especially in threshold braking.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561322

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Junkyardspecial

For those interested, here are Carbon fiber brake lines that my friend had made for the ZLE ZL1 and SS 1LE, here. I can attest for them, much better braking feel especially in threshold braking.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561322

Yup, I saw those and they look awesome! I'd love to get those in the near future!

Something I want to add:
I was reading some claims by some stainless steel braided brake line sets, talking about OEM rubber lines being susceptible to cracking and tearing from road debris and OEM rubber brake lines being rated for low pressures, like 1,200psi. Those notions are false for any OEM brake line in the recent 20+ years. Any OEM will have to have FMVSSS/DOT, SAE J1401 and OEM spec compliance. In that, they will undergo specific component durability tests, vehicle durability tests and, as far as pressure, the FMVSS/DOT requires at least 7,000psi/5,000psi (small/large hose ID) minimum burst pressure capability. To give comparison, stainless steel braided lines typically claim burst pressure ratings from 6,000-12,000psi and the carbon fiber lines mentioned are rated at 16,900psi.

Here are pictures of the Porsche 911 RSR GT3 car brake lines (front/rear):

[Junkyardspecial]

Are those OEM gt3 RS lines?

To me knowing the build quality of the CF lines were enough to get them, burst pressures will most likely never be met, but is definitely nice insurance.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Junkyardspecial

Are those OEM gt3 RS lines?

To me knowing the build quality of the CF lines were enough to get them, burst pressures will most likely never be met, but is definitely nice insurance.

The rear are. I think the car may be a 911 Cup car, not the RSR. I forget.

[JeffFox]

Thanks for the great post Mountain.

[Mountain]

You're welcome, all. I wanted to make this subject clear for people. These Camaros are great cars for the track, needing a lot less than other cars in upgrades, which makes understanding what actually does need/is a good upgrade difficult to know.

Overall, a brake line upgrade on the SS 1LE, ZL1 and ZL1 1LE is not a need, but is something that can provide an improvement [in brake feel], but only if the right line is chosen as a replacement,

[NickyRacerBoy]

Gotta love threads like this one!

[carguy55]

Ken at KNS Brakes assures me these are Stainless Steel Brake lines for the SS 1LE. May be another option. The pictures shown may not be correct

https://knsbrakes.com/c/car-items/49...el+Brake+Lines

[SWZL11LE]

Great info and pictures. Happy that someone took their time to do this to educate some people who have been mislead with bad information and have had misconceptions about the stock brake lines.

[thescreensavers]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I finally got in the front SS 1LE brake line to dissect.

If you're not interested in the details, here are the key points:
-There is no steel reinforcement in the OEM brake lines.
-The front brake lines on the SS 1LE (and likely ZL1 and ZL1 1LE) look to have more reinforcement than the rear lines.
-Some stainless steel braided brake lines will likely not provide a noticeable improvement over the OEM brake lines (mostly the front).

Thanks for putting that together mountain

I have spoken with Goodridge early on and is what actually got them to make a SS1LE set as they are different from an SS/ZL1/ZLE

I found a statement from them on a blog and did some calculations on it.

Goodridge found that standard OE-type rubber brake hose expanded by 0.136 cc/ft at 1,000 psi, 0.150 cc/ft at 1,500 psi, and 0.290 cc/ft at 2,900 psi, whereas the company's PTFE braided stainless hoses expanded by only 0.0002932 cc/ft at 4,000 psi.

Their stainless lines virtually have no expansion at our braking pressures. I have measured front and rear caliper pressures while on jack stands(engine running) max I got was 1200 PSI front and 800PSI Rear.

Based on goodridge's data and some "quick" calculations I was coming up a combined (F&R) pedal deflection of about .200" on "Standard OE type rubber".

It would appear we have something much better than the "standard OE rubber" so our actual deflection number would be smaller.


I have not yet put the goodridge front lines on my car so I cannot comment on pedal differences.