05-26-2020, 11:40 AM | #1 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS M6 Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Georgia
Posts: 7
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Stage 1,2, or 3 Cam/heads
My 17 SS M6 Camaro currently has a Rotofab, TSP 1 7/8" headers with no cats, Pray performance ported IM/TB, and running E85. I am looking at taking the next step and doing heads/cam but i would like to understand the pros and cons of going with the Stage 1,2, or 3 setup. I love the way the stage 3 sounds but i do daily my car and have a 32 mile commute (95% interstate) each way to work. Any advice on which route to go? I am also looking at going with the ported MSD with this upgrade as well.
Thanks! |
05-26-2020, 12:10 PM | #2 |
Drives: SS-6-SPD Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,364
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I’m running “stage 2” Texas speed cam and ported heads. It’s amazing, drivability is stock-ISH. It’s not crazy in traffic . Also ported. MSD does help up top.
I believe stage 3.. is if you’re not going to daily the car. I sat in stage 3 cam Car (unknown specs) but car was a pin in traffic. |
05-26-2020, 02:07 PM | #3 |
Probably tired right now
Drives: 1Lap1LE | EV6 FE | 18 F150 Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: At the office (CLT, NC)
Posts: 1,133
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in my experience with 5 different "big cam" vehicles.... Drivability is largely based on your TUNER and their ability, not the cam itself.
Anything anyone will sell you OTS these days will drive fine with a good tuner. Any custom spec'd cam will drive likely even better as it will be spec'd for your goals (one of which will likely be drivability with proper tuning) But if the tune sucks, the driving will suck. FWIW - my 1LE had a cam that was aggressive enough to need valve reliefs cut in the pistons... First tuner didn't have enough experience with GENV stuff (specific the more advanced TQ management) and the car drove... okayy. I had a more experienced shop re-tune it and not only did it pick up about 20whp, but it then drove like stock with a lumpy idle. Not exaggerating either, I could putter around a parking lot letting it idle in first with pretty much no issue. All in the tune man.
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'17 SS 1LE - 1LAP 1LE (Now with more 427!) '18 F150 Platinum Powerstroke diesel '22 Kia EV6 First Edition '18 RS3 (1 of 2) Cumulus Blue '24 911 T (ordered) Formers... '19 RS5 Sportback Sonoma Green | '07 Cayman S 6MT | '16 Audi S3 Prestige Viper Green (APR Stage 3+) | '19 Mustang Shelby GT350R | '17 SS 1LE MBM 575whp all-motor |
05-26-2020, 10:29 PM | #4 |
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Drives: 2012 2SS CAMARO 45th Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Charles, IL
Posts: 18,663
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Agreed, you can make a pretty aggressive cam drive nice with the right tuner. We've done some bigger builds with zero drivability issues. We have some cams that can really chop, make solid power and drive like stock.
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05-27-2020, 09:35 AM | #5 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,799
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Driveability would be the least of my concerns. DI engines with correct tuning can drive well with fairly large cams. What I would be concerned about is valve-train longevity. If this is your daily and will see lots of mileage, I would do a cam that is sub .600 lift and has mild lobes so it doesn't require heavy valve springs which will beat the snot out of the lifters. Don't expect a TSP stage 3 setup with LS7 lifters to make it much more then 10-12k miles before needing checked and likely replacing springs by 20k. I wouldn't even use LS7 lifters in this application but that is another story.
Cam motion is who I would contact to spec out a daily driver cam.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
05-27-2020, 10:31 AM | #6 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,799
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It depends on the tuner. So unless you can verify who did the tuning then it's a moot point.
That being said Cam overlap plays a huge factor in how well a cam behaves. The more overlap, the more un-burnt fuel makes it's way out the exhaust valves. On port injected LS engines I always thought it was best to keep overlap under 8 degrees for good street manners. I found 5 degrees to be on the high end of what i would consider for a true daily driver grind. On DI I would keep overlap under 12 degrees and I personally wouldn't go more then 6-8 degrees if it's a daily. DI doesn't suffer from the same reversion issue since the fuel is sprayed directly into the combustion chamber in a much narrower window. So less un-burnt fuel makes it's way out the exhaust causing false lean conditions with the o2 sensors. The caveat with DI is understanding how to tune the Virtual Torque tables which will need work to get a cam car to behave. So that is where many tuners that don't understand Gen 5 ECU's will struggle.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA Last edited by KingLT1; 05-27-2020 at 11:04 AM. |
05-27-2020, 11:44 AM | #7 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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It is interesting to note that the Hot Cam uses the stock valve springs, so IMO it should be near stock dependability or even better given LS7 lifters. I don't remember off hand but it was recommended 6600 limit, so the engine needs to be shifted just a little past peak HP, no big deal to keep the longevity of the build. Love GM engineers.
https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...s/lt/lt376-535 Chevy does mid 10s with their hot cam and heads (note the 128 MPH is indication of HP,light car though). https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...maro/drag-race As an aside, GM originally listed the Hot Cam at 112 LSA, it is really the same as the LT1 at 116.5. IF I KNEW THIS, I would have just gone with a Hot Cam even on my supercharge build (yes give up on the fuel lobe). To my mind is not practical to put a fast ramp high lift cam in any street car and doubly so to put on in a FI car that does not need any additional breathing. That's how much I hate fast lift cams on the street.
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 05-27-2020 at 12:08 PM. |
05-27-2020, 12:34 PM | #8 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS M6 Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Georgia
Posts: 7
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Thanks for the input guys! I had not heard of the valve-train wear concern before. I do put about 15k miles a year on the car so if that is true it could be an issue.
If i can do a ported 95mm TB, ported MSD, ported heads, and a Stage 2 cam from Pray or TSP and get around 570whp on E85 then i would be happy with that. I would love to get the sound of a stage 3 but not with the sacrifice of reliability. |
05-27-2020, 12:38 PM | #9 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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reliability is based on lift and ramp profile not the stage. A stage 1 .640 lift cam is going to have the same reliability issues (other than peak RPM) as a stage 3 cam with .640 lift. It is an un-mutable fact that fast lift cams give big HP gains with less compromise in idle. It is an un-mutable fact that high lift fast ramp cams will fail faster than stock lift cams, GM is already pushing it at .570 lift for the street and GM just does not say yeah it should work, they have to provide a warranty.... everybody else can say it should work / last, till it comes to a warranty. The LS7 had a .593" and even that had "some" guide wear and rocker issues. FYI the LS7 has 100 lbs seat and 310 open with a fuel cut at 7100 RPM. I'm only saying this is what GM says is doable and provide a warranty.
I lived through the LS1 valvetrain failure wars. LIVED through it. I knew I should not have done it again. Well I'm done, I'll let all the other people that know everything build these street engines.... The ONLY thing I learned over the last 22 years was sub .600 lift and gentle profiles "maybe" can last.
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 05-27-2020 at 12:53 PM. |
10-12-2020, 01:20 PM | #10 |
Did you go with a cam yet? I’m trying to decide what one I’d like as well between a stage 2 or 3 for a daily driving & the occasional road course.
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2020 ZLE Roto-Fab dry
2018 Camaro 2SS 1LE - 2" TSP catless headers, Pray Ported stock IM/TB, Rotofab dry, DSX FF kit, dyno tuned by Pray. SOLD |
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10-12-2020, 02:26 PM | #11 | |
Drives: E92 BMW M3 Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,496
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I loved my cammed 1LE, drove close to stock with a custom grind stage 2 cam. I will cam my next car, likely a 2022/2023 1LE. This time I will go even less aggressive, just want something with a nice rough idle but no serious chop, just got old as it was my only car.
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SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned |
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10-12-2020, 02:52 PM | #12 |
Drives: Camaro Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: UT
Posts: 50
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I just pilled the trigger and a GPI SS1 cam and ported head package. I've been really happy working with them. I'm not trying to break records so I didn't want to go aggressive or change the drivability to much, plus I plan on going FI in the future.
I'm looking forward to doing the install and seeing how it turns out.
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2017 Chevy Camaro Hyper Blue 2SS A8 GPI Ported Heads, GPI SS1 CAM, Rotofab CAI, Katech Ported TB, GPI Ported IM, TSP 1.78 Long Tube Headers, Elite Engineering E2 Catch Can, Chevrolet Performance Strut Tower Brace, Factory Reproduction Style 28 Wheels, Michelin PS4S
2017 Chevy Camaro Krypton Green ZL1 Rotofab CAI, Borla Cat-Back, Michelin PS4S |
10-13-2020, 07:21 AM | #13 | ||
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2020 ZLE Roto-Fab dry
2018 Camaro 2SS 1LE - 2" TSP catless headers, Pray Ported stock IM/TB, Rotofab dry, DSX FF kit, dyno tuned by Pray. SOLD |
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10-13-2020, 10:05 PM | #14 | |
Drives: Chevy Camaro 2017 Join Date: May 2019
Location: Houston
Posts: 47
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cam, heads, pray |
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