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Old 02-24-2020, 05:35 PM   #1
MackSteelPrivateEye

 
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The Tremec 6060 stackup

Just wondering how our Tremec 6060 stacks up against a Muncie 4 spd Rock Crusher trans. Can you beat it a slam it and have it keep on ticking? The Muncie has a rep of taking a real beating and keep on going. Who's familiar with the comparison or is there a comparison?
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:08 PM   #2
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There's no real comparison. Even the T56 is better. ...except for weight of course. The M22 took a beating, but from cars with half our horsepower putting even less down through the tires. You know what they say about meeting your heroes...


Edit* I did a lot of research on the subject when I was picking a transmission for my Iroc. Wasn't considering an M22 but it came up quite a bit during research. Ended up with a Tremec TKO. There's countless pieces of info worth dissecting, but just like the infamous Borg Warner T5's, the smaller cases would flex. The low grind angle of the gears (hence the rock crusher noise) help redirect flexing forces, as well as different metallurgy in the gears compared to the M20 and 21 it helped, but they still would fail. There's a great article I read about how modern computer R&D allows for testing for all the flexing forces a transmission experiences. They talk about how ALL the old school transmission would flex and ultimately fail. Nowadays you plug in a few parameters and poof - bomb proof case specs courtesy of less computing power than you have in your watch. Modern tech is truly amazing. Modern transmissions fail because of cheap production parts used to keep costs down, but the inherent designs are pretty rock solid.

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Old 02-24-2020, 06:18 PM   #3
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Back in the day, the Ford toploader had the reputation as the toughest 4 speed box. You have to give it to Ford where driveline components are concerned. The toploader and 9 inch diff were the toughest of the tough. As far as autos go, the C6 wasn't bad, but it was no th400.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye View Post
Just wondering how our Tremec 6060 stacks up against a Muncie 4 spd Rock Crusher trans. Can you beat it a slam it and have it keep on ticking? The Muncie has a rep of taking a real beating and keep on going. Who's familiar with the comparison or is there a comparison?
The M22 was a great transmission in its day but by today’s standards it’s a toy. The gears were not precision engineered by any means compared to the modern Tremec, so while you could slam it hard there was a mile of play in the gear shift. Also our Tremecs are built to handle about 560-600 hp and the same ft/lbs torque. That would destroy a Muncie. Even the beefiest SS396 or 454s in the day were actually only putting out about 360 hp in SAE Net measurement. Those 400+ hp ratings used in the day really were SAE gross. They say those engines were underrated but they weren’t measuring in modern SAE net. The 6th gen Camaro 6.2 LT1 is rated at 455 hp NET - that’s real horsepower.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:27 PM   #5
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The Mopar 833 was a heck of a strong trans and easy to rebuild the only problem was it was a truck trans that shifted like a truck trans. The Muncie is a geat easy to shift trans, with proper upgrades it can take say 500 ft - lbs 600+ for quite a long time.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/tra...-transmissions
https://www.chevydiy.com/how-to-buil...transmissions/

So IMO, the Muncie is just a great trans to actually drive...
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Petrol Head View Post
The M22 was a great transmission in its day but by today’s standards it’s a toy. The gears were not precision engineered by any means compared to the modern Tremec, so while you could slam it hard there was a mile of play in the gear shift. Also our Tremecs are built to handle about 560-600 hp and the same ft/lbs torque. That would destroy a Muncie. Even the beefiest SS396 or 454s in the day were actually only putting out about 360 hp in SAE Net measurement. Those 400+ hp ratings used in the day really were SAE gross. They say those engines were underrated but they weren’t measuring in modern SAE net. The 6th gen Camaro 6.2 LT1 is rated at 455 hp NET - that’s real horsepower.
This is true and not true, most guys put headers on day one and then you are dealing with 450+ HP engines with 500 ft -lbs and it is torque that breaks transmissions. Don't get me wrong I love my M6, especially with my Hurst shifter (best mod ever). But to drive a M22 behind a 396 was pure lust, that trans was butter. I also own a Integra Type R , know to be the best trans / engine combo kown to man, the M22 behind a LT1 or 396 is a close second..with good shifter of course.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:57 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
This is true and not true, most guys put headers on day one and then you are dealing with 450+ HP engines with 500 ft -lbs and it is torque that breaks transmissions. Don't get me wrong I love my M6, especially with my Hurst shifter (best mod ever). But to drive a M22 behind a 396 was pure lust, that trans was butter. I also own a Integra Type R , know to be the best trans / engine combo kown to man, the M22 behind a LT1 or 396 is a close second..with good shifter of course.
The 375 horse L78 was really closer to 325 horse by today’s SAE net version 2.0 rating calc. Remember, those engines were rated in SAE gross until 1974, then SAE net version 1.0 from 1974-2003. In ‘04 the SAE revised their rating system again. The 455 horse in modern Camaros is a realistic number. Those old muscle cars felt fast but realistically they were slower than a modern V6 Camaro.

That 450 hp header mod must be with unicorn dust.

If you connect an old M22 to a modern LT1 the LT1 would shred it to pieces.
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:29 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Petrol Head View Post
The 375 horse L78 was really closer to 325 horse by today’s SAE net version 2.0 rating calc. Remember, those engines were rated in SAE gross until 1974, then SAE net version 1.0 from 1974-2003. In ‘04 the SAE revised their rating system again. The 455 horse in modern Camaros is a realistic number. Those old muscle cars felt fast but realistically they were slower than a modern V6 Camaro.

That 450 hp header mod must be with unicorn dust.

If you connect an old M22 to a modern LT1 the LT1 would shred it to pieces.
There are many dyno out with the numbers I listed and long tubes, the gen v LT1 BHP is found here: 518 HP.

Here is a 396 dyno at 458 HP with headers (which I said at the get go) And yes 454, 455, 400 Ram Air, 427 could either dyno at the 450 HP with LT or 500 ft-lbs (which is what breaks the trans).

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/chev...actory-rating/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/518-...traight-crate/

I don't know why you are going with SAE net, I clearly stated headers.

Let's be clear tens of thousands of GM BB engines with headers were raced for decades with Muncie transmissions. Did they fail, yes, can you get new cases, shafts syncros etc to have a Muncie live a long life at say 500 HP... probably so. What is the rating of the TR6060 installed in the LT1 Camaro 560 ft - lbs. Stronger than a Muncie out of the box, and there is not much that separates the TR6060 from a T56 mag at 700 ft-lbs. The Muncie's claim to fame is not strength anyway, as I've stated it was the ability to shift. The aluminum Muncie was also light.

All you ever wanted to know:
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/so-yo...mis-1823051016
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Old 02-25-2020, 01:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
This is true and not true, most guys put headers on day one and then you are dealing with 450+ HP engines with 500 ft -lbs and it is torque that breaks transmissions. Don't get me wrong I love my M6, especially with my Hurst shifter (best mod ever). But to drive a M22 behind a 396 was pure lust, that trans was butter. I also own a Integra Type R , know to be the best trans / engine combo kown to man, the M22 behind a LT1 or 396 is a close second..with good shifter of course.
He lost me with the Integra comment.
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Old 02-25-2020, 01:57 PM   #10
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The 375 horse L78 was really closer to 325 horse by today’s SAE net version 2.0 rating calc. Remember, those engines were rated in SAE gross until 1974, then SAE net version 1.0 from 1974-2003. In ‘04 the SAE revised their rating system again. The 455 horse in modern Camaros is a realistic number. Those old muscle cars felt fast but realistically they were slower than a modern V6 Camaro.

That 450 hp header mod must be with unicorn dust.

If you connect an old M22 to a modern LT1 the LT1 would shred it to pieces.
My 69 383 RoadRunner had more lowdown grunt that my old V6 11 Camaro. But my Camaro was geared lower and had more top end than my RR. I' m pretty sure my 383 was more powerful than my V6 Camaro but my Camaro had 3 more gears than my RR too. Coming out the Hole I think my RR would win but after 65 or so the camaro would walk it. But if that RR had an equivalent modern 6 speed close ratio manual trans, I'm pretty sure the RR would lay waist at least to 100mph.
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:16 PM   #11
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He lost me with the Integra comment.
Integra Type R's lose a LOT of people.




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My 69 383 RoadRunner had more lowdown grunt that my old V6 11 Camaro. But my Camaro was geared lower and had more top end than my RR. I' m pretty sure my 383 was more powerful than my V6 Camaro but my Camaro had 3 more gears than my RR too. Coming out the Hole I think my RR would win but after 65 or so the camaro would walk it. But if that RR had an equivalent modern 6 speed close ratio manual trans, I'm pretty sure the RR would lay waist at least to 100mph.

In my experience, a modern transmission helps, but doesn't change the nature of an engine, whether it be new or old.
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Old 02-25-2020, 02:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrol Head View Post
The 375 horse L78 was really closer to 325 horse by today’s SAE net version 2.0 rating calc. Remember, those engines were rated in SAE gross until 1974, then SAE net version 1.0 from 1974-2003. In ‘04 the SAE revised their rating system again. The 455 horse in modern Camaros is a realistic number. Those old muscle cars felt fast but realistically they were slower than a modern V6 Camaro.

That 450 hp header mod must be with unicorn dust.

If you connect an old M22 to a modern LT1 the LT1 would shred it to pieces.
I can assure that you that a modern LT1 would not immediately destroy a M22, you may break it eventually, but you certainly wouldn’t shell it the first time you dumped the clutch. In fact, you would have a hard time hurting it on street tires. A toploader would likely live forever behind an LT1.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:04 PM   #13
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Integra Type R's lose a LOT of people.

In my experience, a modern transmission helps, but doesn't change the nature of an engine, whether it be new or old.
Right, 195 HP, 140 or so lbs of torque at about 2400 lbs curb weight. 1/4 mile at 14.7 and a top speed of 125 mph.

It was a beast (not). My 1993 RX-7 ran circles around Integra Rs.
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Old 02-25-2020, 08:30 PM   #14
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He lost me with the Integra comment.
If you have never owned driven and raced an Integra Type R, then you have missed out on something special. My sleeved 2.1 liter NA engine puts out 275 HP at 2400 lbs... you can work the math out yourself I have also built turbo B engines at 450 HP and 2400 lbs...
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