[gshumaker]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

I think Jason in C6Z > Jason in a C5Z. He was beaten by a C6Z at ProSolo.

And he certainly will get faster.

Matt, Jason Frank wasn't even at the Pro Finale. So, I guess he lost by not competing. In the Championship, Jason beat Mark Daddio, who is a legend of SCCA Solo at this point. He has more championships than you have fingers.

Back in the Super Stock days, I drove both cars on Hoosiers. I drove my C5Z for several years off and on and also drove other folks' c6z's on occasion. I can tell you that on most courses, the C5Z is at least the equal of the C6Z. The C5Z is narrower, slightly lighter, and has better gearing for autocross. The C6Z's 500 horsepower isn't generally helpful because of it's much taller gearing. It does however have wider rear wheels which help it a little.

No matter what, that was a heck of drive by Jason. He has been a FWD car for as long as I can remember. To switch over to the AS Corvette and win a championship in a single season...now that's just...impressive.

[apexit53]

Yep and now his AS C5Z is for sale!!

not sure if anyone else saw that lol.

[MatthewAMEL]

Originally Posted by gshumaker

Matt, Jason Frank wasn't even at the Pro Finale. So, I guess he lost by not competing. In the Championship, Jason beat Mark Daddio, who is a legend of SCCA Solo at this point. He has more championships than you have fingers.

Back in the Super Stock days, I drove both cars on Hoosiers. I drove my C5Z for several years off and on and also drove other folks' c6z's on occasion. I can tell you that on most courses, the C5Z is at least the equal of the C6Z. The C5Z is narrower, slightly lighter, and has better gearing for autocross. The C6Z's 500 horsepower isn't generally helpful because of it's much taller gearing. It does however have wider rear wheels which help it a little.

No matter what, that was a heck of drive by Jason. He has been a FWD car for as long as I can remember. To switch over to the AS Corvette and win a championship in a single season...now that's just...impressive.

Oops. Sorry, thought we were talking about Ruggles and his C5Z. My bad.

[MatthewAMEL]

Originally Posted by apexit53

Yep and now his AS C5Z is for sale!!

not sure if anyone else saw that lol.

Yup. Yours for only $30k.

[Z3papa]

Unless the classes are running at the same time on the same courses, comparing times at Nat'ls is a total crap shoot. OPR including dirt line of classes just prior to running, variation of temps, etc all effect how a class runs relative to other classes. Really, in order to get valid data, you need a few top notch drivers testing top prep cars. Keep in mind, just for point of comparison, Jason's class winning car was rolling on DA Penskes. How many of the 1LE's discussed in this thread prepping to that level?

[JRL1LE]

A multi time National Champ will be driving my car next week to provide more data.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by JRL1LE

A multi time National Champ will be driving my car next week to provide more data.

Now we are talking!!!

[Egon]

I am sure I am not going to make any friends with this, but here goes. There are three things that you are going to have to prove to the SCCA SEB to get a car moved.

1. That the car does not belong in its current class
2. That the car does belong in another class
3. That there are no other alternatives

I still don't think that the case has yet been made that the car does not belong in AS. It is true, that we have one car at Nationals that did not perform well. Does anyone know what the car's level of prep was? If it was bone stock with just an alignment and class ready tires you still have no case since I can guarantee that all of the Vettes were prepped to the max. Even if the reason is that the parts are not yet available for the car, where will it perform when they are? They aren't going to move a car only to have to move it back once someone finally makes the proper parts to let it perform to its potential. What was the skill level of the drivers? I don't know the skill level of Matt Lucas or Michael Cobb even though he is the new SCCA President it doesn't necessarily mean he is a competitive driver. If someone can speak to these gentlemen's skill level please speak up I would like to know. And finally we do not have a big enough sample size. One car at Nationals is not enough to prove a case for a move. What if the car was having technical issues that day, or the course just didn't favor it, or the drivers strengths? These are all questions that the SEB is going to ask/be asked when they make a decision to move a car.

Once it is decided that a car does not belong in one class now we have to decide if it belongs in another. If the 1LE doesn't belong in AS it doesn't automatically mean it belongs in BS. BS is in pretty good shape right now with multiple competitive vehicles. This would be considered a "healthy" class. What kind of disruption if any will be caused by moving it to this class? Is the SEB now going to get tons of letters from BS competitors that the 1LE doesn't belong there after someone wins an event with one? (that absolutely will happen to) They also have to consider how it will affect both Nationals level competition as well as regional/local. In our region if the 1LE were to be moved to B-Street the driver of the 1LE here would be 2-4 seconds faster than the fastest B-Street competitor and he would still be in the trophies for A-Street. (and this is his first year of autocross with no changes to the car but a mild autocross alignment)

Finally you also have to show that there is no other alternative for the vehicle in question. Your case was clearly not helped by the fact that a CAM-C prepped 1LE won the class by half a second this year. If the 1LE isn't competitive in AS, but has a nice competitive advantage in CAM the SEB is just going to tell you to go to CAM with the car.

Even if you make a convincing case that the 1LE doesn't belong in AS, and I don't think that case has been made by any stretch, the potential disruption to BS and the ability to run competitively in CAM will cause the SEB to do nothing. The sad fact is that some cars are not going to be competitive in every class. We have 9 street classes (A-H and Super Street) and hundreds of models over multiple years that have to be assigned to those 9 classes. It is completely impossible to make every car competitive in its respective class unless we want to have 30+ street classes, and figuring out PAX for all 30+ of them would be a nightmare too. No one wants that because at the local level everyone will be running by themselves and many classes will have no competitors in them at all.

If you are a 6th Gen 1LE owner and are still convinced that the car should be moved then here is what you need to do. Find a Nationals level driver in your region that would be willing to co drive and help you develop the car over a full season. A Nationals level driver does not mean someone that just went to Nationals either, they should have trophied recently or have a Jacket. You also want someone with experience in a similar car, probably someone from AS, FS or CAM. Then foot the bill for all of the mods necessary to prep the car. Cat-back exhaust, brake pads, wheels/tires, sway bar, shocks (if even possible) and multiple alignments during testing will be necessary. Then run the car with your co driver at Champ Tours and Nationals and see where it places. If enough of you do this and the car is still mid pack then you have a case that it doesn't belong in AS. You still haven't proved it should be in BS though. Or you might surprise yourself at how competitive it is when fully prepped with a good driver, that's where my money is.

[Chris V]

Originally Posted by Egon

I am sure I am not going to make any friends with this, but here goes. There are three things that you are going to have to prove to the SCCA SEB to get a car moved.

1. That the car does not belong in its current class
2. That the car does belong in another class
3. That there are no other alternatives

I still don't think that the case has yet been made that the car does not belong in AS. It is true, that we have one car at Nationals that did not perform well. Does anyone know what the car's level of prep was? If it was bone stock with just an alignment and class ready tires you still have no case since I can guarantee that all of the Vettes were prepped to the max. Even if the reason is that the parts are not yet available for the car, where will it perform when they are? They aren't going to move a car only to have to move it back once someone finally makes the proper parts to let it perform to its potential. What was the skill level of the drivers? I don't know the skill level of Matt Lucas or Michael Cobb even though he is the new SCCA President it doesn't necessarily mean he is a competitive driver. If someone can speak to these gentlemen's skill level please speak up I would like to know. And finally we do not have a big enough sample size. One car at Nationals is not enough to prove a case for a move. What if the car was having technical issues that day, or the course just didn't favor it, or the drivers strengths? These are all questions that the SEB is going to ask/be asked when they make a decision to move a car.

Once it is decided that a car does not belong in one class now we have to decide if it belongs in another. If the 1LE doesn't belong in AS it doesn't automatically mean it belongs in BS. BS is in pretty good shape right now with multiple competitive vehicles. This would be considered a "healthy" class. What kind of disruption if any will be caused by moving it to this class? Is the SEB now going to get tons of letters from BS competitors that the 1LE doesn't belong there after someone wins an event with one? (that absolutely will happen to) They also have to consider how it will affect both Nationals level competition as well as regional/local. In our region if the 1LE were to be moved to B-Street the driver of the 1LE here would be 2-4 seconds faster than the fastest B-Street competitor and he would still be in the trophies for A-Street. (and this is his first year of autocross with no changes to the car but a mild autocross alignment)

Finally you also have to show that there is no other alternative for the vehicle in question. Your case was clearly not helped by the fact that a CAM-C prepped 1LE won the class by half a second this year. If the 1LE isn't competitive in AS, but has a nice competitive advantage in CAM the SEB is just going to tell you to go to CAM with the car.

Even if you make a convincing case that the 1LE doesn't belong in AS, and I don't think that case has been made by any stretch, the potential disruption to BS and the ability to run competitively in CAM will cause the SEB to do nothing. The sad fact is that some cars are not going to be competitive in every class. We have 9 street classes (A-H and Super Street) and hundreds of models over multiple years that have to be assigned to those 9 classes. It is completely impossible to make every car competitive in its respective class unless we want to have 30+ street classes, and figuring out PAX for all 30+ of them would be a nightmare too. No one wants that because at the local level everyone will be running by themselves and many classes will have no competitors in them at all.

If you are a 6th Gen 1LE owner and are still convinced that the car should be moved then here is what you need to do. Find a Nationals level driver in your region that would be willing to co drive and help you develop the car over a full season. A Nationals level driver does not mean someone that just went to Nationals either, they should have trophied recently or have a Jacket. You also want someone with experience in a similar car, probably someone from AS, FS or CAM. Then foot the bill for all of the mods necessary to prep the car. Cat-back exhaust, brake pads, wheels/tires, sway bar, shocks (if even possible) and multiple alignments during testing will be necessary. Then run the car with your co driver at Champ Tours and Nationals and see where it places. If enough of you do this and the car is still mid pack then you have a case that it doesn't belong in AS. You still haven't proved it should be in BS though. Or you might surprise yourself at how competitive it is when fully prepped with a good driver, that's where my money is.

There's a lot of truth here, but the 1LE isn't an AS car. There's nothing about it that puts it on par with a C6 Z06 which has more power, less weight, a lower center of gravity, and more tire/lb.

Dave Corsaro ran in AS in his 5th gen Z28. He won FS a few years ago in his 5th gen 1LE. He finished 29th of 55. The 5th Z isn't the 6th 1LE, but very comparable. He's still on stock Z28 DSSVs, but I wouldn't call that under prepped. He was on 18's too.

As for whether or not it fits in BS is another question - it's more powerful with more tire than the base C5. It's a totally different animal than the Cayman and the boost buggies.

I'm never going to run in street, so I'm not personally invested in where it gets classed, but AS is a "bury the car" classification because it's perceived as harder to get and limited edition. It's treated like the S2K CR, rather than the 5th gen 1LE.

[JRL1LE]

Originally Posted by Egon

I am sure I am not going to make any friends with this, but here goes. There are three things that you are going to have to prove to the SCCA SEB to get a car moved.

1. That the car does not belong in its current class
2. That the car does belong in another class
3. That there are no other alternatives

I still don't think that the case has yet been made that the car does not belong in AS. It is true, that we have one car at Nationals that did not perform well. Does anyone know what the car's level of prep was? If it was bone stock with just an alignment and class ready tires you still have no case since I can guarantee that all of the Vettes were prepped to the max. Even if the reason is that the parts are not yet available for the car, where will it perform when they are? They aren't going to move a car only to have to move it back once someone finally makes the proper parts to let it perform to its potential. What was the skill level of the drivers? I don't know the skill level of Matt Lucas or Michael Cobb even though he is the new SCCA President it doesn't necessarily mean he is a competitive driver. If someone can speak to these gentlemen's skill level please speak up I would like to know. And finally we do not have a big enough sample size. One car at Nationals is not enough to prove a case for a move. What if the car was having technical issues that day, or the course just didn't favor it, or the drivers strengths? These are all questions that the SEB is going to ask/be asked when they make a decision to move a car.

Once it is decided that a car does not belong in one class now we have to decide if it belongs in another. If the 1LE doesn't belong in AS it doesn't automatically mean it belongs in BS. BS is in pretty good shape right now with multiple competitive vehicles. This would be considered a "healthy" class. What kind of disruption if any will be caused by moving it to this class? Is the SEB now going to get tons of letters from BS competitors that the 1LE doesn't belong there after someone wins an event with one? (that absolutely will happen to) They also have to consider how it will affect both Nationals level competition as well as regional/local. In our region if the 1LE were to be moved to B-Street the driver of the 1LE here would be 2-4 seconds faster than the fastest B-Street competitor and he would still be in the trophies for A-Street. (and this is his first year of autocross with no changes to the car but a mild autocross alignment)

Finally you also have to show that there is no other alternative for the vehicle in question. Your case was clearly not helped by the fact that a CAM-C prepped 1LE won the class by half a second this year. If the 1LE isn't competitive in AS, but has a nice competitive advantage in CAM the SEB is just going to tell you to go to CAM with the car.

Even if you make a convincing case that the 1LE doesn't belong in AS, and I don't think that case has been made by any stretch, the potential disruption to BS and the ability to run competitively in CAM will cause the SEB to do nothing. The sad fact is that some cars are not going to be competitive in every class. We have 9 street classes (A-H and Super Street) and hundreds of models over multiple years that have to be assigned to those 9 classes. It is completely impossible to make every car competitive in its respective class unless we want to have 30+ street classes, and figuring out PAX for all 30+ of them would be a nightmare too. No one wants that because at the local level everyone will be running by themselves and many classes will have no competitors in them at all.

If you are a 6th Gen 1LE owner and are still convinced that the car should be moved then here is what you need to do. Find a Nationals level driver in your region that would be willing to co drive and help you develop the car over a full season. A Nationals level driver does not mean someone that just went to Nationals either, they should have trophied recently or have a Jacket. You also want someone with experience in a similar car, probably someone from AS, FS or CAM. Then foot the bill for all of the mods necessary to prep the car. Cat-back exhaust, brake pads, wheels/tires, sway bar, shocks (if even possible) and multiple alignments during testing will be necessary. Then run the car with your co driver at Champ Tours and Nationals and see where it places. If enough of you do this and the car is still mid pack then you have a case that it doesn't belong in AS. You still haven't proved it should be in BS though. Or you might surprise yourself at how competitive it is when fully prepped with a good driver, that's where my money is.

As stated in earlier posts, I am not using just National's results, I included those because it was Nationals and it was recent. I have autoxed for 20 years, not a newbie looking for a class break. I included my own data/experience/results from autoxing this car, my C5Z06 and 2015 SS 1LE in street classes in my letter.
And as stated , next week a multi time national champion is driving this car to provide more data for analysis.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Egon

Once it is decided that a car does not belong in one class now we have to decide if it belongs in another. If the 1LE doesn't belong in AS it doesn't automatically mean it belongs in BS. BS is in pretty good shape right now with multiple competitive vehicles. This would be considered a "healthy" class. What kind of disruption if any will be caused by moving it to this class? Is the SEB now going to get tons of letters from BS competitors that the 1LE doesn't belong there after someone wins an event with one? (that absolutely will happen to) They also have to consider how it will affect both Nationals level competition as well as regional/local. In our region if the 1LE were to be moved to B-Street the driver of the 1LE here would be 2-4 seconds faster than the fastest B-Street competitor and he would still be in the trophies for A-Street. (and this is his first year of autocross with no changes to the car but a mild autocross alignment)

Hey don't use my driving skills as a reason why this car must stay in AS. LOL

Honestly I do see your logic, but I could argue the same logic should move Bryan and his FRS out of D-Street as he doesn't really have any stiff competition in class. Regionally we don't have any B-Street competition the largest turnout for B-Street has only been 3 cars, and all our good A-Street drivers are running in our Pro Street Tire class. I'm still WAY OFF their pace. I know that my being a rookie makes the car look like its very fast since I'm over achieving some people's expectations (not my own yet). I'm very competitive and I hate knowing that I have to modify my car significantly and try to compete in CAM-C instead of being able to keep a decent budget and compete in Street class. Honestly they buried the car in A-Street until they learned what its capabilities are. I know that 1 car running at Nationals is hardly a good delta. However, you and Robby advised me yourselves to run CAM-C (in a stock SS 1LE) and forego competing in A-Street because we agreed it was my only chance of being competitive at the Bristol Champ Tour. That shouldn't happen! I shouldn't have to jump to a higher class just to escape how badly my car is outmatched in A-Street. If you were playing minor league baseball and getting smoked in Single A it makes no sense that you would need to move up to Double A ball to be competitive!

We aren't asking to have the ball T'eed up for us here (F-Street) we're just looking for a fair chance to compete (B-Street). I want to have a chance to compare my PAX times to the best. I can tell you that being in A-Street I don't have a fair shot.

Bottom line is no one has any proof that shows that this car belongs in A-Street. Just leaving it there is very lazy on the SCCA's part. Especially if the only justification is because tons of them aren't driving across the country to get waxed at Nationals just to prove how out matched we are.

Move the cars to B-Street and if they don't think the results are fair, then move it back. It's no skin of their A&& if they have to move it twice. Frankly if the car stays in A-Street it will directly effect my attendance of next years events both on the National and Regional level. Thats an awful large contingent of drivers they might lose simply because they can't compete in Street classes.

BTW John, regionally, you would've run away with B-Street in your F-Street 5th gen SS 1LE too. Last event you beat the fastest B-Street car by 3 SECONDS!!! The event before that by 4 SECONDS!!!

Don't make me write to the SCCA about classing your car up

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by JRL1LE

As stated in earlier posts, I am not using just National's results, I included those because it was Nationals and it was recent. I have autoxed for 20 years, not a newbie looking for a class break. I included my own data/experience/results from autoxing this car, my C5Z06 and 2015 SS 1LE in street classes.
And as stated , next week a multi time national champion is driving this car to provide more data for analysis.

I just wish they would move us even if just for a 1 year experiment. I guarantee that B-Street Nationals would be very competitive. I know the SS 1LE wouldn't run away with it.

[apexit53]

since I have the current AS scca champ and the head of the SEB in my region.. if someone wants to trade straight up their 1LE for my 1SS I would be glad to run it the rest of this year and next to try and get it moved to BS lol!

I had originally planned to get a green 1LE for this very reason but I am also happy being competitive in FA with my current camaro. I doubt it will be 2018 but we need people to run these cars next year at national events! Get some more evidence out there for them to consider a move.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Personally I'm just not stressing on the AS vs. BS debate, I'm just focused on improving my skill cuz at the end of the day right now I'm not winning any class lol I am getting a set of 19" w/ 305 RE71Rs for next season to have the car "Nationals Legal" and then I will be getting as much seat time as possible to try to improve my chances of competing with the local AS guys.

PERSONALLY (go ahead and crucify me and tell me how wrong I am!!!) I think the car can be competitive enough in A-Street if it's properly prepped and has a good driver (a Top-Tier driver for Nats). That's just my 2 cents haha