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Old 08-11-2016, 11:53 AM   #757
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:01 PM   #758
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A VW GTI doesn't handle bad either, but is closer in handling ability to the HC than the HC is to a 6th gen SS. Let that sink in. It's not that either car is bad, but there are clear and immediately noticeable differences in driving dynamics between the two. Most people just won't be able to fully utilize those differences short of a road course. Just like someone would not be able to fully utilize the power of the HC short of the strip.....legally and safely.
I fully understand your points.....IMHO, the Hellcat twins were FCA wonders for what they had to work with.
People that Bash them need to understand that they actually handle ALOT better than expected for something that size, and the insane, seemingly unending, amount of HP that it makes, is unreal!
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:10 PM   #759
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I fully understand your points.....IMHO, the Hellcat twins were FCA wonders for what they had to work with.
People that Bash them need to understand that they actually handle ALOT better than expected for something that size, and the insane, seemingly unending, amount of HP that it makes, is unreal!
Yep I'm not bashing them at all. Some people make out like they are unable to turn, dangerous, etc... Not the case. They just don't offer the level of handling you would expect for a Dodge Halo model. They run the same if not slower times than their SP siblings around the track. Offer better handling than a base Mustang GT but don't come close to the GTPP or SS in handling ability. The truth is we are spoiled by the performance available to us now. The bar has simply been raised higher than ever before by the big 3.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:41 PM   #760
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They just don't offer the level of handling you would expect for a Dodge Halo model.
Uh, this is their halo drag strip, bruiser car. So why would you expect better handling than it already comes with.

Their halo model for the track is the viper. It handles pretty well.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:46 PM   #761
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Uh, this is their halo drag strip, bruiser car. So why would you expect better handling than it already comes with.

Their halo model for the track is the viper. It handles pretty well.
Because their competition in the ZL1 and GT500 both offer better handling. The Viper does not compete in this segment just like the C7 and it's hi po models don't.

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Old 08-11-2016, 01:44 PM   #762
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For many who don't care to just race between lights and go down the strip, we want superior handling, we want all around performance; so it does matter how well they do at the Ring, VIR etc., as these speak directly to how well the car handles, braking, acceleration, balance etc. = overall performance.

It is interesting that, it appears on this forum, (please let me know if i'm wrong) that none of the HC owners or pundits care about road course times ( i think we know why). on Camaro6 you have obviously found many folks who are let's say "on the camaro side" for lack of a better phrase, who will praise the HC for it's ability to go 1320 feet in a straight line. You will surely find some resistance when someone says that the HC will "walk" A Z06, or that "at my track nobody beats my buddies HC"...but WE ALL know how well the HC does in this regard, and give it due props.

It is too bad, at least according to the few HC enthusiasts here on Camaro6, that 1320 is the only thing that matters, and that until GM's products can easily start "Walking" a HC down the strip, that apparently they just aren't worth discussing.

Just my impressions of the discussion so far.

p.s. I also find it interesting now that trap speeds etc. have been released the focus seems to have shifted to how comfortable the HC is vs. a Camaro and that now seems to be the deciding factor on which car is better.
I enjoyed the handling of the 85 Iroc, that car was comfortable and for it's time it was an awesome driver. Only thing about a car that can handle like that is that most drivers cannot meet the performance of the car. Many of us grew up in an era of the automobile when drag racing was a main staple of the USA. Maybe because cars didn't really handle very well back then. We've seen an era of our youth which thrived on the Import craze and those little cars handled quite well. Problem with that was the ignorance of those driving wrecklessly throughout the streets and highways of America creating a very dangerous safety problem for unsuspecting pedestrians and motorists. It is unsafe to street race period hence the track statements. The track, whichever your poison should be the only venue a car gets the test of it's potential. It isn't that the Hellcat is all that however, it is pretty much a Challenger which many thousands found attractive due to it's retro styling as well as a nice road car which offered very nice interior appointments and comfort for those who were in the car market. The Hellcat goes true to American heritage in that it offers a hell of an amount of power which clearly placed it at the head of the performance arena. That car has been available for a longtime where Chevy and Ford had nothing to compete with. The gen 5 Camaro had nothing to bring whatsoever. That's just the way it is. Like my 1985 Iroc z, you could go around a corner but when the road went straight you were going to get your ass handed to you.
Now that Chevy has put the Camaro on a diet and given it some power I just hope they let the car wring out it's potential in all aspects. Personally, as stated several times in this and other threads I'm a diehard Chevy guy but I appreciate a Giant when I see one, regardless the monker. Want to see another eye opener, watch a Tesla lay down a 7 flat number in it's dead quiet mode. Those cars are quick as hell but I don't like the car overall. They will fall apart soon enough the way they are built. If you have a size 11 foot, it's hard to get into the back seat because of the door opening.
We'll how the ZL1 turns out real numbers wise. I'm hoping it kills the Hellcat personally. I'm sure Chevy would like that as well. Maybe the ZL1 actually has some power above and beyond the rating.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:46 PM   #763
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Then give me the Option of a 650 HP "track" car, or 800 STOCK Warrantied HP and less handling!
GM giving options.. that's funny.

Send your Car to Hennessey or Callaway or any of the other big tuners and you can get your 800hp and warranty.

A big car company is not going to bow to your wishes. 650HP is a LOT of horsepower. And the ZL1 is a road course based car.

If all you want to do is go straight line, buy a 1SS and up the power through aftermarket mods. it would be a lot cheaper

I love my 5th Gen ZL1, I have been to the road tracks and ran the car at 9/10ths, running with and surpassing cars that cost twice as much, and for me that will beat racing 1/4 mile any day of the week.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:28 PM   #764
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GM giving options.. that's funny.

Send your Car to Hennessey or Callaway or any of the other big tuners and you can get your 800hp and warranty.

A big car company is not going to bow to your wishes. 650HP is a LOT of horsepower. And the ZL1 is a road course based car.

If all you want to do is go straight line, buy a 1SS and up the power through aftermarket mods. it would be a lot cheaper

I love my 5th Gen ZL1, I have been to the road tracks and ran the car at 9/10ths, running with and surpassing cars that cost twice as much, and for me that will beat racing 1/4 mile any day of the week.
I'd imagine I'd feel the same way if I had an over rated underpowed car. At 580 hp that car should run 11 flat.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:38 PM   #765
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Based on what? The GT500 at 662 hp didn't run that. And shouldn't then the Hellcat should be running 10 flat?
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:47 PM   #766
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Based on what? The GT500 at 662 hp didn't run that. And shouldn't then the Hellcat should be running 10 flat?
GT500s have run 11.7@135mph (R&T review) and 11.8@125mph (C&D review). Pretty much on top of the same numbers ran by Hellcats. GT500 has as much traction issues as the Hellcats.


*correction R&T times were Ford press times. Thought that MPH looked funny. MT got 11.6@125mph with their test.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:51 PM   #767
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I enjoyed the handling of the 85 Iroc, that car was comfortable and for it's time it was an awesome driver. Only thing about a car that can handle like that is that most drivers cannot meet the performance of the car. Many of us grew up in an era of the automobile when drag racing was a main staple of the USA. Maybe because cars didn't really handle very well back then. We've seen an era of our youth which thrived on the Import craze and those little cars handled quite well. Problem with that was the ignorance of those driving wrecklessly throughout the streets and highways of America creating a very dangerous safety problem for unsuspecting pedestrians and motorists. It is unsafe to street race period hence the track statements. The track, whichever your poison should be the only venue a car gets the test of it's potential. It isn't that the Hellcat is all that however, it is pretty much a Challenger which many thousands found attractive due to it's retro styling as well as a nice road car which offered very nice interior appointments and comfort for those who were in the car market. The Hellcat goes true to American heritage in that it offers a hell of an amount of power which clearly placed it at the head of the performance arena. That car has been available for a longtime where Chevy and Ford had nothing to compete with. The gen 5 Camaro had nothing to bring whatsoever. That's just the way it is. Like my 1985 Iroc z, you could go around a corner but when the road went straight you were going to get your ass handed to you.
Now that Chevy has put the Camaro on a diet and given it some power I just hope they let the car wring out it's potential in all aspects. Personally, as stated several times in this and other threads I'm a diehard Chevy guy but I appreciate a Giant when I see one, regardless the monker. Want to see another eye opener, watch a Tesla lay down a 7 flat number in it's dead quiet mode. Those cars are quick as hell but I don't like the car overall. They will fall apart soon enough the way they are built. If you have a size 11 foot, it's hard to get into the back seat because of the door opening.
We'll how the ZL1 turns out real numbers wise. I'm hoping it kills the Hellcat personally. I'm sure Chevy would like that as well. Maybe the ZL1 actually has some power above and beyond the rating.
Oh I can appreciate the importance of the drag strip in the 60's and 70's and today. It's sort of in my blood. I guess my only issue in this discussion is, and maybe i'm seeing it all wrong, but it is that for many, if the ZL1 can't beat the Hellcat by a half second down the strip, then it sucks and GM should have given it 800HP etc., and my point along with many others is that the ZL1 isn't JUST ABOUT the strip, at least for 5th and 6th Gen it hasn't been, and why not appreciate that as much as one appreciates what the Hellcat can do at the strip.

With regards to handling and not being able to push it safely unless you are on a track; I think that for those who can tell the difference, they don't need to push the car to the extreme to utilize and enjoy and feel the difference when they are driving it on public roads, and for them the car with the better handling may be the car for them.
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Old 08-11-2016, 05:08 PM   #768
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I am a 6th gen Camaro 2SS owner...I have not found the cars handling limit yet, mainly because of the seats! I do not have a course close, but plenty of winding County roads and on/off ramps.
BUT I DO have plenty of 1/4 mile race tracks.
If I can't find the handling limit on a 2SS on the street, then why would I want more handling?
I want a damn 800hp Factory Beast! Cause you know that's what Ford and the Kitty Maker are gonna do!
This is a lot of my point as well. So far on this forum I've only come across a couple of folks that actually go to the track at all, much less a road course. I'm not saying you have to have track time under your belt to provide input, but some on here spout numbers that have no bearing on anything like it's gospel and have zero experience themselves. Luckily, there are very few of those folks, and they don't appear to be well respected anyway.

My 2SS really surprises me as well. I've pushed it quite hard on some clover leafs and have yet to get it the slightest bit upset and glancing at the HUD I saw 78MPH blip by the other day well in to one of those clover leafs in an increase radius turn to boot. I was impressed. My 370z would start to feel like the rear suspension was hopping at much less than that on the same stretch of road.

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Now according to GM press numbers (which have been conservative the last few cars they have released):

Quarter-mile in 11.4 seconds at 127 mph

If you wanted to blow the HC out of the water on the track, accept the reality. It takes a hell of a lot power, weight loss, and/or pure drag tires to go that much faster. We are very much at the limits of what a RWD car can do and still meet federal safety and emissions requirements. Dodge knows this all to well. They had to detune the HC to meet emissions. And I got news for you, they aren't find anymore power without a DI swap which they have no money or development in so far. There are rumors the HEMIs are gone after 2020. FCA has abandoned small cars and CAFE penalties just increased 150%. FCA has no trans development of their own and are stuck with the 8 and 9 speed units ZF developed. ZF has admitted they want no part of 10 speeds or higher and will just change ratios to meet CAFE targets. So say goodbye to another advantage FCA has used with more aggressive gearing. To meet CAFE targets, FCA has to radically change their approach. All this means you will not see the HC beyond the current gen platforms in the sense it is now. Smaller, lighter cars with turbo 4 and turbo 6s may be all they will offer in the new gen. Maybe a smaller more efficient turbo V8 could become the new HC then, but the future of Dodge is bleak at this point.
You make some good points. FCA thought those small cars would sell like hot cakes and they didn't. They are butt ugly IMO, and I never see one on the road. If they're relying on that to keep their CAFE standards in check they are in big trouble. I hope they keep making the Challenger just like it is but it's unlikely. I "think" the design of the HC was prior to FCA taking over. We had a guy on the Challenger forum that has something to do with engineering over at Dodge and he was dropping vague hints about a supercharged 6.2 back in 2011 or 2012. Now FCA is just riding on it's success. I'm glad they haven't made any major changes to the Challenger as I personally love the styling and the newer ones look fantastic, but reality is probably they don't have the money to change it.

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I tried to reserve Judgment on the Kitty Twins until I drove one....I've driven ALOT of cars in my 55 years and always worked in the Auto Industry.
Honestly, the Kitty Challenger doesn't handle much worse than my 2SS, you really have to have throttle control all the time....But the INSANE amount of non-stopping power is just electrifying!
My buddy has 315 DR's on, and you still have to "drive it"!
I think I'm gonna wait on the ZL1 and see if the Kitty Moves to the Fiat Platform....that Motor right now is just ridiculous!
I think that's the other issue. People form opinions based on what they've heard or read, rather than actually driving the car themselves. I always make it a point to go drive one before I make any real strong statements. I get that a lot of dealers won't just hand you the keys to a HC, but if you're in the car culture it's likely you can find someone with one that will at least give you a ride to show it off. Until you've driven or ridden in one of these HCs, you just can't appreciate how powerful they are and how much the weight really doesn't "feel" like it matters for anything other than trying to set lap records at Laguna Seca.

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A VW GTI doesn't handle bad either, but is closer in handling ability to the HC than the HC is to a 6th gen SS. Let that sink in. It's not that either car is bad, but there are clear and immediately noticeable differences in driving dynamics between the two. Most people just won't be able to fully utilize those differences short of a road course. Just like someone would not be able to fully utilize the power of the HC short of the strip.....legally and safely.
I would argue you'll use the power A LOT more than handling. Handling is fun but raw power has a lot more opportunities for enjoyment. If all we cared about were handling, we'd be on a Miata forum LOL. If a car can do it all, that's bonus points, but any of the modern cars are no real slouches handling wise. Sounds like the new ZL1 will be pretty awesome all around, so should be the best of both worlds. The 127MPH trap speed you mention above really got my attention. I was expecting 123 - 124. Then they really got me with the price mentioned at $62K. I was expecting much more than that. I'm sure the first year dealers will screw people with ADM though.

<following not directed at anyone in particular, just information for the discussion in general>

I do get my Challenger out and hit twisties with it. It weighs right about 4300lbs with me in it (depending on fuel level). It doesn't have some special suspension like a HC, just an Eibach sport kit so it handles better than a stock R/T but nothing like a HC. It has Baer brakes so again stops better than a stock R/T but nothing like a HC. It has supercharger and a built motor and has the same horse power as a HC. For most of the below I was close to triple digits and it felt just fine. This was just a nice Saturday afternoon romp testing out a new GoPro. I post this to say that just because a car weighs 4300lbs doesn't mean it runs off the road at the first bend in the road.

The real fun bit is about the 2 min mark. I wasn't anywhere near the limits, this was literally just playing around. Maybe 5/10.

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Old 08-14-2016, 01:21 PM   #769
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The car is extremely fun to drive. While my previous 5th gen ZL1, 1LE and SS were fun, solid vehicles in their own right the Hellcat is just so much raw power. It does require a bit more effort for cornering honestly. But the space, comfortability, etc is better than the 5th Gens I've owned.

The 6th Gen cramps me honestly. I'm 6'2, 230lbs mind you. I remember my knee having slight pain over long periods of time with the ZL1. I don't get that in the Challenger at all. I'm excited for the 6th Gen ZL1 and I want one. Love the creature comforts and the all around performance that Chevy offers. I'm excited...
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Old 08-14-2016, 09:48 PM   #770
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The car is extremely fun to drive. While my previous 5th gen ZL1, 1LE and SS were fun, solid vehicles in their own right the Hellcat is just so much raw power. It does require a bit more effort for cornering honestly. But the space, comfortability, etc is better than the 5th Gens I've owned.

The 6th Gen cramps me honestly. I'm 6'2, 230lbs mind you. I remember my knee having slight pain over long periods of time with the ZL1. I don't get that in the Challenger at all. I'm excited for the 6th Gen ZL1 and I want one. Love the creature comforts and the all around performance that Chevy offers. I'm excited...
Nailed it. The Hellcat interior (challenger or charger) is really a nice place, especially if you're a bigger guy. Gotta love that there are cars that absolutely fill specific needs for specific buyers. Camaros, Mustangs and Challengers all appeal to a slightly different enthusiast.....and that's a good thing for the car biz.
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