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Old 12-02-2016, 08:34 PM   #1
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Driving without a Tune?

What modifications can I run on the stock tune without it negatively affect my car?

I understand that I will be leaving HP/torque on the table, but will I be hurting the engine or other related components in any way?

(mod ex. intake, headers, catback, ported tb, cam, cat delete, etc.)
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:03 PM   #2
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It appears a ported TB and intake manifold don't negatively impact the AFR, as PRAY proved with his excellent write-up. So the stock tune is good there.

A secondary cat delete is a no-brainer as the ECU doesn't monitor them anyway...however there's limited power to be gained there. Catalytic converters aren't leaving much on the table anymore. I'd put this one in mainly a "I want to change the sound" category. Do you have the factory NPP?

The Roto-Fab CAI appears to retain the MAF scaling so that's OK. Some other airboxes look to skew the MAF scaling so they'd need a tune.


After that, things that change the VE like long-tube headers, camshaft, and cylinder head porting will need an ECU tune.
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:23 PM   #3
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Personally, anytime you change the air flow into the engine, I would tune it. Now the question, " will not tuning it effect my car negitivly?" I would have to see what the AFR does.

I thought PRAY tuned his car when he changed his manifold?
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Old 12-03-2016, 10:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KillerSS View Post
Personally, anytime you change the air flow into the engine, I would tune it. Now the question, " will not tuning it effect my car negitivly?" I would have to see what the AFR does.

I thought PRAY tuned his car when he changed his manifold?
PRAY tuned his car first and then installed the ported bits. They did not affect the AFR so there was no need to change the fueling. He also fiddled with the ignition timing and found the stock strategy very good, within a half degree of optimum for his engine.

Keep in mind the ECU is operating in closed loop for spark (via knock). The tuning topics of fuel injection timing and cam phasing aren't as commonly discussed here but it's unlikely there's a ton left on the table with those.

Hope that helps,
Ryan
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Last edited by Ryephile; 03-02-2017 at 12:40 PM. Reason: found out this ECU runs open loop fueling w/narrowband :(
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Old 12-03-2016, 10:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
It appears a ported TB and intake manifold don't negatively impact the AFR, as PRAY proved with his excellent write-up. So the stock tune is good there.

A secondary cat delete is a no-brainer as the ECU doesn't monitor them anyway...however there's limited power to be gained there. Catalytic converters aren't leaving much on the table anymore. I'd put this one in mainly a "I want to change the sound" category. Do you have the factory NPP?

The Roto-Fab CAI appears to retain the MAF scaling so that's OK. Some other airboxes look to skew the MAF scaling so they'd need a tune.


After that, things that change the VE like long-tube headers, camshaft, and cylinder head porting will need an ECU tune.
should be a sticky
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
PRAY tuned his car first and then installed the ported bits. They did not affect the AFR so there was no need to change the fueling. He also fiddled with the ignition timing and found the stock strategy very good, within a half degree of optimum for his engine.

Keep in mind the ECU is operating in closed loop for both fuel (via wideband) and spark (via knock). The tuning topics of fuel injection timing and cam phasing aren't as commonly discussed here but it's unlikely there's a ton left on the table with those.

Hope that helps,
Ryan
The fact that he tuned it before the changes, gives less credibility to the whole thing. If this was the case on a stock tune, I would be more prone to agree.
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:12 PM   #7
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We did testing of the ported intake manifold and TB today on a M6 with an untouched ECM. The only modification to the car is a Stainless Works catback. Swaps were done in a very short time to avoid weather changes.

I will post the results as soon as I can parse through the runs and data.

Before/after results utilizing the same tune are very valid. They show the max gains possible.

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Old 12-03-2016, 08:23 PM   #8
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Tim, what about adding a Rotofab to the mix with the Ported IM/TB? I know you had said the rotofab did not require a retune of the MAF so I just wanted to confirm all 3 can be ran without negative impacts.
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:36 PM   #9
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We also did back to back on Rotofab today. 100% ABSOLUTELY Rotofab outperforms the stock cold air intake manifold when you start modifying beyond stock. We dynoed Rotofab -> stock -> Rotofab with zero changes other than the parts swap (all within a very short period of time). I will post the data shortly. We wanted to end the debate on its worthiness.

We did 3 runs for each run throwing out the first run of each set as we wanted to make sure everything was at operating
temperature.

If you do ported IM/TB and leave the stock cold air in place you are leaving substanital HP on the table.

I will post the results of everything tonight or tomorrow morning.

Tim
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Old 12-03-2016, 09:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EFI Tuning View Post
We also did back to back on Rotofab today. 100% ABSOLUTELY Rotofab outperforms the stock cold air intake manifold when you start modifying beyond stock. We dynoed Rotofab -> stock -> Rotofab with zero changes other than the parts swap (all within a very short period of time). I will post the data shortly. We wanted to end the debate on its worthiness.

We did 3 runs for each run throwing out the first run of each set as we wanted to make sure everything was at operating
temperature.

If you do ported IM/TB and leave the stock cold air in place you are leaving substanital HP on the table.

I will post the results of everything tonight or tomorrow morning.

Tim
Waiting to hear results! So far, everyone who is bone stock added the Rotofab and mention that they can feel a slight performance increase.
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EFI Tuning View Post
We also did back to back on Rotofab today. 100% ABSOLUTELY Rotofab outperforms the stock cold air intake manifold when you start modifying beyond stock. We dynoed Rotofab -> stock -> Rotofab with zero changes other than the parts swap (all within a very short period of time). I will post the data shortly. We wanted to end the debate on its worthiness.

We did 3 runs for each run throwing out the first run of each set as we wanted to make sure everything was at operating
temperature.

If you do ported IM/TB and leave the stock cold air in place you are leaving substanital HP on the table.

I will post the results of everything tonight or tomorrow morning.

Tim

Hate to bring up old thread but I might be completely blind to have missed where this was posted with he rotofab and ported stock IM/TB with stock tune. Thanks
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:45 PM   #12
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just kidding found it
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Old 02-28-2017, 07:09 AM   #13
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I know you can add the mods below to your LT1 without risking any damage to anything. You may not get the most out of those mods, but we are talking only about a couple of HP. The stock LT1 tune is pretty good.

If you choose a CAI that does not make the engine run lean you can run a ported TB, CAI, LTs, cats, and any pipes/catbacks safely. I have done this twice with 2 previous 5th gen Camaros for thousands of miles and then changed everything back to stock to trade in.

Probably you can also add a ported intake manifold to that list, but I have never done that.

Don't run your car without cats. It's just irresponsible.

This will give you maybe 15-25 HP.

The downsides?

You will get some CELs as you are messing with the O2 sensor placement. You can just use a code editor to read the codes and turn them off.

Also if you take your car into the dealer with a blown engine with those mods they may deny you warranty coverage.

OP if you are squeamish about warranty coverage don't do any of this. Your peace of mind is worth much more than a couple of HP.

But modding is fun.
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Old 02-28-2017, 07:34 PM   #14
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I just saw this. I will post up some graphs in a sec. There are atleast three cars that I know of now that are running the ported IM/TB/Rotofab. One got MD dyno numbers at 412/400rw. Stock cars run 380 on that dyno. No tune on the car 12.4 afr.
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