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Old 08-17-2020, 07:56 PM   #57
travislambert

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
Funny you mention it, there are. I’ve just started WOT tuning over the past couple of days and have had a chance to take a closer look at this pumps performance. My car is pullied very conservative for the build since I’m worried about fuel. I just don’t think this pump has much benefit over the LT4 I’m sorry to say, and probably no advantage over an LT4/voltage booster combo. At 87 lbs/min airflow (about 740 WHP) the pump will not hold 70 psi...it drops to 40 psi during the run. I’m calling for 15.9 volts to the pump and commanding 500 KPA (72.5 psi), so I believe I have it tuned correctly in the ECM/FSCM. And this is pump 93 gas (E10 here in New England), so no real E to speak of.

So, on the positive side, I’m not running a voltage booster (I think boosting the voltage with this pump would likely pop the FSCM fuse) so it’s a simple setup that didn’t cost a lot. And I didn’t lose the factory bucket in the tank, which is a good thing if I ever decide to take it to a road course.

On the negative side, I was hoping for a little more oomph. The pump is supposedly rated for 1000 HP with gasoline (no E). I suppose I can try commanding 40 psi and see if it holds it for a long pull...?
Thanks for this feedback. It's very good information.

If your pressure is dropping that much, then you are right at the edge of losing all pressure. Pumps certainly flow better at lower pressures, but I don't know that commanding 275 kpa is a good idea. Commanding higher pressure won't help either. I've spent hours on the dyno tweaking fuel pump related settings and it basically was just a long exercise to learn the settings are optimal in stock form (at least for the stock pump).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
...I’m calling for 15.9 volts to the pump...
I assume you are using the Fuel System Voltage Min table. Are you sure that's doing what you think it's doing? I'm not sure it actually increases the voltage to the pump (maybe it does). What it might do though is work against you and cause the FPCM to command a lower duty cycle. If it thinks your pump is working at 15.9 and you still have Base duty cycle table and the VBAT Mult table configured for the stock pump, I bet it will reduce pump performance instead of increase it.

I'd leave the voltages in the tune stock and work to get the calibration for the pump correct if you haven't already (Min DC, Base, VBAT Mult).

In the end, you still may need a voltage booster, but at least the configuration will be correct which will allow the car to maintain steady pressure instead of bouncing high and low.


(BTW. Take this for what it's worth. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. I've just spent a lot of time experimenting with fuel pump settings.)
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by travislambert View Post
Thanks for this feedback. It's very good information.

If your pressure is dropping that much, then you are right at the edge of losing all pressure. Pumps certainly flow better at lower pressures, but I don't know that commanding 275 kpa is a good idea. Commanding higher pressure won't help either. I've spent hours on the dyno tweaking fuel pump related settings and it basically was just a long exercise to learn the settings are optimal in stock form (at least for the stock pump).


I assume you are using the Fuel System Voltage Min table. Are you sure that's doing what you think it's doing? I'm not sure it actually increases the voltage to the pump (maybe it does). What it might do though is work against you and cause the FPCM to command a lower duty cycle. If it thinks your pump is working at 15.9 and you still have Base duty cycle table and the VBAT Mult table configured for the stock pump, I bet it will reduce pump performance instead of increase it.

I'd leave the voltages in the tune stock and work to get the calibration for the pump correct if you haven't already (Min DC, Base, VBAT Mult).

In the end, you still may need a voltage booster, but at least the configuration will be correct which will allow the car to maintain steady pressure instead of bouncing high and low.


(BTW. Take this for what it's worth. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. I've just spent a lot of time experimenting with fuel pump settings.)
Good stuff Travis. Iíve modified the VBat table since I noticed it reduces the duty cycle at ďnormalĒ car voltages, so I put that table to 1.00 to stop that. I also put allowed max DC to 130, expecting that to help but it didnít. Seemed to get worse actually.

Agreed, Iím not sure about the Fuel System Min Voltage table. I just took the stock ZL1 table and tweaked it up a tick to 15.9, but Iím not entirely sure if that helps either. But I feel like the pump is capable of more, but not sure where Iím going wrong.

I guess another possibility is the factory fuel line might not be big enough? Iím running the LPE check and eliminated the tiny OEM one that was pinched into the original fuel hose, so hopefully that is one bottleneck gone. But I found it interesting that I was holding full 2900# rail pressure even though the low side was dropping pretty good, so Iím thinking maybe the check setup helped with that.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
Good stuff Travis. I’ve modified the VBat table since I noticed it reduces the duty cycle at “normal” car voltages, so I put that table to 1.00 to stop that. I also put allowed max DC to 130, expecting that to help but it didn’t. Seemed to get worse actually.
It's a balancing act. Too high or too low and the fuel supply will not be optimal. When you max out settings, one of two things will happen. Either the pump will start cavitating and reduce flow or you'll bump up against a max pressure which will trigger a large correction.

I've learned you have to try to keep it right in the sweet spot at WOT (~500 KPA). Not higher or lower. Of course, you'll get some minor correction during shifts, but with steady demand the pressure should be really steady. If not, something is not optimal.

If I may offer more advice, I'd say do your best to configure the tables as close to the actual performance of the pump as possible. Find every spec sheet or test you can find to get actual numbers. When everything is in balance, I'm confident that's when the pump will provide the most fuel. Don't be tempted to bump up settings in an attempt to make the pump work harder. That's what I was doing, and I wasted days of my life tweaking settings only to find out that's not how it works best. It's like whac-a-mole. A tweak in one place may appear to make things better under a specific condition, but somewhere else a problem will crop up.

After tweaking pretty much everything, I landed on a config with only the High Flow mode conditions slightly tweaked to be enabled at 3,200. Everything else is now back to stock with the fuel pump tune (just using the JMS booster now). (I know your pump is different than mine, but just sharing my experience.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
...
I guess another possibility is the factory fuel line might not be big enough?
The factory fuel line should be plenty large enough. Going to a larger line might improve the pressure drops by a few PSI, but I don't think it will make a meaningful difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
...
I’m running the LPE check and eliminated the tiny OEM one that was pinched into the original fuel hose, so hopefully that is one bottleneck gone. But I found it interesting that I was holding full 2900# rail pressure even though the low side was dropping pretty good, so I’m thinking maybe the check setup helped with that.
That's interesting! My check valve is stock and the pressure drops seemed to correlate pretty well between the low and high side. Who knows? Maybe it does make a positive difference.
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Old 08-19-2020, 06:28 PM   #60
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This with a JMS might be the ticket!
I think @scantone was on to something. I just ordered up a JMS voltage booster and will give that a try with the DW400. Stay tuned...
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:34 PM   #61
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JMS update

So, after adding the JMS voltage booster, I can confirm that itís a must have, even with the bigger DW400 pump. With my build finally getting dialed in, Iím not spinning the blower very hard (only 11 psi), so HP Tuners shows ~90 lb/min of airflow (around 900 crank HP, maybe 760 at the wheels). Only on 93 octane now (E10 around here). *Without* the JMS, I would command 72 psi and it would start there, but by the end of two full gears of WOT, I would be down to 38 psi... not good! *With* the JMS, Iím still commanding 72 psi, and itís holding it the full time, no problem.

Iím sure itís capable of more, and of adding E of course, but unfortunately Iím still limited by my injectors currently (5.7ms). Once I get a chance to play with that a bit and get that down, Iíll pulley the Whipple down a bit and see where the next road block is... or, maybe try adding some E.

TLDR: you need the JMS, no matter what in tank pump youíre running.
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:35 AM   #62
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5.7ms on the injectors is safe imo. 6.2-6.3 is about as high as I like to see them in short blips.
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:04 PM   #63
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I want one

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Originally Posted by Dixie ZL1 View Post
I can build more of these if anyone is interest. The Cadillac ATS-V community is now using this pump modification
Hi Dixie ZL1. I'd like to buy this setup. Please contact me asap

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Old 04-06-2021, 03:36 PM   #64
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Bringing this thread back to life.
Deatschwerks has a new kit available for 2016+ Camaros.
https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-442-c103-0902
Did anyone try this one yet?
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Old 04-06-2021, 06:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by swisstyphoon View Post
Bringing this thread back to life.
Deatschwerks has a new kit available for 2016+ Camaros.
https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-442-c103-0902
Did anyone try this one yet?
Looks like very little improvement over the DW400 unfortunately... (405 LPH vs 390 at 60 psi). The other question is: could you use a JMS voltage booster with the 440 (you can with the 400)?

Although there is something to be said about the brushless pump making way less heat in the fuel.
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:01 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Joshinator99 View Post
Looks like very little improvement over the DW400 unfortunately... (405 LPH vs 390 at 60 psi). The other question is: could you use a JMS voltage booster with the 440 (you can with the 400)?

Although there is something to be said about the brushless pump making way less heat in the fuel.
I think the JMS Voltage booster would not work with the box that comes with this kit.
Looks like the stock ZL1 pump with a Voltage booster is still the better option.
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Old 04-07-2021, 12:15 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swisstyphoon View Post
I think the JMS Voltage booster would not work with the box that comes with this kit.
Looks like the stock ZL1 pump with a Voltage booster is still the better option.
Might be worth reaching out to DW to inquire about the voltage booster question.
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