Top speed run

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 1911 1LE

Robert, thanks for chiming in and explaining things in detail. BTW, the GT was 240.0 at the half. My simple math came up with him gaining 10mph in less than a second on average to 300.4mph.

I got similar results going from 230 to 300 assuming constant acceleration (even though it clearly won't be constant). A 60 mph speed increase in under 6 flat, starting at a speed that a stock car can't even get close to.

At some point, you simply can't get enough traction to overcome the drag forces. More power by itself won't fix that.


Norm

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Actually, when you multiply the speed by 3.5, you need to multiply the drag force by 12.25. Drag is proportional to speed, squared.


Norm

I don't math, even as a subsea engineer, (I was able to find out the stuff I needed and build expressive spread sheets to do what i needed,) but I know you have that stuff on lock... So I defer...

Originally Posted by Aqua Blue RS/SS

SSE 4 2SS
You sir, are a bad ass. It’s quite refreshing to learn from someone who has been there done that not just done some google searches. That post was fascinating to me. Thanks for sharing. I’ve been into Motorsports all my life but never really been into any mile+ stuff. I enjoy it all and I might have to go check one of these events out some day soon.
I wish you nothing but the best health wise, sounds like you’ve had a rough time. Hope you can get everything figured out!

Norm, I don’t have enough fingers and toes for that kind of math
thanks for sharing that in reality I do understand your math.

Thanks but I'm not a badass, I was just driven... to drive...and force fed information to prevent repeat actions.... I made a huge share of blunders, I was just fortunate enough that none of them ever ended up with bent sheet metal.... Thanks for the kind words on the health issues... I'm doing better but my cardiologist will not let me return offshore.... EVER...

Originally Posted by pnwdan

Rear spoiler is for rear down force at speeds in corners not straights. That is why they added the wicker bill to the Z28 for the track

Based on that logic, the piece of equipment on the back of this car is cosmetic, and thus a waste... Sorry.... This is the mythical information of the interwebs....

Top fuel cars raise the wing way above the car to get it into smooth air above the engine.... Funny cars have the "trunk lid" raised way out of proportion to the street bodied cars they emulate. This eliminates the separation boundary, and then they add a huge oversized wing.... even for just going in a straight line...



The purpose of the "oversized" spoiler on the newish Vettes, with the added wickerbill (which actually curled forward), and the added wickerbill on the Z-28 is to create a high pressure zone, by trapping air in front of it, effectively raising the level of the "sheet metal", thus reducing the low pressure zone (lift) behind the rear glass at the trunk lid area.

The low pressure is caused at the separation boundary.... This is where the air is passing too fast off the roof line and it no longer sticks to the vehicle, which then causes the air to tumble and it creates a low pressure area, which is a stallin this case... By "effectively" raising the skin, you reduce the tumble and smooth out the flow off the back of the car...

In the following image, from 2014 or '15 ZL1 testing, note the high pressure areas. The pad on the front of the fascia at the very front of the car.... then the smooth flow up towards but well over the windshield.... There is a high pressure area that develops at the base of the windshield. The air then goes over the roof, with less clearance and the area to really note is as the air comes off the roof... You see it suddenly spread out and thin... This is the visual of the separation boundary, where the air starts to tumble creating a low pressure area. The wickerbill and spoiler on both the C7 vettes and the Z28 effectively raises the deck lid height, and reduces this low pressure area tendency.... You can also aid this by installing vortex generators, just like those seen on plane wings.... which create a spiral of air, that sticks to the rear glass area better, reducing the low pressure area, that reduces down force... Please note, this is only 66 or 67 mph... At speeds over 200 mph, (outside the realm of most all road racing) the air eventually comes back down to deck height, but the car would be long gone and neither a lip spoiler or a wickerbill spoiler is going to do much good.... You need to raise the spoiler and move it back....

I apologize if I'm not explaining this very well...



Maybe this image will help....

Originally Posted by go_go_gadget88

Damn SSE 4 2SS, hell of a lot of good firsthand info/experience talking there! I recently started working my way through your build thread, and impressive is definitely in the list of words I have to say about it so far!!

Slightly relevant question to everyone - do you all know if there is more than 1 spot you have to change in the tune to remove the stock speed limiter? My tuner thought he had it bumped way higher than I would ever go, but the car still shuts down at 155. Not that I plan on these speeds much (if at all) but just curious if we missed something?

If you are reading through my build thread, you must be bored.... lol... I would have to ask my tuner about the speed limiter... I'll try to talk to him tomorrow and if I remember, I'll ask...

Originally Posted by Joecruiser

Sir,
That was a phenomenal video and music...we are all car guys, oh, gals too...
Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge with us.

Godspeed to you....beat those pesky health issue like you set the SS record...
Full Throttle!!!!

Thanks.... I'm always nervous posting videos, and that was my first ever attempt to make one.... I like how it turned out.... It also offers some perspective...

Originally Posted by 1911 1LE

Robert, thanks for chiming in and explaining things in detail. BTW, the GT was 240.0 at the half. My simple math came up with him gaining 10mph in less than a second on average to 300.4mph.
We going to see you in October?

Yeah, I didn't remember the split, and you guys made my day telling me about Big Red.... I went and looked, it was in Oct of '17, and I was being rude and opted for a trip to Trinidad for my heart attack rather than going to the Texas mile....

Thanks for the info... "Hell Yeah Big Red..." and yes, I'll be down there for a day visit on Saturday... A close friend of mine, who also suffered a major medical issue, and I have made the last two events on day trips, drive in, sit in the pit area with Corey and company, and then head back home the same day... That's about all either of us can handle in a weekend...

Originally Posted by frey.199

Just curious the same modifications people use to achieve good results in a 1/4 mile. Could that help reflect the same top speeds? I'm guessing it's a whole different build if you want top speed over acceleration. Just curious?

Power modifications, yes, it only requires a gear change, in the rear, and possibly in the transmission....

Having said that.... Mile racing is way harder on equipment than is 1/4 mile racing... In the mile the gearing is taller, thus less tendency to spin unless you make huge power, so you are loading the entire drive train and frame with full power for 20-35 seconds or so, depending on your power and speed potential. A 1/4 mile is with shorter(quicker) gearing, and thus, less stress on the motor and drive train...Think of a 10 speed bicycle...

You can use 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 10th, gear...

Or you can use 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th... which will accelerate you a hella lot quicker, but we all know the pedal effort is less, it's quicker, but less effort... The first gear set will allow you much higher top speeds for the mile distance, but you wont accelerate as quickly, while pedal effort will be tremendously higher....for the entire length of the mile.... partially due to the exponential increase in wind resistance Norm mentioned....

Originally Posted by 1911 1LE

If I remember correctly Big Red ran over 250

They did run 251.9, which is flipping awesome.... Second fastest Camaro at the Mile distance ever... Kelly Bise's 4th Gen still holds the record for all Camaro's at 263.2...before it was totaled....

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It also doesn't know that maybe you don't want as much of it when you're going straight as you do when you're turning . . .

or that in some instances you may need all the aero help you can get just to create the necessary traction. Then I guess you get to worry about aero balance.


Norm

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

or that in some instances you may need all the aero help you can get just to create the necessary traction. Then I guess you get to worry about aero balance.


Norm

Exactly....

Depending on whom you speak with, there is the expensive way and the cheap way.... One is one time fix that requires another appointment and lots of logistics to affect, and the other can be adjusted in the pits by reading data....

A wind tunnel can give you a variety of information and it's often at a given speed, say in the 60 - 70 mph range and then extrapolated out from there.... though some wind tunnels are capable of much higher speeds for a given purpose....

The other "cheap" option, is to install a management system that can gather data at every speed and overlay that with ride height sensor information from all four corners.... You can then change the weight bias with your coil overs, or +/- splitter effect, or +/- spoiler angle... This gives real world data rather than extrapolated information.



If you are spinning, you might add in spoiler and reduce splitter, while adding "weight" to the rears with coil over adjustments.... All of this can be accomplished in the pits at an event....

The location of vortex generators can be set in a wind tunnel, but it is only a WAG in real world conditions....

The best of all is to set the basics in a wind tunnel, and then tune it at the event, where even the surface of the track can determine if you need more or less of something...

The secret to world records is great planning, or lots of luck.... I fall in the latter category...

[Aqua Blue RS/SS]

Off shore huh? Im Into production in the fields around Farmington. I’ve been contemplating going down to Carlsbad or Midland for a little while now, haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Never done any off shore but I’m sure that’s a wild expierence. Have you sold your car yet? I know your were talking about it a while back? That has to be a hard thing to swallow.

[SquawkVFR]

Originally Posted by StingrayblueSS

https://youtu.be/Aw5hs4iVzj8 Here you go.

Where does it read 196? I can’t find the speedo or timer.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Aqua Blue RS/SS

Off shore huh? Im Into production in the fields around Farmington. I’ve been contemplating going down to Carlsbad or Midland for a little while now, haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Never done any off shore but I’m sure that’s a wild expierence. Have you sold your car yet? I know your were talking about it a while back? That has to be a hard thing to swallow.

Offshore isn't that different, with a couple of exceptions.... Everything is substantially bigger.... The BOP stacks I worked on are on average 60-65 feet tall and 550,000 to 1,200,000 lbs... With a 21.25 ID.

In the photo of the BOP stack below, there is a man for reference.. the one waving at me as I took the image... We move this stack over to the moonpool and lower it to the sea floor where we latch up to the wellhead. I've worked in water over 9,000 feet deep. These are designed for 12,000' sea water depth operations. The round tower next to the BOP stack is a crane pedestal base, one of 5 on this particular rig.



The next difference is that, if the guys on a land rig get pissed off, and quit, or get fired, they can walk over to their truck and drive away... There is nothing to stop them... This scenario offshore can create some humorous situations.... You can get on a chopper, if there is one in the area, and there is space available, and they actually have plans to land on your rig.... You can get on a water chopper (boat) but there is the issue of when the boat is headed in, and this can be from "now" to ten days or more from now... Then there is the question of is the boat actually headed in.... or is it going to another rig for a time... It gives you pause.... you think long and hard before doing something rash...

I was on a rig when two galley hands were fired.... They demanded to be put on a work boat next to the rig... This was discussed with the Co man, and the boat, and it was agreed they would be put off the rig for safety... (Their safety, as they were caught red handed stealing from guys and destroying personal clothing by tossing broken permanent markers into washing machines with travel clothes....) There were a couple of guys looking to stomp mud holes in their asses, and were perfectly capable of doing such.... So, they were loaded up in a transfer basket and put on the boat, where they were restricted to the galley, their assigned quarters and the smoking area.... Violate this and they could go to jail.... The boat wasn't to leave the rig for nine or so days.... They were fed and their clothing was taken care of, but they were stuck.... They could have called the coast guard but they were too stupid to realize this....

As took place with me, there is also the issue of illness and injuries on a rig... If an injury takes place early-ish in the day, they can get a chopper out for you, but say for a broken arm or smashed hand, you are still looking at hours minimum to arrive in a hospital. Night flights over water for a chopper are exceedingly dangerous, so unless it's critical, you will wait until the next morning.... The medic on board, of which I was for a while as a Paramedic/Flight Medic, will do what they can in the meantime...

Then there is illness, where the medic on board will do what they can and in cases like mine, I was very fortunate that there was both a medic, and also a doctor from Romania.... The company man was a good friend of mine who hired me by name for the project, and we had worked together many places around the world, and he was calling the shots... He ordered the Captain/OIM to turn the ship around and head towards Trinidad while at the same time calling for a chopper... Both the doctor and the medic flew in with me performing CPR and defibrillations for hours until we arrived....I was 12 hours from onset of the heart attack and having the stents placed...

As for the sale of my car, I have a stated buyer, but he does things on his schedule.... He's a good friend, so it's just a waiting game.... I'm fine with it for the simple reason that I had a goal, achieved that and I'm good with moving on.... I'll have another Camaro, just not right away....I just bought a new house and we are in the process of moving....

Originally Posted by SquawkVFR

Where does it read 196? I can’t find the speedo or timer.

There is no timer in standing mile events, only a speed display. The speed would be seen on the display boards at the event, and on the speed ticket... He probably has that, even though it isn't displayed in the video.... The speed isn't seen in any of my videos either.... I don't have a display that goes above 167 and the needle only goes to 180 if I remember correctly.... So, it's on the boards, the speed ticket and on the certified copy of the run signed off by the sanctioning body... I have both, as he probably does as well... I can guess my speed at any point by knowing what gear I'm in and what RPM I'm at...


Here is mine from my record pass, and that's the sales rep from ERL, Andres, who flew down to be with us when we broke the record....




I apologize for the thread jack....

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

Offshore isn't that different, with a couple of exceptions.... Everything is substantially bigger.... The BOP stacks I worked on are on average 60-65 feet tall and 550,000 to 1,200,000 lbs... With a 21.25 ID.

In the photo of the BOP stack below, there is a man for reference....(not the one on the riser gantry bridge... but the one waving at me as I took the image... We move this stack over to the moonpool and lower it to the sea floor where we latch up to the wellhead. I've worked in water over 9,000 feet deep. These are designed for 12,000' sea water depth operations. The round tower next to the BOP stack is a crane pedestal base, one of 5 on this particular rig.



The next difference is that, if the guys on a land rig get pissed off, and quit, or get fired, they can walk over to their truck and drive away... There is nothing to stop them... This scenario offshore can create some humorous situations.... You can get on a chopper, if there is one in the area, and there is space available, and they actually have plans to land on your rig.... You can get on a water chopper (boat) but there is the issue of when the boat is headed in, and this can be from "now" to ten days or more from now... Then there is the question of is the boat actually headed in.... or is it going to another rig for a time... It gives you pause.... you think long and hard before doing something rash...

I was on a rig when two galley hands were fired.... They demanded to be put on a work boat next to the rig... This was discussed with the Co man, and the boat, and it was agreed they would be put off the rig for safety... (Their safety, as they were caught red handed stealing from guys and destroying personal clothing by tossing broken permanent markers into washing machines with travel clothes....) There were a couple of guys looking to stomp mud holes in their asses, and were perfectly capable of doing such.... So, they were loaded up in a transfer basket and put on the boat, where they were restricted to the galley, their assigned quarters and the smoking area.... Violate this and they could go to jail.... The boat wasn't to leave the rig for nine or so days.... They were fed and their clothing was taken care of, but they were stuck.... They could have called the coast guard but they were too stupid to realize this....

As took place with me, there is also the issue of illness and injuries on a rig... If an injury takes place early-ish in the day, they can get a chopper out for you, but say for a broken arm or smashed hand, you are still looking at hours minimum to arrive in a hospital. Night flights over water for a chopper are exceedingly dangerous, so unless it's critical, you will wait until the next morning.... The medic on board, of which I was for a while as a Paramedic/Flight Medic, will do what they can in the meantime...

Then there is illness, where the medic on board will do what they can and in cases like mine, I was very fortunate that there was both a medic, and also a doctor from Romania.... The company man was a good friend of mine who hired me by name for the project, and we had worked together many places around the world, and he was calling the shots... He ordered the Captain/OIM to turn the ship around and head towards Trinidad while at the same time calling for a chopper... Both the doctor and the medic flew in with me performing CPR and defibrillations for hours until we arrived....I was 12 hours from onset of the heart attack and having the stents placed...

As for the sale of my car, I have a stated buyer, but he does things on his schedule.... He's a good friend, so it's just a waiting game.... I'm fine with it for the simple reason that I had a goal, achieved that and I'm good with moving on.... I'll have another Camaro, just not right away....I just bought a new house and we are in the process of moving....







There is no timer in standing mile events, only a speed display. The speed would be seen on the display boards at the event, and on the speed ticket... He probably has that, even though it isn't displayed in the video.... The speed isn't seen in any of my videos either.... I don't have a display that goes above 167 and the needle only goes to 180 if I remember correctly.... So, it's on the boards, the speed ticket and on the certified copy of the run signed off by the sanctioning body... I have both, as he probably does as well... I can guess my speed at any point by knowing what gear I'm in and what RPM I'm at...


Here is mine from my record pass, and that's the sales rep from ERL, Andres, who flew down to be with us when we broke the record....




I apologize for the thread jack....

No need for apology. Heh . . . car parts must have seemed absolutely tiny by comparison.

Best wishes on the health front.


Norm

[PeteD]

Originally Posted by pnwdan

Yes, so?

That's not the point
High speed straight line you need to stop the car from lifting in the front. You dont necessarily want the excessive down force in the rear as much as when you are carving tight corners and you dont want your rear to swing out.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Ah the internet has spoken

[Matty Ice]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

A couple of quick tricks to “help” reduce front end lift...

Remove the rubber weather stripping at the top of the fire wall... this will allow a metric crap ton (scientific terminology in the racing world) of air to escape from under the hood. In the process, it reduces the high pressure area that builds at the base of the windshield and most of the hood bounce in the process. Some, not all, of the hood bounce is possibly from the rubber weather stripping allowing pressure to build up until it burps past the weather stripping, whereupon the hood would seat back down to repeat the process... so why does GM install it... it keeps road grime and crap from coming out from under the hood to light upon your windscreen...

I tried this to see if it would work. I was amazed it did. It wasn't a big difference right away but I noticed the wind was quieter over the windshield. The more I drove at higher speeds I noticed the hood moved less, if at all, the car seemed to suck to the ground the faster I went. It seemed to level out the rear end dip/push from the my wickerbill added on to my rear spoiler. A nice cheap aero hack!

Thanks for the advice!

[SquawkVFR]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

Remove the rubber weather stripping at the top of the fire wall... this will allow a metric crap ton (scientific terminology in the racing world) air to escape from under the hood. In the process, it reduces the high pressure area that builds at the base of the windshield and most of the hood bounce in the process. Some, not all, of the hood bounce is possibly from the rubber weather stripping allowing pressure to build up until it burps past the weather stripping, whereupon the hood would seat back down to repeat the process... so why does GM install it... it keeps road grime and crap from coming out from under the hood to light upon your windscreen.

Originally Posted by Matty Ice

I tried this to see if it would work. I was amazed it did. It wasn't a big difference right away but I noticed the wind was quieter over the windshield. The more I drove at higher speeds I noticed the hood moved less, if at all, the car seemed to suck to the ground the faster I went. It seemed to level out the rear end dip/push from the my wickerbill added on to my rear spoiler. A nice cheap aero hack!

Thanks for the advice!

You had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.

I understand this conversation is about superspeeds, but it does beg the questions...

(First of all I’m gonna do this...your logic is sound. I can’t believe it’s the first time I’ve heard about it. I’m set up pretty good, and I’m fine with 150-170 closed course, generally 9 over highway speeds. No record breaking going on here.) Anyway...

Here’s my questions. Is this something that might make regular highway driving a little better, and if so how much road grime will get on the windshield and are their any dangers? Gas milage? This is a generic question...lol..mine is out the window...

[CamaroFred]

Originally Posted by SquawkVFR

You had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.

I understand this conversation is about superspeeds, but it does beg the questions...

(First of all I’m gonna do this...your logic is sound. I can’t believe it’s the first time I’ve heard about it. I’m set up pretty good, and I’m fine with 150-170 closed course, generally 9 over highway speeds. No record breaking going on here.) Anyway...

Here’s my questions. Is this something that might make regular highway driving a little better, and if so how much road grime will get on the windshield and are their any dangers? Gas milage? This is a generic question...lol..mine is out the window...

It prevents fluids and fumes from entering the vents supplying air to the interior.

[SquawkVFR]

Originally Posted by CamaroFred

It prevents fluids and fumes from entering the vents supplying air to the interior.

Well that blows.

[1911 1LE]

Originally Posted by CamaroFred

It prevents fluids and fumes from entering the vents supplying air to the interior.

I've never experienced that in the 2 years that mine has been removed.