[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

100% agree that, generally speaking, a more competent driver uses less brakes. And 100% agree that stability and traction control contribute to heat soak if you are activating the systems. I personally like to turn all the nannies off. Nothing wrong with leaving them on. The ZL1 is an expensive car. I'm new to the ZL1 platform, and to be candid, I am working my way down the ladder from full nannies to full off. I'm taking my time learning the car. After two track events on my first set of DTC70f / DTC60r, the rears are worn more than the front. I attribute that to the nannies silently correcting my attitude.

A slight correction and a suggestion:
TC doesnt use brakes to manage tire overslip on exits, but Stabilitrak sure does use them to manage over yaw situations to prevent excessive angles between a car's direction of travel and steering wheel.

Camaro does not benefit from running staggered pad compounds F vs R. Its braking balance is designed for the same torque F and R. If you run higher torque up front this in effect with move brake bias to the F and hence will induce more understeer on entries. There is zero benefit in doing it and it will unnecessarily over work the F brakes as R will be doing less work.
The fact the R wear faster is most likely due to Stabilitrak engaging too much, but could also be due to different pad ware rates between the two.

Zero issue running nannies to learn and enjoy the car.
Having said that, it does make a difference what mode one is running in. Id suggest PTM Sport 1 vs default at start up for example. If you havent had a chance to read it yet, take a look at the sticky above titled PTM Modes Demystifed. Read the very first post in that thread as it summarizes it all.

Cheers and enjoy your car!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

Is there some chemical reaction going on to create more heat with race pads?
If the clamping force between the rotor and pad is the same, the heat generation is the same. Race pads will activate ABS sooner, and more consistently, lap after lap. That's why lake braking is so much more effective, and fun, on race pads. And that's what causes higher temps, which leads to more heat soak. Said another way, you need less pedal pressure with race pads to generate the same braking performance as OEM.

I use high torque pads on all my track cars. Have for 15 years. Probably tried very brand under the sun. No fancy aftermarket cooling or parts. Just good, fresh fluid.

As for catching cars in the corners, just because you late brake doesn't mean you are not also able to trail brake. Good technique involves both. It's not one or the other. I would agree that your consistency to trail brake after a late braking event is lower. But if you get it right, the rewards are huge. And isn't that why we are doing this?

Yes: every thermal event usually also involves a chemical event.

If you decelerate an equal mass in a shorter distance you will produce more heat.

Nobody here has any heat issues with lower torque stock pads. Virtually everyone that upgrades to a high torque pads ends up with cooked pistons, brown calipers and sometimes cooked brake fluid. But like i said before, a type of venue will play a role. Also how much somebody pushes the car and what lap times they get will play a role.

Ive never said that late braking doesnt allow for trail braking. To the contrary. Trail braking is about moving the whole sequence of braking later and deeper on the entry. So very much part of effective "late braking" while maintaining proper balance and managing weight transfer for as quick a rotation as possible.
That's why a *smooth* initial bite, excellent modulation capability and release is a preferred characteristic of any TRUE race pad. Let's not confuse what resellers market as "race pads" to a Joe Public vs what race teams use.
Ditto caliper designs, rotors, cooling, etc. Cheers!

[Pcormier66]

Another example. Take a ZL1 with OEM pads and apply enough pedal force to activate abs at a defined speed. Now swap pads to race. With the same pedal force you will activate abs sooner. That’s what is creating more heat in that specific use case. And because it activates sooner, your stopping distance is shorter. Once into abs, both systems are performing the same. Take a ZL1 with oem and run consistent laps. Swap to race and try and replicate that lap. I guarantee you will blow the braking zone, slow the car more and have a lower entry speed.

Now I surrender

[Pcormier66]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

Another example. Take a ZL1 with OEM pads and apply enough pedal force to activate abs at a defined speed. Now swap pads to race. With the same pedal force you will activate abs sooner. That’s what is creating more heat in that specific use case. And because it activates sooner, your stopping distance is shorter. Once into abs, both systems are performing the same. Take a ZL1 with oem and run consistent laps. Swap to race and try and replicate that lap. I guarantee you will blow the braking zone, slow the car more and have a lower entry speed.

Now I surrender

Correction. You won’t slow the car any more that OEM, you will just reach your desired speed at turn in sooner. Which results in turning in earlier, which puts you in the weeds at track out. The simplest method to fix your early turn in, with race pads, is to start your braking event later. That later brake application is possible because the coefficient of friction is higher with a race pad. And the later you wait to brake, the longer you are on throttle, which results in higher speed at the point you begin braking.

Now I really surrender.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

Correction. You won’t slow the car any more that OEM, you will just reach your desired speed at turn in sooner. Which results in turning in earlier, which puts you in the weeds at track out. The simplest method to fix your early turn in, with race pads, is to start your braking event later. That later brake application is possible because the coefficient of friction is higher with a race pad. And the later you wait to brake, the longer you are on throttle, which results in higher speed at the point you begin braking.

Now I really surrender.

Before you fully surrender, just what is your definition of a "race pad"? Higher mu?

[Pcormier66]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Before you fully surrender, just what is your definition of a "race pad"? Higher mu?

At its most basic, it doesn’t matter. It could be any pad that has a higher coefficient of friction at a given moment in the braking event, all else being equal. The higher torque pad will decelerate the car faster at the same pedal pressure, creating more heat and a shorter stopping distance. The natural compensation is to then brake later to execute the corner in the theoretical fastest line. That results in higher speeds before braking. Again, more heat. I can guarantee that when people switch to race pads, they are braking later because they can decelerate faster at a given pedal application, to achieve the optimum speed at turn in for the theoretical best line. With OEM pads they are, carrying less speed, braking earlier and decelerating at a slower rate. Thus less heat. Throw in any of the infinite number of variables and the results are different. But the basic principle is the same.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-SRF-R...s%2C251&sr=8-2

Thanks!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by NickyRacerBoy

I run stock SS1LE ducting DTC70 front DTC60 rear Racing Brakes stainless steel pistons with Castrol brake fluid with ZERO fad. Not to tune my own horn but if I am not having issues you should be fine. Change to another caliper brand and your more likely to run in issues.

Haha well I respectfully disagree, it depends on the car, the track and the driver and the format of the open lapping (how long the sessions are and how long the breaks between the sessions are). In this case all of these variables are different

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Pads aren't the issue here... heat dissipation is. Especially in your case. Most of the replies are from getns in SS 1LE, not ZL1. Driven correctly you will carry more speed between corners. Which needs to be scrubbed off. Chevy did a good job with the brakes on these cars. They are sized right for OEM or similar compound pads. Get too aggressive with pad choice and the pedal hits the floor. Outside of going to a good brake fluid such as SRF and possibly stainless steel brake lines. I'd certainly not run an aggressive aftermarket pad on a ZL1/ZLE unless I went to a larger rotor such as AP/Essex. A side benefit of AP/Essex is thicker pads which are a heat sink that aids with cooling. For those of us that aren't very aggressive on the brakes (not me) your mileage may vary with the above comments.

Also, don't get too wrapped up in late braking. May seem faster but if you are not trail braking and releasing near the apex. You might be over braking and losing significant time doing so. For instance, if you find you are back on the throttle before the apex, chances are you just over slowed, and lost time.

I agree that too many replies are based on different drivers with different cars on different tracks. As for the pad friction vs length of time braking debate, I can’t comment because I really don’t know much about that.

I have a feeling that the late braking I do is more because I know the track better than my competition and am willing to drive more aggressively. It’s not everything, but it’s something

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

As for catching cars in the corners, just because you late brake doesn't mean you are not also able to trail brake. Good technique involves both. It's not one or the other. I would agree that your consistency to trail brake after a late braking event is lower. But if you get it right, the rewards are huge. And isn't that why we are doing this?

Yes! Also totally Agree!

[GunMetalGrey]

Put the SS1LE brake cooling deflectors on today and also took off the metal shields covering the bottom inside surface of the rotors

Next up will buy battery operated fans, titanium shims and Castrol SRF!

[Blast2hell]

Boiled my brakes twice at Sebring, here for the learn.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I agree that too many replies are based on different drivers with different cars on different tracks. As for the pad friction vs length of time braking debate, I can’t comment because I really don’t know much about that.

I have a feeling that the late braking I do is more because I know the track better than my competition and am willing to drive more aggressively. It’s not everything, but it’s something

I would agree with you second par completely. Familiarity with a track, high degree of comfort with the car's dynamics and good braking technique will count for much more than type of brake pads (as long as the pads themselves dont fade, or disappear wear wise).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Pcormier66

At its most basic, it doesn’t matter. It could be any pad that has a higher coefficient of friction at a given moment in the braking event, all else being equal. The higher torque pad will decelerate the car faster at the same pedal pressure, creating more heat and a shorter stopping distance. The natural compensation is to then brake later to execute the corner in the theoretical fastest line. That results in higher speeds before braking. Again, more heat. I can guarantee that when people switch to race pads, they are braking later because they can decelerate faster at a given pedal application, to achieve the optimum speed at turn in for the theoretical best line. With OEM pads they are, carrying less speed, braking earlier and decelerating at a slower rate. Thus less heat. Throw in any of the infinite number of variables and the results are different. But the basic principle is the same.

The corner entry speed has little to do with brake pads, but much to do with how much grip given tires (and aero if present) will provide and to what extend a driver can maintain best balance regarding weight transfer to get the most out of all 4 contact patches. This is where effective trail braking comes in (including moving the whole braking sequence forward closer to apex aka "late braking").

Also, low/medium torque pads provide easier modulation of brakes during the entry phase, as a driver has a wider band of pressure available to them before locking up (or inducing ABS), or over slowing. And hence it is easier to vary pedal pressure and achieve better results balance and hence pace wise.

What matters much more for lap times is not where threshold braking begins, but how much SPEED is carried from turn in to apex. Because, one will spend much more time in that phase vs the former.

If one reads brake and brake pad descriptions by manufacturers who provide hardware to pro series (vs resellers focused on retail market), it is easily evident that: high torque pads apply only to full racing slicks and full aero cars (prototype, open wheel types) where tire grip is insane in comparison to any street track car, hence a lock up is unlikely.

Smooth initial application (vs on/off switch offered by many high torque pads) is seen as a *must have* quality for any pro GT type cars, including those on harder spec skicks etc, basically cars with less grip vs full aero cars.

PAGID has been providing pads to many pro GT level teams incl IMSA, LeMans, Porsche Cup, etc etc. Check their mu tables.

PCF has also been providing pads (and whole braking assemblies) to top level series including IndyCar, Conti series, IndyLights, etc. Bottom line, they know brakes. This is how they describe a couple of their pads and their intended applications (shortened version to make a point):

"08 Compound gained immediate favor in Endurance Sportscar and GT racing due to its performance in applications where smooth initial bite is a must"

"11 Compound... The result is ultra-smooth braking with reduced wheel locking at the end of a stop. 11 can be used in a large spectrum of temperature ranges...It is ideal for use in medium- or low-grip situations such as hard spec tires or light cars with no downforce.

Basically, all pro pad manufacturers recommend specific pads to pro teams based on: venue, tires, downforce, duration, heat management of related components, etc.
You will never seen them pushing a highest mu pad as "the best". Because, based on the application it may be "the worst"!

Unfortunately, it seems the current retail marketing has discovered that high mu = "race" marketing = sales.
(And not only pads, but after market "race" BBK, enhanced "race" components, "race" cooling solutions, etc as now ppl have to deal with HIGHER HEAT.

As such, i am sure some folks are spending thousands ONLY becase of a pad choice. Ridiculous proposition in my book anyway.

Imo running extreme level torque pads on a non aero car with street (or R comp) tires on, with brake components not designed for, nor capable of dealing with high temp "sweet spots" of such pads is counterproductive on many levels.

But, we live in a free world and this is supposed to be fun, so i will retire from this subject now. Let's just not confuse retail marketing of "race" vs real racing.

Cheers!