[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

How do you arrive at this theory. The GTPP2 was faster than the 1LE in the LL, and I would guess a 16 GT350 with TP, or a 17 and up GT350 would be faster than a PP2, maybe I am wrong.

Did you see this review of the PP2?

Ford Mustang GT: 2018 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car Contender

Although our Best Driver's Car competition is by no means a numbers game, the 2018 Mustang GT Perf Pack 2 really needed to smack down its archnemesis, the Camaro SS 1LE that finished fourth here in 2016. The Mustang, unfortunately, missed that bogey, subjectively and objectively.

First the objective: A lap-time gap of 0.65 second at WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca is a lifetime. It even trails the Chevy by 0.3 second on our tiny figure-eight course. Time lost between the corners as a result of the Mustang's 35-lb-ft torque deficit is easily forgiven for its fabulous soundtrack.

Randy Pobst felt the 'Stang is "not balanced like the Camaro. There's a little too much oversteer in the entry phase and when I go to power. I would put a little more front anti-roll bar in it." He was also vexed by the stability control, which, although disabled, seemed to resurrect after a lap or two.

In the braking department, however, Kim Reynolds gushed, "When did the Mustang get such great brakes?"—a sentiment backed up by a Camaro-matching 94-foot stop from 60 mph. But Pobst and Chris Walton wished for initial bite that was a bit less abrupt.

Subjectively, Pobst loved the Mustang on the smooth track—but was surprised to learn the Audi TT RS ran quicker.

On our bumpy Route 198 hill climb, the rest of the jury was underwhelmed by the Ford. A balky high-friction shifter and too-roomy seat drew near universal disdain, as did the front end's propensity to follow ruts.

The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 steamrollers are immensely sticky, good for 1.06 g on our skidpad, but they send vague, confidence-sapping messages to the helm—especially when transitioning into a curve, before the chassis settles into the corner. Many drivers reported making constant midcorner course corrections—especially in corners that provoked bump steer.

Scott Evans summarized the staff's sentiments: "I was hoping for a budget Shelby, and what I got was a better GT."

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford...car-contender/

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Did you see this review of the PP2?

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by newmoon

How do you arrive at this theory. The GTPP2 was faster than the 1LE in the LL, and I would guess a 16 GT350 with TP, or a 17 and up GT350 would be faster than a PP2, maybe I am wrong.

The GT PP2 is an embarrassment to American cars. What a joke! When German car owners say American cars can only can set fast lap times because of oversized and inappropriate tires and the car's chassis and suspension has deficient engineering... this is the prime example of that. 305 square Cup2s on a car that can't even drive on a track without overheating, that's some ridiculous BS right there. PP2 makes me look down on Ford more than I already did.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

The GT PP2 is an embarrassment to American cars. What a joke! When German car owners say American cars can only can set fast lap times because of oversized and inappropriate tires and the car's chassis and suspension has deficient engineering... this is the prime example of that. 305 square Cup2s on a car that can't even drive on a track without overheating, that's some ridiculous BS right there. PP2 makes me look down on Ford more than I already did.

I agree with you on the first part, the PP2 should be better, but it is working with an inferior chassis compared to the Gen 6 Camaro.

I do not buy into the German cars having the better Chassis and suspension though. I came out of a 16' M3 into my SS 1LE and the SS 1LE kills the M3 in all of those areas by a good margin.

My M3's rear-end was all over the place and the rebound damping was a joke. The chassis could not even handle the stock power levels and thus they made the traction/stability controls on it SUPER conservative and would fight you all the way. I had to upgrade to Ohlin coilovers to get that car to feel confident and behave, and even then the traction was still lacking, even with extreme performance rated tires on it, and the stability control system was still a liability. Plus, I had a rough riding car now with the coilovers.

Now, some German cars can do it right, my Audi TTRS was dialed in chassis and suspension wise, albeit with understeer, but it was well planted from the factory, but then again it also had MRC like the SS 1LE.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Did you see this review of the PP2?

Not to pile on but, don't forget these snippets from the main portion of the article (in regards to the PP2):

Rt. 198:
"Thanks to the super-sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires that come with the Performance Pack 2, the Mustang GT has a ton of mechanical grip. But it feels clumsier and less composed than the Chevy Camaro SS 1LE that impressed us so much in 2016. "It's hard to have a lot of confidence in this car," Mark Rechtin grimaces."

Mazda Laguna Seca:
"Although it's much happier on the smooth surface of Laguna Seca than on choppy Route 198, chassis balance is also an issue with the Ford Mustang GT, which Randy found oversteered to a fault on corner entry. The Performance Pack 2 is designed to get the Mustang GT on par with a 1LE-equipped Camaro SS, but the Racepak data reveals the brutal truth: Despite a 1:38.42 lap time that made it the second-quickest Mustang ever around Laguna Seca, it's still 0.65 second slower than the Chevy."

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I agree with you on the first part, the PP2 should be better, but it is working with an inferior chassis compared to the Gen 6 Camaro.

I do not buy into the German cars having the better Chassis and suspension though. I came out of a 16' M3 into my SS 1LE and the SS 1LE kills the M3 in all of those areas by a good margin.

My M3's rear-end was all over the place and the rebound damping was a joke. The chassis could not even handle the stock power levels and thus they made the traction/stability controls on it SUPER conservative and would fight you all the way. I had to upgrade to Ohlin coilovers to get that car to feel confident and behave, and even then the traction was still lacking, even with extreme performance rated tires on it, and the stability control system was still a liability. Plus, I had a rough riding car now with the coilovers.

Now, some German cars can do it right, my Audi TTRS was dialed in chassis and suspension wise, albeit with understeer, but it was well planted from the factory, but then again it also had MRC like the SS 1LE.

TTRS is also a transverse mounted engine with a FWD bias based AWD system.



LL isn't a good comparison - different year, different drivers, condition, etc. No I won't claim any SLE lap time over a PP2 until they meet face to face. I assume them to be very close in best overall lap time, with the PP2 then off to the pits for a cool down, while the SLE continues to lap. If that's a win in anyway, I would like to hear why newmoon.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I do not buy into the German cars having the better Chassis and suspension though.

Not vs the GM Alpha but the Ford GT PP2 is proof that those claims are true wrt the Mustang. It's an awkward and pathetic attempt to keep up with the SS 1LE and they would have been better off not trying to make the Mustang into something it's clearly not suited for.

[rfopt]

Car and Driver's review of the PP2 mentioned a similar comment to what Motor Trend mentioned; that even though it is very accomplished on the track they prefer the SS 1LE's handling dynamics more.

The PP2 reviews so far seem to be yet another indicator of the results of how much went into the development of the GT350's suspension/chassis to differentiate it from the other Mustangs as mostly everyone loves the way they drive. Yet it seems that all Camaro models get nothing but raves regarding its handling.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Not vs the GM Alpha but the Ford GT PP2 is proof that those claims are true wrt the Mustang. It's an awkward and pathetic attempt to keep up with the SS 1LE and they would have been better off not trying to make the Mustang into something it's clearly not suited for.

Not sure I agree that Ford shouldn't have even tried to improve the GT...

I cross-shopped the GT PP2 and 2SS 1LE, and obviously preferred the Chevy, but I gave the PP2 some serious consideration. It's not like it's light years behind the SS 1LE. They're probably pretty close in the hands of amateurs at track days - or do you think otherwise?

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Not sure I agree that Ford shouldn't have even tried to improve the GT...

I cross-shopped the GT PP2 and 2SS 1LE, and obviously preferred the Chevy, but I gave the PP2 some serious consideration. It's not like it's light years behind the SS 1LE. They're probably pretty close in the hands of amateurs at track days - or do you think otherwise?

I think the tires are a joke. Nobody who buys a GT can afford them, if they could they'd have bought a different car. They simply don't match the car and the only reason they are there is to get closer to 1LE lap times.

The car also overheats on track and Ford says it's not intended for track use. Yet it has Cup2 tires.

Finally, all reports are stating the car doesn't handle well and isn't confidence inspiring at speed.

Now, the cars may be evenly matched for a lap or 2 around a track but the tire life and overheating and handling issues make it a far larger difference than lap times might suggest.

It just seems to me it was a total marketing stunt by Ford, and not a serious attempt to make a car that's actually good for their customers.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

The GT PP2 is an embarrassment to American cars. What a joke! When German car owners say American cars can only can set fast lap times because of oversized and inappropriate tires and the car's chassis and suspension has deficient engineering... this is the prime example of that. 305 square Cup2s on a car that can't even drive on a track without overheating, that's some ridiculous BS right there. PP2 makes me look down on Ford more than I already did.

I know the 1LE is great we can tell by the overwhelming number of them for sale in this forum shortly after initial purchase. Yes the PP2 should have come with coolers no arguement from me.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I know the 1LE is great we can tell by the overwhelming number of them for sale in this forum shortly after initial purchase. Yes the PP2 should have come with coolers no arguement from me.

Lol, seriously? Same with every performance car, there's a ton of reasons for it that have nothing to do with the cars themselves.

On the coolers, Ford hobbled the car so it wouldn't get too close to the 350s, but in doing so they made the PP2 a total joke and a bad deal for anyone buying it.

It's a marketing stunt done at the expense of their own customers.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Lol, seriously? Same with every performance car, there's a ton of reasons for it that have nothing to do with the cars themselves.

On the coolers, Ford hobbled the car so it wouldn't get too close to the 350s, but in doing so they made the PP2 a total joke and a bad deal for anyone buying it.

It's a marketing stunt done at the expense of their own customers.

13 1LEs for sale on the For Sale forum 1st page alone. No problem there right? I guess only 1LE buyers have issues which force them to rather quickly sell at a much higher rate than other Camaro trim levels.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

13 1LEs for sale on the For Sale forum 1st page alone. No problem there right? I guess only 1LE buyers have issues which force them to rather quickly sell at a much higher rate than other Camaro trim levels.

Careful...somebody might wander over to Mustang6 and count Shelby listings.