[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Do we really need to have this argument again. Unless you can produce a review in which the ZL1 was tested and ran a quarter mile time better than 11:00s it hasn't beaten the HC.

11:03 is the time to beat.

Cars.com doesn't use standard atmospheric data for corrections on their times. They get a car and run it then what time they get is what they report. If it happens to be -DA then the time looks great. If not the time not so good. Wasn't it cars.com that had a M6 SS being faster than the A10 GT?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

2.5 seconds at Nurburgring, and 1 second at VIR is a lot to overcome tho. And exactly how much faster is it gonna be over the 350R? Will it be able to make up that kind of time with the weight it will have and at the price it'll be at? And if it just beats eeks out a victory by a small amount, will that performance be worth the price? And then what about the ZLE? I highly doubt one car is going to be able to take down the RE and the ZLE while remaining competitively priced. That would put it on the level of the Z06, ZR1, and the GTR and look at where those cars are priced at and their weight. A 4200 pound Mustang won't be doing that for $70K, lol!!

Not sure how much faster, but I doubt they would be happy with only 2.5 seconds faster at Nurburgring. I agree that if the GT500 weighs 4,200 lbs it will be a very, very tall order to beat the ZLE. That's why I think the Ford Performance and Shelby engineers will have designed the track pack car to come in under 4,000 lbs. Like I said, I'm guessing the track package will be around 3,960 lbs (240 lbs heavier than the GT350R), and the standard GT500 at 4,050 lbs. That's about 100 lbs heavier than the ZLE and ZL1, respectively.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Cars.com doesn't use standard atmospheric data for corrections on their times. They get a car and run it then what time they get is what they report. If it happens to be -DA then the time looks great. If not the time not so good. Wasn't it cars.com that had a M6 SS being faster than the A10 GT?

I don't care about any correction factor excuses bs, your time is what the scoreboard says. The time is on the scoreboard for all to see. Show me another similar review that has a better time than this and I will agree the ZL1 is faster.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Do we really need to have this argument again. Unless you can produce a review in which the ZL1 was tested and ran a quarter mile time better than 11:00s it hasn't beaten the HC.

11:03 is the time to beat.

I would love to see one of these reviewers spend as much time in a ZL1 as they do in Hellcats and Mustangs. It seems to me that in this test, they spent the entire day running it and trying different modes and altering tire pressures etc...just like Evans had to do with the 18 GT. However it doesn't seem like these guys take much time to test out the ZL1. We have plenty of guys who say they did 11 flat and 10.9 in a stock ZL1. So it would be nice if for once a mag or instrumented tester would take a ZL1 out for an entire day in ideal weather and see what it can do. Until then...it still remains a fact the when the ZL1 was launched it was close to the absolute best time that anyone could muster after an entire day in a Hellcat. However it straight up murders the Hellcat around a track. So which car is more of a triple threat? The Hellcat that beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths and gets murdered around a track or the ZL1 which loses by 3 tenths and murders everything else everywhere else? Throw the GT350(R) in the mix and it can't beat anything at anything other than being the most expensive. And lets not forget that the Hellcat had minimum $10K markups when it arrived at dealerships. Just like the Shelby did. So out of all three of these cars, which one is the best? Hands down it is the ZL1.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Considering the current ZL1 M6 can't even beat the previous (2013-2014) GT500 M6 in the 1/4 mile, Ford has been there all along at the strip vs Chevy. The A10 ZL1 is a tick faster e.t. stock for stock...but still slower trap speed than the 200 mph 3.31 geared '13 GT500. Add back the traditional gearing (3.55s or 3.73s), and the '13-14 GT500 would be in Hellcat (very low 11s) territory on the stock tires (but no longer able to reach 202 mph).

Well the M6 ZL1 was not built by GM to be a straight line car which is why they intentionally programmed it as such. You can try to discredit the M6 Z all you want but the fact remains that it does exactly what it was built to do. Plus, the 13-14 GT500 had more HP, less weight, and a solid rear axle. Yet with all that it is only a tick faster than the heavier less powerful ZL1 with IRS in a straight line. So what would happen if both those cars made it out to a track? WHich one would be faster?

The problem with all of you Mustang guys is that you try to discredit the ZL1 and you all sound silly. In every case where the ZL1 loses it ain't by much. And it is pitted against cars that are built specifically for straight line work. And even then you have to cherry pick ONE specific test or you have to pick the M6 Z to prove your point. But in every category where the Z wins, it absolutely destroys it's competition. By today's standard, everything that challenges the ZL1 is nothing more than a one trick pony. GT350R, wins nothing even tho it is specifically built for the track...and catches on fire. Hellcat, wins only at the quarter mile and gets trounced around a track. ZL1, only 1 car has a tested time in any category anywhere performance related that is better than it. And the Z dominates every other category easily. Even when this new GT500 comes out it probably won't beat the ZLE or the ZL1 around a track. And despite Ford's claims, I doubt it'll beat the RE. So again, failure. Because it won't hold top honors anywhere despite having all this time to do so. The only way is if Ford severely underrates it or if they come out with like 825 HP.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Considering the current ZL1 M6 can't even beat the previous (2013-2014) GT500 M6 in the 1/4 mile, Ford has been there all along at the strip vs Chevy. The A10 ZL1 is a tick faster e.t. stock for stock...but still slower trap speed than the 200 mph 3.31 geared '13 GT500. Add back the traditional gearing (3.55s or 3.73s), and the '13-14 GT500 would be in Hellcat (very low 11s) territory on the stock tires (but no longer able to reach 202 mph).

Much respect for the last generation GT500! When the 662 HP version came out, it blew away the competition! It had a huge wow factor. It really stood out as something over the top. Yes, it wasn't perfect, that's not the point. It went above and beyond. So far above and beyond Ford was the first to REALLY reach the threashold where putting the power down and cooling it became a bigger issue than producing power in the first place. (Yes, these factors were always in play, but were not nearly as important as they are today). So, even though you can criticize it for not putting the power down that well with the solid rear axle, or for overheating on a road course, those issues are because this was a quantum leap forward in HP! It had the wow factor.

The ZL1 went above and beyond because the ZL1/GT500 formual was (in the last genration) a fast in a straight line car with all the creature comforts. Turns weren't really part of the equation, there were seperate cars for that (GT350 and Z/28). The ZL1 was on par with the Hellcat, and blew away the GT350R on a road course. That was the first that the pony cars could do it all in one package without overheating on a roadcourse. Hell, the GT350 was having major overheating issues, and it wasn't even FI!! Yes, it wasn't perfect, again that's not the point as with the last gen GT500. It had the wow factor.

The Hellcat went above and beyond with another big HP jump. The Demon did that and more with the Demon crate, race fuel, wheelies, chilling the intercooler with the A/C, etc. The GT350 went above and beyond with the flat plane crank and carbon fiber wheels. Again, none of them were perfect, but, they all had some big wow factor involved that got us all excited and talking about it. And the issues they all faced were a direct result of the inovations and boundaries that they were smashing through, not as much screwing up something that had been done time and time again.

Now on to this gen's GT500 that is soon to arive. How is this vehicle going above and beyond? Is it going to give a big flashy HP number that folks haven't seen yet in a pony car? I don't think so, the Demon has that locked up for now. Well, how about the 1/4 mile? Well, the Demon has that locked up for now. Okay, the Demon is no longer in production, well how about crushing the RedEye in HP? What about a road course? Is this new GT500 going to blow away the ZL1 1LE on a road course? Probably not.

I believe that it will be a great vehicle none the less, and I'm not trying to say that folks shouldn't like/love/want/buy it. They should. But I just don't see the big WOW factor like the last gen GT500 when it bumped things up to 662 HP, or the ZL1 that became the first triple threat, or the Hellcat , or the Demon, or the GT350, etc.

All those cars we said at the time "Wow, did you hear about the new XXX that YYY is coming out with? It's going to have ZZZ, and be able to do LMNOP! Holy crap, that's never been done before!"

The roadmap here for this new GT500 has been done before (triple threat). So, if it's not going to inovate something new, or make a quantum leap in HP numbers, it better make a quantum leap in performance metrics. Which I don't think it will. Who knows, maybe I will get a pleasant surprise? Maybe this thing will just blow everyone away when it gets out on the track. I sure hope so.

If I were able to make the decisions on this, I would have taken the Voodoo, and fixed it's issues first, even if that meant backing off displacement a little (like back to 5.0 or 4.7) to increase reliability, then twin turboing that thing. If they went with the Ferrari type fireing order and went twin intake to match the twin turbos, we would be talking a big wow factor right there, let alone the HP numbers it would impress us with. I know, I know... that is a lot to ask for. But, isn't a 5.2L FPC a bit much to ask for? Isn't doing wheel stands a bit much to ask for? Aren't carbon fiber wheels a bit much to ask for?

But right now, really the only potential wow factor I see is price and ADM.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I would love to see one of these reviewers spend as much time in a ZL1 as they do in Hellcats and Mustangs. It seems to me that in this test, they spent the entire day running it and trying different modes and altering tire pressures etc...just like Evans had to do with the 18 GT. However it doesn't seem like these guys take much time to test out the ZL1. We have plenty of guys who say they did 11 flat and 10.9 in a stock ZL1. So it would be nice if for once a mag or instrumented tester would take a ZL1 out for an entire day in ideal weather and see what it can do. Until then...it still remains a fact the when the ZL1 was launched it was close to the absolute best time that anyone could muster after an entire day in a Hellcat. However it straight up murders the Hellcat around a track. So which car is more of a triple threat? The Hellcat that beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths and gets murdered around a track or the ZL1 which loses by 3 tenths and murders everything else everywhere else? Throw the GT350(R) in the mix and it can't beat anything at anything other than being the most expensive. And lets not forget that the Hellcat had minimum $10K markups when it arrived at dealerships. Just like the Shelby did. So out of all three of these cars, which one is the best? Hands down it is the ZL1.

Well the M6 ZL1 was not built by GM to be a straight line car which is why they intentionally programmed it as such. You can try to discredit the M6 Z all you want but the fact remains that it does exactly what it was built to do. Plus, the 13-14 GT500 had more HP, less weight, and a solid rear axle. Yet with all that it is only a tick faster than the heavier less powerful ZL1 with IRS in a straight line. So what would happen if both those cars made it out to a track? WHich one would be faster?

The problem with all of you Mustang guys is that you try to discredit the ZL1 and you all sound silly. In every case where the ZL1 loses it ain't by much. And it is pitted against cars that are built specifically for straight line work. And even then you have to cherry pick ONE specific test or you have to pick the M6 Z to prove your point. But in every category where the Z wins, it absolutely destroys it's competition. By today's standard, everything that challenges the ZL1 is nothing more than a one trick pony. GT350R, wins nothing even tho it is specifically built for the track...and catches on fire. Hellcat, wins only at the quarter mile and gets trounced around a track. ZL1, only 1 car has a tested time in any category anywhere performance related that is better than it. And the Z dominates every other category easily. Even when this new GT500 comes out it probably won't beat the ZLE or the ZL1 around a track. And despite Ford's claims, I doubt it'll beat the RE. So again, failure. Because it won't hold top honors anywhere despite having all this time to do so. The only way is if Ford severely underrates it or if they come out with like 825 HP.

You put way too much weight in the track thing. Most owners of these cars will never visit a track, even if they did a tiny fraction of owners will be able to ring any of these cars out to the point where you are exploiting all of its ability.

While this track talk is interesting conversation it is not real world and you know this as well as I do. These cars will be measured on the street and strip, and in the general pleasure of cruising. So to answer your above bolded question presently the HC but soon the GT500.

[Fraxum]

We can argue about which one is faster dead stock. But to me the GT500 is the best looking by a lot. Especially without the huge spoiler. Bad ass.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You put way too much weight in the track thing. Most owners of these cars will never visit a track, even if they did a tiny fraction of owners will be able to ring any of these cars out to the point where you are exploiting all of its ability.

While this track talk is interesting conversation it is not real world and you know this as well as I do. These cars will be measured on the street and strip, and in the general pleasure of cruising. So to answer your above bolded question presently the HC but soon the GT500.

And how many people actually drag race these cars? The vast majority won't ever see a drag strip. So what makes one more important than the other? If you ask me, you put way too much weight in straight line performance and I believe that is only because you feel you can discredit the ZL1 there. Ok so it isn't faster than the 707 HP Hellcat (based off one test you dug up) or the 797 HP RE. Looking at the performance specs and that the ZL1 is tuned to not be specific for any one metric, can you really discredit it for not being able to beat a much more powerful car in an area that that car was specifically built for? No. But you try your best to criticize it anyway regardless of how unrealistic it is to do so. Your criticism to me is based off a dislike of the ZL1. Or could it be that you are trying to troll us in that respect? Or perhaps you fully do realize how amazing the ZL1 is but you just don't want to admit it because you're a Mustang guy. With all due respect, I think it is some combination of the three. Because you laud and exalt the Hellcat but only when it comes to quarter mile times and only the auto equipped Hellcat and only in comparison to the ZL1, lol!! But when talk goes to anything other than quarter mile runs you switch all of a sudden and talk sales.

To me, quarter mile runs were the thing 5 years ago. Things have changed now. Not many people want a car that is only good for the quarter mile unless it has an atrocious amount of HP like the HC and RE. People want everything for their money. They want a car that can corner, blast off, brake well, won't overheat, comes fully optioned, and can be had for a reasonable price. And there is only 1 car that fits into that category...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can argue about which one is faster dead stock. But to me the GT500 is the best looking by a lot. Especially without the huge spoiler. Bad ass.

I still don't like the blacked out bumper thing. Not my cup of tequila. Other parts of the car are spot-on. The GT350 is the best looking modern Mustang in my humble opinion.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Not sure how much faster, but I doubt they would be happy with only 2.5 seconds faster at Nurburgring. I agree that if the GT500 weighs 4,200 lbs it will be a very, very tall order to beat the ZLE. That's why I think the Ford Performance and Shelby engineers will have designed the track pack car to come in under 4,000 lbs. Like I said, I'm guessing the track package will be around 3,960 lbs (240 lbs heavier than the GT350R), and the standard GT500 at 4,050 lbs. That's about 100 lbs heavier than the ZLE and ZL1, respectively.

If so then it will sacrifice some options. But I'm just not seeing it. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Much respect for the last generation GT500! When the 662 HP version came out, it blew away the competition! It had a huge wow factor. It really stood out as something over the top. Yes, it wasn't perfect, that's not the point. It went above and beyond. So far above and beyond Ford was the first to REALLY reach the threashold where putting the power down and cooling it became a bigger issue than producing power in the first place. (Yes, these factors were always in play, but were not nearly as important as they are today). So, even though you can criticize it for not putting the power down that well with the solid rear axle, or for overheating on a road course, those issues are because this was a quantum leap forward in HP! It had the wow factor.

The ZL1 went above and beyond because the ZL1/GT500 formual was (in the last genration) a fast in a straight line car with all the creature comforts. Turns weren't really part of the equation, there were seperate cars for that (GT350 and Z/28). The ZL1 was on par with the Hellcat, and blew away the GT350R on a road course. That was the first that the pony cars could do it all in one package without overheating on a roadcourse. Hell, the GT350 was having major overheating issues, and it wasn't even FI!! Yes, it wasn't perfect, again that's not the point as with the last gen GT500. It had the wow factor.

The Hellcat went above and beyond with another big HP jump. The Demon did that and more with the Demon crate, race fuel, wheelies, chilling the intercooler with the A/C, etc. The GT350 went above and beyond with the flat plane crank and carbon fiber wheels. Again, none of them were perfect, but, they all had some big wow factor involved that got us all excited and talking about it. And the issues they all faced were a direct result of the inovations and boundaries that they were smashing through, not as much screwing up something that had been done time and time again.

Now on to this gen's GT500 that is soon to arive. How is this vehicle going above and beyond? Is it going to give a big flashy HP number that folks haven't seen yet in a pony car? I don't think so, the Demon has that locked up for now. Well, how about the 1/4 mile? Well, the Demon has that locked up for now. Okay, the Demon is no longer in production, well how about crushing the RedEye in HP? What about a road course? Is this new GT500 going to blow away the ZL1 1LE on a road course? Probably not.

I believe that it will be a great vehicle none the less, and I'm not trying to say that folks shouldn't like/love/want/buy it. They should. But I just don't see the big WOW factor like the last gen GT500 when it bumped things up to 662 HP, or the ZL1 that became the first triple threat, or the Hellcat , or the Demon, or the GT350, etc.

All those cars we said at the time "Wow, did you hear about the new XXX that YYY is coming out with? It's going to have ZZZ, and be able to do LMNOP! Holy crap, that's never been done before!"

The roadmap here for this new GT500 has been done before (triple threat). So, if it's not going to inovate something new, or make a quantum leap in HP numbers, it better make a quantum leap in performance metrics. Which I don't think it will. Who knows, maybe I will get a pleasant surprise? Maybe this thing will just blow everyone away when it gets out on the track. I sure hope so.

If I were able to make the decisions on this, I would have taken the Voodoo, and fixed it's issues first, even if that meant backing off displacement a little (like back to 5.0 or 4.7) to increase reliability, then twin turboing that thing. If they went with the Ferrari type fireing order and went twin intake to match the twin turbos, we would be talking a big wow factor right there, let alone the HP numbers it would impress us with. I know, I know... that is a lot to ask for. But, isn't a 5.2L FPC a bit much to ask for? Isn't doing wheel stands a bit much to ask for? Aren't carbon fiber wheels a bit much to ask for?

But right now, really the only potential wow factor I see is price and ADM.

Exactly. The only way for the GT500 to do something new and amazing is if it can beat the RE around a track (should be easy) and beat the A10 ZLE in a straight line (should be doable). At least that way they can say that even tho it isn't the best at anything, it also isn't the worst. That should be enough to consider it a win.

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can argue about which one is faster dead stock. But to me the GT500 is the best looking by a lot. Especially without the huge spoiler. Bad ass.

I think it looks good. But the ZL1 is an amazing looking car. The GT500 is newer so that might make it seem like it looks better. But that is all a facade if you ask me. The RE looks the meanest and toughest tho.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I would love to see one of these reviewers spend as much time in a ZL1 as they do in Hellcats and Mustangs. It seems to me that in this test, they spent the entire day running it and trying different modes and altering tire pressures etc...just like Evans had to do with the 18 GT. However it doesn't seem like these guys take much time to test out the ZL1. We have plenty of guys who say they did 11 flat and 10.9 in a stock ZL1. So it would be nice if for once a mag or instrumented tester would take a ZL1 out for an entire day in ideal weather and see what it can do. Until then...it still remains a fact the when the ZL1 was launched it was close to the absolute best time that anyone could muster after an entire day in a Hellcat. However it straight up murders the Hellcat around a track. So which car is more of a triple threat? The Hellcat that beats the ZL1 by 3 tenths and gets murdered around a track or the ZL1 which loses by 3 tenths and murders everything else everywhere else? Throw the GT350(R) in the mix and it can't beat anything at anything other than being the most expensive. And lets not forget that the Hellcat had minimum $10K markups when it arrived at dealerships. Just like the Shelby did. So out of all three of these cars, which one is the best? Hands down it is the ZL1.

Well the M6 ZL1 was not built by GM to be a straight line car which is why they intentionally programmed it as such. You can try to discredit the M6 Z all you want but the fact remains that it does exactly what it was built to do. Plus, the 13-14 GT500 had more HP, less weight, and a solid rear axle. Yet with all that it is only a tick faster than the heavier less powerful ZL1 with IRS in a straight line. So what would happen if both those cars made it out to a track? WHich one would be faster?

The problem with all of you Mustang guys is that you try to discredit the ZL1 and you all sound silly. In every case where the ZL1 loses it ain't by much. And it is pitted against cars that are built specifically for straight line work. And even then you have to cherry pick ONE specific test or you have to pick the M6 Z to prove your point. But in every category where the Z wins, it absolutely destroys it's competition. By today's standard, everything that challenges the ZL1 is nothing more than a one trick pony. GT350R, wins nothing even tho it is specifically built for the track...and catches on fire. Hellcat, wins only at the quarter mile and gets trounced around a track. ZL1, only 1 car has a tested time in any category anywhere performance related that is better than it. And the Z dominates every other category easily. Even when this new GT500 comes out it probably won't beat the ZLE or the ZL1 around a track. And despite Ford's claims, I doubt it'll beat the RE. So again, failure. Because it won't hold top honors anywhere despite having all this time to do so. The only way is if Ford severely underrates it or if they come out with like 825 HP.

Well, to be fair, the '13 GT500 was not a drag car either, it was a top speed car. Ford wanted 200+ mph, that was their goal. Hence the 3.31 gearing and very wide gear spacing. 3rd gear goes to 140 mph for Pete's sake! If it was a drag car they would have put the 3.73s and had tighter gears in the tranny. It has 45 less hp than the hellcat and weighs like 600 lbs less, so it had the power:weight advantage, and the power for high 10s. The original GT500 pushed the envelope with hp for American muscle cars and was the first 200 mph muscle car, giving headway to the hellcat and current ZL1 cars.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

We can argue about which one is faster dead stock. But to me the GT500 is the best looking by a lot. Especially without the huge spoiler. Bad ass.

Agreed. All the current halo muscle cars look good and mean, but the GT500 stands out as the best looking IMO.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And how many people actually drag race these cars? The vast majority won't ever see a drag strip. So what makes one more important than the other? If you ask me, you put way too much weight in straight line performance and I believe that is only because you feel you can discredit the ZL1 there. Ok so it isn't faster than the 707 HP Hellcat (based off one test you dug up) or the 797 HP RE. Looking at the performance specs and that the ZL1 is tuned to not be specific for any one metric, can you really discredit it for not being able to beat a much more powerful car in an area that that car was specifically built for? No. But you try your best to criticize it anyway regardless of how unrealistic it is to do so. Your criticism to me is based off a dislike of the ZL1. Or could it be that you are trying to troll us in that respect? Or perhaps you fully do realize how amazing the ZL1 is but you just don't want to admit it because you're a Mustang guy. With all due respect, I think it is some combination of the three. Because you laud and exalt the Hellcat but only when it comes to quarter mile times and only the auto equipped Hellcat and only in comparison to the ZL1, lol!! But when talk goes to anything other than quarter mile runs you switch all of a sudden and talk sales.

To me, quarter mile runs were the thing 5 years ago. Things have changed now. Not many people want a car that is only good for the quarter mile unless it has an atrocious amount of HP like the HC and RE. People want everything for their money. They want a car that can corner, blast off, brake well, won't overheat, comes fully optioned, and can be had for a reasonable price. And there is only 1 car that fits into that category...

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that many more people drag their cars vs track their cars. And fast 1/4 mile times are definitely still a thing, and always will be. People can accelerate quickly on the steet much more readily than taking advantage of superb handling characteristics. I can accelerate quickly anywhere I go. I can't carve corners anywhere. Mostly, one must go out of their way to do that. Nothing wrong with that of course, but the prevalence of acceleration is and always will be there and available at almost anytime.

And Dodge has sold many a lesser Challengers simply because they made the Hellcat and Demon.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I don't care about any correction factor excuses bs, your time is what the scoreboard says. The time is on the scoreboard for all to see. Show me another similar review that has a better time than this and I will agree the ZL1 is faster.

I'm not making any excuses. I'm just telling you the facts. This the only test that I have seen that has a 15-17 stock hellcat anywhere close to 11.00 and that is why. Not that it really matters anyway. You will cherry pick runs and videos to try and prove your point and that is fine. The new time to beat is the 10.8 Redeye widebody time and I'm skeptical the GT500 will break it. The S550 as a whole has been one disappointing failure after another. I expect to see more of the same in the GT500.