[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A lot of the Mustang guys who trolled this site actually did believe that the GT was on par with the ZL1 and Hellcat and even the Z06. That just shows exactly how good the SS was since the SS was beating the 18+ GTs. The problem is that the 18 GT represented performance on a level that a lot of Mustang guys never seen before. To us it was old news. But they were pretty much drunk with power. I remember every 5 seconds a new YT video was being put up with some guy in a GT flipping out about how fast the GT was and how it had to be as fast if not faster than a Hellcat. No, I am not exaggerating. Ford pushed out a GT into a vendor's hands and they somehow managed a Unicorn 11.8 and that sent the Mustang crowd into a freakin frenzy. There were new members popping up on here like every day and they all were from M6G and they were talking all kinds of shit and bragging, lol!! Ah, the good ole days. So you can't really blame Idaho. It was just a crazy time.

I actually agree with this for the most part. The stock 18+ GT a10 was a lot faster than anything the GT crowd was used to. Being that it's a popular affordable platform, people definately went a little crazy with how "ground breaking" it was. The GM crowd already had experience with that level of performance in base cars from the 6th gen and the c7, even the c6 to some degree.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by s346k

you don't get out much, do you?

you would be surprised how well the bolt on cars run. id put an fbo ss up against a stock zl1 any day from 0-140. the mustangs are on par with the camaros mod for mod. "bolt ons" is a loosely used term and obviously they don't yield the same results.

Yea I've seen m6 fbo ss's keep up with zl1's in typical 40/60 - 140 rolls... fbo a10 GT's and ss's beating or matching stock zl1's isn't all that surprising, on a typical roll or the track. Like you said bolt ons are pretty vague let alone fbo... who tuned it and how well sorted the fbo car matters quite a bit as well.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

A NA 450-460 HP car is going to be able to launch much easier than a supercharged 650 HP car. Which is why this all becomes just a crock of BS once you start adding mods to the mix. Quarter mile or 0-140 is not telling you which car is faster. Simply put, if the GT with FBO and E85 tune is beating a ZL1 from 0-140, then that is simply because it is getting the jump and holding the lead until the ZL1 straight up outmuscles it.

Which brings me to a strong point. If the GT is ahead at 100 MPH, and then by 140 the ZL1 not only neutralized the acceleration but reeled the GT in and passes it, then that tells you just how far apart and superior the ZL1 is. It is one thing if you see that at 140 both cars are accelerating the same and the GT is not gaining any ground. But when it is actually being pulled in at those speeds and then gets walked, that says a lot. Which is why the GT with FBO and E85 is never going to be on the same level as a stock ZL1. It defies all physics. With those mods, a GT is not putting out 550-ish RWHP. Probably not even 500 RWHP. A stock ZL1 in most cases is in that range. And the weight is not too far off. Basically the ZL1 is not heavy enough to offset the power advantage it enjoys. So there is no way in hell that a FBO E85 GT with a 75 RWHP deficit, a much steeper TQ deficit, and no significant weight advantage, can be faster than a stock ZL1. Now that we settled that...

A lot of these videos with GTs having this or that mod are with them pitted against other drivers who either didn't take them seriously, do not know how to drive properly, are not in the proper mode, the GT is hiding mods, or they are staged videos. Because if a GT is beating a ZL1 soo handily, then it should be at the very least matching the GT500. So why do we not see any videos of these GTs that are faster than ZL1s also racing GT500s? A lot of this is bullshit. Which also explains why people like Idaho thinks his GT is faster than a Shelby. And why all those Mustang guys thought the GT was competition for the Hellcat and Z06 and GTRs. It's because they're watching these videos and they want to believe that for $31K OTD they bought a car that with just a few simple bolt-ons can beat $70K+ cars.

Last thing, we are far out of the realm of measuring performance by 0-140 or 40 MPH roll-ons in my opinion. I see videos all the time and they race these cars and they go up to about 100 or 120 and declare a winner. Same with motorcycles. You simply cannot measure 200 MPH cars that way. The biggest problem is that there are not many tracks big enough to measure these cars. Quarter mile racing to me is useless. I think it should be increased to third mile. I mean, we're talking about cars where 650 HP is the lowest output. Why are we using measure sticks from decades ago when cars were pushing 300 HP thru a 3 sp auto? And why are we starting at 40 MPH for roll races? We should be starting at 80 MPH. It kinda goes back to what someone mentioned about a car going 12.0 at 130 MPH vs another car going 11.9 at 119 MPH. Or even those two cars at 40 MPH. You can nail it in both cars and the slower car will get the jump because they might be able to go WOT while the more powerful car will have to ease into it. If the race doesn't last long enough for the more powerful car to spread it's legs, then you'll be left thinking that GTs with FBO and E85 are faster than ZL1s.

Most people don't roll past 140 the majority of the time, so for all practical purposes well sorted "fbo" base cars can hang with or even best higher horsepower/trim cars in the type of racing they'll usually be involved in.

I somewhat understand what you're saying about the 1/4 not being enough for guys who can't launch or don't care to workout how to put the power down on a high horsepower car (for any variety of reasons), so for those applications it's great that they have 1/2 and full mile events, although sometimes depending on the event host those don't even feel like racing just who's car went faster.... but the 1/4 has been around for years and not just for 300hp classics, 1000+hp cars are still competing at 1/4 events just fine to this day. Stock zl1/gt500s ect dont need a longer track anymore than those cars do imo.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

All u had to say that it wasn’t fbo.

Lol... yea I think that was the jist of that.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

What’s great about watching cars run in real life is theoretical physics is secondary

So you have no explanation.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Most people don't roll past 140 the majority of the time, so for all practical purposes well sorted "fbo" base cars can hang with or even best higher horsepower/trim cars in the type of racing they'll usually be involved in.

Thank you. That is what I am trying to explain. Usually in these so-called "races", they're cutting the videos, running out of room, or angling the camrea when in all reality the ZL1 is reeling them in. Meaning at that particular time the ZL1 is actually going faster.

What I wonder is if there are videos actually comparing the rate of acceleration or comparing the MPH at that particular time. I think we'd see a completely different race if we had that info.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by 6spdhyperblue

What’s great about watching cars run in real life is theoretical physics is secondary

Yup 100%

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Most people don't roll past 140 the majority of the time, so for all practical purposes well sorted "fbo" base cars can hang with or even best higher horsepower/trim cars in the type of racing they'll usually be involved in.

I somewhat understand what you're saying about the 1/4 not being enough for guys who can't launch or don't care to workout how to put the power down on a high horsepower car (for any variety of reasons), so for those applications it's great that they have 1/2 and full mile events, although sometimes depending on the event host those don't even feel like racing just who's car went faster.... but the 1/4 has been around for years and not just for 300hp classics, 1000+hp cars are still competing at 1/4 events just fine to this day. Stock zl1/gt500s ect dont need a longer track anymore than those cars do imo.

Mr. Whole only races on 180mph private road courses remember!?!

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you have no explanation.


Thank you. That is what I am trying to explain. Usually in these so-called "races", they're cutting the videos, running out of room, or angling the camrea when in all reality the ZL1 is reeling them in. Meaning at that particular time the ZL1 is actually going faster.

What I wonder is if there are videos actually comparing the rate of acceleration or comparing the MPH at that particular time. I think we'd see a completely different race if we had that info.

Maybe... but if the race is to 140, then that's when it's over and whoever is ahead at that moment wins (oh the joys of roll racing, what if the car that's behind reaches 140 first? lol)... it's all relative, usually x car is faster than y car is dependent on the predetermined measurement (speed or distance) or race setting being discussed, not necessarily which car is the fastest all out with out any time or distance limit which isn't very practical lol... though you are seeing more 60 - 160s in highly modded high hp cars.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Again you seem to be one of the very few people concerned with top speed. I don't get it.

It is exhilarating!!

Anyway I was not talking about actually going those speeds. I'm talking about acceleration potential. A vehicle that can travel 200 MPH at it's mechanical limit will accelerate faster than a vehicle that has a 180 MPH mechanical limited top speed. That is if all other factors are equal. Or if there are no significant differences. Case with the ZL1 and HC. The HC has a 4 MPH higher top speed than the ZL1. ALl other factors (gearing, etc) are not significantly different. However the HC is a good deal heavier. Yet, from about 120-140, the HC will walk past the ZL1. But up to that speed the ZL1 might even get the jump and seem to be faster. There are plenty of videos with ZL1s pulling on HCs early in a race. However the only reason for that is because the race isn't lasting long enough to see the HC catch up. Or, again, if you check the acceleration rate, most likely the HC is actually accelerating much faster. Which is why it will not only catch up with the ZL1, but will pass it. That is what I am saying. Maybe 40-140 there might not be much of a difference that we can see with our eyes when looking at a 460 HP car vs a 700 HP car. But again, if we could see how each car is accelerating, then we would know.

And this is why these discussions are important. Because it is the same as looking at a time slip and seeing which car is faster vs which car got from point A to point B faster. Or seeing a 12.0 at 130 MPH compared to an 11.9 at 119 MPH.

Remember the videos with the C8 beating the GT500 in the quarter mile? What was the argument there? Do you remember?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Maybe... but if the race is to 140, then that's when it's over and whoever is ahead at that moment wins (oh the joys of roll racing, what if the car that's behind reaches 140 first? lol)... it's all relative, usually x car is faster than y car is dependent on the predetermined measurement (speed or distance) or race setting being discussed, not necessarily which car is the fastest all out with out any time or distance limit which isn't very practical lol... though you are seeing more 60 - 160s in highly modded high hp cars.

Oh of course. And I would never argue that. Which is why it is important to know your car and know what you're up against. If there are set parameters then that is the race. I beat plenty of much more powerful and much faster cars because the race had certain parameters that favored me. But end of the race I never said my car was faster. I always acknowledged that my car was not faster, I just could beat that car in that particular race. The problem I have is not that these FBO E85 GTs can beat a ZL1 under special conditions, it's that people are going around saying it is a faster car. Again, physics cannot be denied. A car with less HP, less TQ, no significant weight or gearing difference, etc...is not faster than a car with more HP and TQ. It simply is not going to happen. It might be able to beat a car under certain conditions.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Lots of strong thoughts on this topic. That's good. A few of mine:

My car is one bolt on (headers) away from FBO. It is also 70 lbs lighter than factory, with 37 lbs of that rotating mass (36 lbs in the wheels, 1 lbs aluminum water pump pulley). The weight reduction makes up for probably about half of my headers deficiency. Meaning, if I were to race a full weight GT PP1 A10 with FBOs my car would be very close. E85 adds another 25-30 rwhp so a FBO +E85 is going to be even quicker.

My car is not as quick as a ZL1, I know, but it's not that far behind at lower speeds under the right conditions at WOT because my car is about 200 lbs lighter and it has a gearing advantage (3.55 diff vs. 2.85 in the ZL1). Above, say, 90-100 and esp. past 120+ mph, my hp deficit wouldn't stand a chance. At lower speeds under potentially ideal conditions, before the ZL1's hp has a chance to stretch its legs as Blaq has been discussing, they're closer; as some people have stated FBO cars can hang for a bit under the right conditions.

If we're talking midrange torque, my car is far behind in feel compared to the ZL1. That's the nature of a high revving DOHC NA engine vs a 6.2 liter supercharged engine. But at 60 mph when I nail it, it feels a bit behind what I recall feeling in the ZL1. No one races at 3500 rpm so mid range torque is cool, but not the end all.

My timed acceleration runs were just one piece of the puzzle (in addition to the big MAF gains which really can't be disputed because that data comes directly from my car's computer). I did multiple tests and every time my bolt on car (before weight reduction) was quicker than stock. If the times weren't exact, at least the runs were apples to apples to prove to me that the car is indeed quicker than it was when it was stock.

I realize that short bursts of acceleration like I timed with 20-70 mph last only about 3ish seconds. That's not a lot of time to be able to let the extra power of the ZL1 start to do it's thing.

Now, ZL1 quick? Not exactly, but not far off in some conditions (say, ideal to my GT) and even then only momentarily until the ZL1 "gets its legs" so to speak, and would begin to walk away. I could feel the difference in power when I drove the ZL1, there's no question about that. 650 hp is 650 hp.

All that said, the ZL1 is a beast!!

[s346k]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

Yes I get out to the track, it's you who don't understand in this case.

as much as i love the drag strip, it is a poor channel to compare the general acceleration of modern vehicles, presumably on 19"+ street tires and raceweights knocking on 4,000 lb. there are also a lot of other variables directly related to track prep and driver skill.

i agree 100% an a10 mustang with those mods won't compete with an a10 ZL1 over 120 mph. but it would certainly make one nervous up to 100. i think vs an m6 ZL1 it would go either way.

and idk about other bolt on camaros, but my m6 (1LE) car on stock wheels and tires struggles to hook under 50 mph, even in the summer. if it's under 70* fuhgettabouttit. i have a plan for that, which will bring set of tires #4 to my dining room.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It is exhilarating!!

Anyway I was not talking about actually going those speeds. I'm talking about acceleration potential. A vehicle that can travel 200 MPH at it's mechanical limit will accelerate faster than a vehicle that has a 180 MPH mechanical limited top speed. That is if all other factors are equal. Or if there are no significant differences. Case with the ZL1 and HC. The HC has a 4 MPH higher top speed than the ZL1. ALl other factors (gearing, etc) are not significantly different. However the HC is a good deal heavier. Yet, from about 120-140, the HC will walk past the ZL1. But up to that speed the ZL1 might even get the jump and seem to be faster. There are plenty of videos with ZL1s pulling on HCs early in a race. However the only reason for that is because the race isn't lasting long enough to see the HC catch up. Or, again, if you check the acceleration rate, most likely the HC is actually accelerating much faster. Which is why it will not only catch up with the ZL1, but will pass it. That is what I am saying. Maybe 40-140 there might not be much of a difference that we can see with our eyes when looking at a 460 HP car vs a 700 HP car. But again, if we could see how each car is accelerating, then we would know.

And this is why these discussions are important. Because it is the same as looking at a time slip and seeing which car is faster vs which car got from point A to point B faster. Or seeing a 12.0 at 130 MPH compared to an 11.9 at 119 MPH.

Remember the videos with the C8 beating the GT500 in the quarter mile? What was the argument there? Do you remember?

I mean you aren't wrong in anything your saying lol. You can definitely see which car is making the power and still accelerating at those higher speeds for sure.

I guess since I am a 1/4 mile guy at heart I don't really care what happens once the finish line is crossed lol

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by s346k

as much as i love the drag strip, it is a poor channel to compare the general acceleration of modern vehicles, presumably on 19"+ street tires and raceweights knocking on 4,000 lb. there are also a lot of other variables directly related to track prep and driver skill.

i agree 100% an a10 mustang with those mods won't compete with an a10 ZL1 over 120 mph. but it would certainly make one nervous up to 100. i think vs an m6 ZL1 it would go either way.

and idk about other bolt on camaros, but my m6 (1LE) car on stock wheels and tires struggles to hook under 50 mph, even in the summer. if it's under 70* fuhgettabouttit. i have a plan for that, which will bring set of tires #4 to my dining room.

IMO The GM M6 bog limits your 1LE 60' no matter your tire . This can be tuned out however. I put 17x305 ET Streets on my M6 LT1 and after about 50 runs my best 60's were middling 1.9s. Those same tires on my A10 ZL could do no better with more power and an auto. It turns out the auto ZL1 had the same bogware. Experienced racers were asking me why my car(s) were falling down at the line. They could see what I thought I felt. I think the best rear tires for any fast Camaro on the street are these 17" ET Streets below. They handle really well and last much longer than Toyo R888Rs. Of course I would put the stock tires back on when running on a road track.

My A10 ZL1 with or without tires ran 11.3-11.4 most of the time except at a downhill track and was embarassed by some less than FBO Mustangs and Camaros.

My ZL1 was so "slow" I got bored and moved on....

Sorry to interrupt the flow. I am also bored at work.