[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In all fairness to Ford, they did do some additional work to the suspension. It is evident in the 2019 GT350, which they specifically said would get some suspension modifications based on what they found in GT500 development. Ditto the GT350R. Having briefly driven a 2017 GT350 and a 2019 GT350, I can immediately feel the difference. Big improvement. Similarly, I drove a 2019 Bullitt and a 2019 GT350 within a week of each other. The differences in handling and ride field were astounding. GT350 is more than just a GT with a better MT and coolers. And I expect that the GT500 is more than just a GT with a blower, a DCT, big brakes and coolers.

But in any event, I’m still feelin’ a C8 GS or Z06 over a GT500 (either version) when the time comes.

The gt350 is a different animal to the Bullitt for sure, but you cannot underestimate how big of a difference the wheels tires on the gt350/pp2 make over a Bullits on top of some suspension tuning.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If you were aware of the changes before you drove the 17 and 19 GT350s then it could be argued that there might have been some placebo element added in. You might have in some way been expecting the 19 to perform better and therefore it might have felt like it did. Kinda like how after an oil change my cars feel much faster. Or how after I let someone drive one of my cars they feel weird and sluggish. The only way to know for sure would be if Ford allowed a comparo with the 17 and 19 Shelbys to prove that they actually did tweak the newer ones. I am not aware that such a test exists. So I have to remain skeptical.

Plus, a 17 is older and might be slightly worn vs a fresher (at that particular time) 19. So that could explain why the 19 felt different. Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt Ford did anything to the GT350s. If they did such a drastic improvement in the non-R, then those advances should have been included in the GT500 in which case with the additional HP the ZLE should not be a match at all. If the non-R felt that different then certainly the R could make up for those 4 tenths that it was behind the ZL1. And if that was employed on the 500 then there is no way in Hell the ZLE should "surpass" the 500 in anything. And definitely no way the C8 Z51 should have even been as close as it was to the 500. The R should be beating the ZL1 at this point and Frod should be encouraging a rematch to prove they tweaked it and just how much better it is. Yet the non-R is stuck battling the lackluster GT PP2...so that tells a lot right there. I don't think Frod did shit but add $5K to the price tag.

This, if the 19+ changes were so substantial in terms of actual performance gain and not just steering feel there would be tests showing better lap times from 19+ gt350r's. Hard to use the regular gt350 since it's wearing better tires along with the updates.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Sorry, you got this all wrong. Part of my job both at GM (2010 - 17) and at IHS Markit (current) involve objectively driving many different vehicles under many different conditions and providing opinions and evaluation of multiple aspects of powertrain performance and ride and handling. I know when I’m gonna have steak and when I‘m gonna have pork chops. Knowing ahead of time doesn’t change the taste.

A very nice wat to put it. Man though, how does one get your job? But the other parts might not be as fun. And I thought I had the best job in the world working from home with my dog, big Millie.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Eh...maybe. I think a very limited production car that will go way up in value is a bad car to use as an example in this case. I just dont think GT buyers bought them for their speed, they bought them for their exclusivity, heritage, and future value. None of which are in anyway effected by the Z06 ass woopin' on the horizon.

Let me clarify my earlier point. During C&D LL testing C7 ZR1 posted much better lap times. Just in case you haven't seen this before I will post the url here. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/ If these two were on track at the same time the GT driver would need radar to spot the ZR1 after a few laps. So if this aged C7 platform can run away and hide from Ford's best car, how much worse will this situation become when Z06 is released?

My point is this, Ford chassis development is not even close to GM and hasn't been for many years. Hard for anyone to deny the reality that Ford is very far behind. New 500 test results only further expose this gap and the fact it doesn't look as if they are catching up anytime soon. To your point regarding the typical GT buyer, yes you are right. And this type of buyer will most likely never track them. And even if they did I'd wager they couldn't extract a decent lap time from a Honda let alone a "Supercar" such as a GT.

And on the subject of driving these cars, in the very near future, I have a track day scheduled and there will be two gents participating in their Mclaren 720s "supercars". I'm not 100% on this but I bet you they aren't going to break these out of hermetically sealed car condoms from a climate-controlled warehouse to get ready to run either. Not sure these gents are aware that they are de-valuing these cars buy driving and tracking them? No worries I'll let them know next month when we are at the track.

That should make all the speculators rest easy knowing I'm on the job helping to protect the market place. It's not a glamorous job but someone has to do right? Otherwise, the "Supercar" market could collapse and the speculators would have to drive lowly Camaros and Corvettes. We can't have that now, can we?

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Eh...maybe. I think a very limited production car that will go way up in value is a bad car to use as an example in this case. I just dont think GT buyers bought them for their speed, they bought them for their exclusivity, heritage, and future value. None of which are in anyway effected by the Z06 ass woopin' on the horizon.

Yea, the GT wasn't even better around a course than the c7 zr1. I don't think ford GT owners will be fazed by that much at all, numbers weren't the only selling point to that car and it'll still command much more money than the faster vettes.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Yea, the GT wasn't even better around a course than the c7 zr1. I don't think ford GT owners will be fazed by that much at all, numbers weren't the only selling point to that car and it'll still command much more money than the faster vettes.

At least one Ford GT hammered for over $1 million at B-J this weekend. Don't think GT owners really care about C7s.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Let me clarify my earlier point. During C&D LL testing C7 ZR1 posted much better lap times. Just in case you haven't seen this before I will post the url here. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/ If these two were on track at the same time the GT driver would need radar to spot the ZR1 after a few laps. So if this aged C7 platform can run away and hide from Ford's best car, how much worse will this situation become when Z06 is released?

My point is this, Ford chassis development is not even close to GM and hasn't been for many years. Hard for anyone to deny the reality that Ford is very far behind. New 500 test results only further expose this gap and the fact it doesn't look as if they are catching up anytime soon. To your point regarding the typical GT buyer, yes you are right. And this type of buyer will most likely never track them. And even if they did I'd wager they couldn't extract a decent lap time from a Honda let alone a "Supercar" such as a GT.

And on the subject of driving these cars, in the very near future, I have a track day scheduled and there will be two gents participating in their Mclaren 720s "supercars". I'm not 100% on this but I bet you they aren't going to break these out of hermetically sealed car condoms from a climate-controlled warehouse to get ready to run either. Not sure these gents are aware that they are de-valuing these cars buy driving and tracking them? No worries I'll let them know next month when we are at the track.

That should make all the speculators rest easy knowing I'm on the job helping to protect the market place. It's not a glamorous job but someone has to do right? Otherwise, the "Supercar" market could collapse and the speculators would have to drive lowly Camaros and Corvettes. We can't have that now, can we?

I don't understand your 720s analogy, but outside of that I could not agree more with you. GM is lightyears ahead of Ford, and the C7 competing with their supercar GT is undeniable proof, as you pointed out.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Rodan

At least one Ford GT hammered for over $1 million at B-J this weekend. Don't think GT owners really care about C7s.

Exactly! Even if I have $20 million in the bank, I would struggle to spend $500K-$1 million of that on a car. Ford GT Buyers have LOTS and LOTS of money. They can quite literally buy whatever car they want, and likely have ZR1's already sitting next to their Ferraris and Lambos and McLarens and so on. No sleep lost for those guys when it comes to performance matchups of their garages.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Rodan

At least one Ford GT hammered for over $1 million at B-J this weekend. Don't think GT owners really care about C7s.

That number will only go up, save for VIN#0001 of the ZR1 I doubt the C7's will see much appreciation.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The gt350 is a different animal to the Bullitt for sure, but you cannot underestimate how big of a difference the wheels tires on the gt350/pp2 make over a Bullits on top of some suspension tuning.

Very good point. The Cup 2 tires definitely do a lot for the ‘19 GT350.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

This, if the 19+ changes were so substantial in terms of actual performance gain and not just steering feel there would be tests showing better lap times from 19+ gt350r's. Hard to use the regular gt350 since it's wearing better tires along with the updates.

If I understand correctly, the R doesn’t get the suspension improvements until ‘20 MY. I haven’t driven one and I haven’t seen any reports on the ‘20 R yet. I have seen some on the ‘19 non-R and all note the improved behavior with the improved suspension and Cup 2 tires.

Originally Posted by Fraxum

A very nice wat to put it. Man though, how does one get your job? But the other parts might not be as fun. And I thought I had the best job in the world working from home with my dog, big Millie.

Too be honest, it’s all fun to me. Even some of the tedious database input stuff. It’s the digging for details on product strategy and future content that I like best. And driving the cars, of course. But for every GT350 I drive I also drive several Altimas, Elantras, and Escapes. Doesn’t suck, but doesn’t make me giggle like the performance cars do. Although the Sonata I drove last week.....

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Very good point. The Cup 2 tires definitely do a lot for the ‘19 GT350.


If I understand correctly, the R doesn’t get the suspension improvements until ‘20 MY. I haven’t driven one and I haven’t seen any reports on the ‘20 R yet. I have seen some on the ‘19 non-R and all note the improved behavior with the improved suspension and Cup 2 tires.



Too be honest, it’s all fun to me. Even some of the tedious database input stuff. It’s the digging for details on product strategy and future content that I like best. And driving the cars, of course. But for every GT350 I drive I also drive several Altimas, Elantras, and Escapes. Doesn’t suck, but doesn’t make me giggle like the performance cars do. Although the Sonata I drove last week.....

I didnt know that, I was under the impression the gt350r's got the same steering rack/shaft updates from the gt500 as the regular gt350 got in 2019. If that's the case then I guess we'll have to wait and see. Either way I've heard from owners who upgraded their early gt350s that the steering feel is better whether it makes any difference in performance or not.

Sonata's for the win lol.. I make fun of my gf's current 17 Sonata but the new one will most likely out tech my cars interior wise.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Sorry, you got this all wrong. Part of my job both at GM (2010 - 17) and at IHS Markit (current) involve objectively driving many different vehicles under many different conditions and providing opinions and evaluation of multiple aspects of powertrain performance and ride and handling. I know when I’m gonna have steak and when I‘m gonna have pork chops. Knowing ahead of time doesn’t change the taste.



When I drove the ‘17 it was a fresh car and it was driven at GM Proving Grounds in a competitive drive event that also included an SS 1LE (which I did not drive, oddly enough) and a ZL1 (which I did drive). This was prior to the launch of ZL1. The ‘19 is a car that was actually slightly less fresh in that it had several thousand miles on it (I think in the 7k range, but I’ve driven so many cars this year I may be confusing with something else). I did drive it a week after driving a Bullitt and found it hard to believe they were actually built on the same chassis. Ford did a lot of work on the GT350 compared to the Bullitt / GT suspension.

My point is that, as someone else said, if there were such substantial changes to the GT350, then we would have had some comparisons or at least updated info on it. But we don't. We just have Ford claiming they did upgrade it, a $5K increase in price, and nothing more. The ZLE is about $7K more expensive than the ZL1. And we have data to confirm that the ZLE will roast the ZL1. Same with the Base C8 to the C8 Z51. We know the Z51 clearly and undeniably outperforms the Base. A $5K difference in upgrades is substantial. But with Frod there is no info at all other than word of mouth. Again, if the 350 got such extensive upgrades then it would close the gap on the ZL1 and THAT would have been a huge story consider how it got spanked back in 2017. I mean a 526 HP Shelby that got beaten 3 years ago gets such extensive upgrades and nobody tests it to see how much better it is?

At the very least, can someone even tell me what those upgrades include? Bigger brakes? Better cooling? Any skidpad info? Quarter mile? Lateral Gs? Figure 8? Changes to the ECU tuning? Or did they slap some better tires on it, tighten the steering up, and say "look, the GT350 got some crazy upgrades...it's $5K more expensive now"...??

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

My point is that, as someone else said, if there were such substantial changes to the GT350, then we would have had some comparisons or at least updated info on it. But we don't. We just have Ford claiming they did upgrade it, a $5K increase in price, and nothing more. The ZLE is about $7K more expensive than the ZL1. And we have data to confirm that the ZLE will roast the ZL1. Same with the Base C8 to the C8 Z51. We know the Z51 clearly and undeniably outperforms the Base. A $5K difference in upgrades is substantial. But with Frod there is no info at all other than word of mouth. Again, if the 350 got such extensive upgrades then it would close the gap on the ZL1 and THAT would have been a huge story consider how it got spanked back in 2017. I mean a 526 HP Shelby that got beaten 3 years ago gets such extensive upgrades and nobody tests it to see how much better it is?

At the very least, can someone even tell me what those upgrades include? Bigger brakes? Better cooling? Any skidpad info? Quarter mile? Lateral Gs? Figure 8? Changes to the ECU tuning? Or did they slap some better tires on it, tighten the steering up, and say "look, the GT350 got some crazy upgrades...it's $5K more expensive now"...??

The last several GT350 vs <pick a car> comparisons mentioned that the GT350 was upgraded for 2019. The one I recall most is the GT350 vs Porsche 911. Here’s a link to the article. Fourth paragraph speaks briefly to the upgrades. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pors...ar-comparison/

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The last several GT350 vs <pick a car> comparisons mentioned that the GT350 was upgraded for 2019. The one I recall most is the GT350 vs Porsche 911. Here’s a link to the article. Fourth paragraph speaks briefly to the upgrades. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pors...ar-comparison/

Ok. With the C8s, a $5K upgrade to the Z51 gets you better tires, bigger brakes (12.6 to 13.6 front rotors and 13.3 to 13.8 rears), better cooling (a third radiator and transmission cooler as well as ducting for the brakes), upgraded performance exhaust, eLSD, PTM, and a different gear ratio (that's arguably a wash if you ask me). We know the Z51 does 0-60 under 3 seconds which is faster than the Base. And we know it goes around a track faster. I think it was a 2 second difference. And just to throw this in there, I believe the ZLE was about 3 seconds faster around a track than the ZL1.

With the GT350, $5K gets you better tires (no debating that), "stiffer springs and shocks to take advantage of the newfound grip, revised Brembo brakes, and improved aerodynamics employing lessons learned from the coming 760-hp 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500"

Revised Brembo brakes. Revised how? Are they bigger? Did it improve the braking? Stiffer springs and shocks. Did it improve the handling in any measurable way? Improved aero. How did that improve the car?

LOL! And people eat this up. So basically, $5K gets me a better set of tires...