[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Finding this hard to believe. Especially in this era of viral videos and riots. Maybe, just maybe, there is more to this than we are being told just rile everyone up?

yea.. 30 years of cops killing black people far disproportionally to how many white people they kill. Cops policing black people far disproportionally to white people. Cops becoming ever more militarized. Cops getting away with crimes that non-cops wouldn't repeatedly. And that's not just 30 years of this happening, it's just been 30 since cameras have become ubiquitous enough that this can't be swept under the rug or called an isolated incident without proof.


These instances we see on the news aren't _all_ of the instances these things happen. It's just the few that trickle into the public eye. They are backed by far more that aren't captured on camera....or aren't as blatently obvious in wrongful behavior.

civil rights didn't happen with nice conversation between the oppressed and the oppressors. It happened after riots and marches and protests. Even unions dont tend to get their way until they strike to hurt the people in charge.

People in power dont seem to be listening ...the people who elect them dont directly suffer from the issue so necessary changes aren't happening the normal way things do. So once again, protests are the only way to make a resistive controlling body do the right thing. They're not demanding anything more than what white people (which i'm pretty sure most of us here are) get when it comes to interactions with cops. That's not unreasonable, but the constant downplaying rhetoric does nothing but try and keep the status quo.

It's not a few bad apples,...it's been going on forever and it shouldn't. Cops should be people we all consider good and want to have around. Not what they currently are in this country. Even as a white person, when was the last time you were driving around and felt relieved with a cop driving behind you? Even if you aren't doing anything illegal? I know I dont. That's not how cops should be seen by the public they serve. It's just I know all I'm going to deal with is a minor hassle if they pull me over - 0% chance they'll hurt me, not potentially killed or roughed up like a black person has a real chance to be.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Zar_2SS

If you compare the size of the groups that are looting to the groups that are peacefully protesting you can notice that a small number are the looters. The looters are all opportunist taking advantage of the situation. It's shameful, really takes away from whats really going on.

It's not just the looters that are opportunist in this situation, let's just say...

"We stand behind this cause. Now buy our products!"

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You don't hear about that happening because if it ever does it's super rare. Kind of the entire point here. Black people are protesting because what cops do to them isn't rare and isn't similar to how cops interact with white people.

Cops need to change and they aren't doing it without the protests so maybe they are necessary. That's the people in charges fault... Not the people protestings.

Protesting is fine but this is no protesting. Again, I see things that are trying to justify what's going on. There is no justifying any of the violence and looting. And they aren't even directed at the cops(which I don't condone but at least it would make sense).

As I said, a lot of protests start out alright and then become a crap show.

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Finding this hard to believe. Especially in this era of viral videos and riots. Maybe, just maybe, there is more to this than we are being told just rile everyone up?

Context is for the weak. Now go out and loo... I mean protest.

Sent from toaster or something

[CamaroRSOnt]

Facts of the matter last year from the Washington Post which has tracked police killings since 2015...


For 2019 - source Washington Post database:

19 unarmed white suspects killed by police

10 unarmed black suspects killed by police
7,700 black men killed by black men
48 cops killed by black men.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Protesting is fine but this is no protesting. Again, I see things that are trying to justify what's going on. There is no justifying any of the violence and looting. And they aren't even directed at the cops(which I don't condone but at least it would make sense).

As I said, a lot of protests start out alright and then become a crap show.

And those people are being arrested...will be procesecuted Maybe not all of them are getting caught, but they're being caught when they can and arrested and charged with crimes and will almost certainly be found guilty.

Even if it's not happening at the time of the crime, they have video footage and will track them down wherever possible. The justice system is good at punishing people.

Lets see if they can be just as good at punishing themselves for crimes as well.

These particular riots are a good mix of angry protesters, external groups looking to make a situation worse, and violent responses to non-rioting protests by police.

It's not something anyone wants but it appears to be something we as a people need to have happen before anything serious is changed in the system. It hasn't changed in the past with non-violent protests. I'm sure if the colored people could "strike" the police and the police suffered for it, we'd be able to avoid this... but you can't strike the police. How else do you make the unresponsive people in charge feel pain enough to do what they d ont want to do? How else do you make injustice apparent so that it can't continue to be ignored? Doing it the right ..civil way hasn't been working and this isn't an issue that can wait longer than it has. It's not a want or a privilege. It's basic human rights that are being trampled on based on skin color. Demanding that they try to redress that the way that hasn't been working is unrealistic. We should be more upset that it has come to this for basic equal treatment by people we pay to protect and serve the community more than we are upset that some property is being vandalized. We should be pursuing those cops (not just these particular 4 but all of them) that kill people without need or hurt them unnecessarily just as strongly as we pursue and want to prosecute people who damage businesses or steal cars. But we dont. We are letting bigger crimes go unpunished because they're not happening to us and we've let it be that way for way too long and have ignored attempts to change it. That's the crux.

[UnknownJinX]

Damaging properties is fine until it's yours.

Would you sacrifice yours for the looters because, ugh, somehow you are associated with the police?

As I said, you want it to direct it at the police, do it to them. Hurting your Average Joe and their business doesn't do crap to those in power. If anything, it helps them getting some of their narratives across for voters. And wouldn't you know it, there are evidence of greater forces tampering behind the scene. Just like every riot. If you think somehow this hurts those in power, I think there is a lot of waking up you need to do.

This isn't 300 years ago when French Revolution and Independence War happened. Nowadays, we can connect each other a lot faster and more effectively, which means things like these are easier for those in power to manipulate.

Some of the things that are going on are actually hurting black people's reputation as a whole. I am just saying.

Sent from toaster or something

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Facts of the matter last year from the Washington Post which has tracked police killings since 2015...


For 2019 - source Washington Post database:

19 unarmed white suspects killed by police

10 unarmed black suspects killed by police
7,700 black men killed by black men
48 cops killed by black men.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2019/

play with the dropdowns. 10 were unarmed, 5 had toys, 8 had "unknown ...whatever that means, 18 had a vehicle ...

And white people had more. But that doesn't mean there's no problem ... black people make up about 17% of the US population, but have almost the same number of deaths (total deaths) as white people who make up 76+ % of the population.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ings-database/

Some pretty charts to put that population difference into perspective.

The idea that black people are more violent than white people is ignoring that they're not treated the same way as white people. The're not policed the same way as white people. You could overlap that statement to some extent with poor neighborhoods and more affluent neighborhoods. Even for the same crimes, poor people are criminalized disproportionately to their richer counterparts. It's a cycle of what amounts to harsher oppression of a group of people causing that people to be more violent that needs to stop and it needs to stop with the biased policing that has been going on since the country was founded.

The takeaway regarding police shootings as opposed to civilians shooting other civilians is that cops tend to get away with it regularly and on top of that they're biased in doing it to minorities and we're all paying them to do it.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

It's not a few bad apples,...it's been going on forever and it shouldn't.

The thing that I've learned as I get older in life is that, unfortunately, it's really hard to tell in a lot of instances if there's a silent majority of people who do good. The people who do evil obviously get attention.

I think that overarching fact describes the current state of U.S. politics in a nutshell. The media and politics are in a perpetual loop where the rule of thumb is things always escalate and rarely deescalate. Always focus on the negative without proposing a solution. Throw more oil on the fire.

I think both for those crooked cops, and for the looters, while it's hard in good conscious to label them as "few bad apples" due to how many there are, it's still not the majority. And the sad reality is, regardless of race or occupation, people who suck just plain suck, and they need to be kept in check by their peers, properly subjected to the repercussions of law, and given a minimum media spotlight. I have a personal belief that being an a**hole crosses all social boundaries, and in the U.S., we're long overdue to start calling those people out not in a generalized way but as individual people.

[mikeman]

Cops who suck need to be held to a higher standard though. None of this qualified immunity crap. When cops kill people, the department at worst usually just fires them. I think that kind of stuff needs to stop.

It's not only the bad cops at fault here, but the corrupt judges and prosecutors that are complicit in this whole thing. The whole system is broken.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

yea.. 30 years of cops killing black people far disproportionally to how many white people they kill. Cops policing black people far disproportionally to white people.

And, statistically, more black people are incarcerated. Perhaps, there are more criminals in that group? Forget all the socio-economic reasons. All the race cards. All the feel good blah blah. Cold. Hard. Statistics.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Cops becoming ever more militarized.

Can't defend that one...

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Cops getting away with crimes that non-cops wouldn't repeatedly. And that's not just 30 years of this happening, it's just been 30 since cameras have become ubiquitous enough that this can't be swept under the rug or called an isolated incident without proof.

This has been happening ever since the first cop got appointed. You can't change human nature. All people have failings. Life experiences also change people on BOTH sides of the law, for good and bad.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

These instances we see on the news aren't _all_ of the instances these things happen. It's just the few that trickle into the public eye. They are backed by far more that aren't captured on camera....or aren't as blatently obvious in wrongful behavior.

It can, and does, happen all the time. To all races, in all socio-economic levels and in a lot of circumstances. How many times have you been screwed by your insurance, the building dept, a business, a friend/neighbor? Bad thing happen to all people all the time and they do not deserve it.

Further, if it happened as often as you claimed, you'd see it on the news. Trust me. That is their agenda. We now know when white women call the police over black people using BBQ's in the park against the posted rules, walking dogs, writing slurs on receipts. Ya, we'd know....
(Not condoning any of that stuff. Just. Cold. Hard. Statistics.)

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

civil rights didn't happen with nice conversation between the oppressed and the oppressors. It happened after riots and marches and protests. Even unions dont tend to get their way until they strike to hurt the people in charge.

I guess MLK, Rosa Parks, Gandi, Jews in Egypt, and probably a few others do not count? Do not remember any of them having to hurt innocent neighbors physically or economically to win people over. Further, is Nike, Apple, the corner grocery store the "people in charge"? How is looting and burning a black owned sports bar "furthering your cause"?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

People in power dont seem to be listening ...the people who elect them dont directly suffer from the issue so necessary changes aren't happening the normal way things do.

And how many of those people rioting have ever voted? Seriously.
How many of them even know who their state or federal representatives are to effect change? Maybe THAT is why there is no change.....

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

So once again, protests are the only way to make a resistive controlling body do the right thing.

By all means, PLEASE do! It is your right. Whether I agree with it or not. But, that right stops the minute you injure your neighbor in order to further your "protest". How do you defend stealing 50+ cars (estimated @ $3 million) as "protesting"?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

They're not demanding anything more than what white people (which i'm pretty sure most of us here are) get when it comes to interactions with cops. That's not unreasonable, but the constant downplaying rhetoric does nothing but try and keep the status quo.

Color of a persons' skin has no bearing on this. We are "all created equal".
I've had interactions with the police that were rather nasty and also very pleasant. I've been duped into trusting them when they are really trying to issue a ticket or whatever else.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

It's not a few bad apples,...it's been going on forever and it shouldn't. Cops should be people we all consider good and want to have around. Not what they currently are in this country. Even as a white person, when was the last time you were driving around and felt relieved with a cop driving behind you? Even if you aren't doing anything illegal? I know I dont. That's not how cops should be seen by the public they serve.

You're right. It shouldn't. But it does. Sometimes the power goes to your head. Whether it's a badge, a boss, a mall cop, a building inspector, or the HOA. You can't change people.

And, personally, no, I am not intimidated by cops following me. I'll go right past one on the freeway or street. (respectfully, of course).
That's just me though. 99% of people are afraid of authority, or the potential use of authority.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

It's just I know all I'm going to deal with is a minor hassle if they pull me over - 0% chance they'll hurt me, not potentially killed or roughed up like a black person has a real chance to be.

I'm Sorry, but this is the stupidest thing you've said thus far.

99.9% of cops do NOT "kill or rough up" black people, or any people, because they want to. In a by-gone era, I might agree the "rough up" part
was more prevalent. But not today. Too many cameras, advocacy groups, education, social attitude changes, etc. for this to be any where mainstream.

Let me ask you a question:
Do you go down the street and say "Hey, it might be fun to kill that guy today!"? But, somehow, in your strange world, you believe you give a fellow a blue uniform and a piece of metal and they run around murdering people?

How about, "I'm mad that the dog chewed up my favorite shoes, I think I'll go beat some one up to make myself feel better". Sounds ridiculous, huh?

You don't think that those 4 cops are sitting at home and calling their friends saying "We got one yesterday, too bad we got caught".

Or, like any human, do you think they just feel awful that they accidently killed someone? And, just torture themselves reliving what they did wrong, what they could of done different, how they didn't notice. Over and over, for the rest of their lives?

I have yet to have 4 cops jump on me, and I'm willing to bet the farm that none of us here have either. Why?

Because the color of our skin? (and that's all inclusive, not directed at just "white" people)

Or,

Because we weren't combative and resisting arrest?
We weren't endangering ourselves, the officers, or the public?
We were civil and respectful during the interaction?

[cellsafemode]

and cops who allow other cops to get away with it. It's become a club where even if you try to correct it from within, you'll be ostracized...so everyone keeps quiet. It needs drastic reform.


And the thread is obviously off topic for a car forum. It's ventured way into politics and such that normally gets moved or closed. But it seems obvious from the thread title that the op wanted a flame war. You dont pick a term like savages that white settlers used to dehumanize and justify the genocide and theft that they proceeded to do to natives to people who damage property without the intention to dehumanize and justify treating them as such. If people who damage property are barely human ...what does that make people who kill other people? What does that make people who damage people? Are they just animals then if people who damage property are savages? Should we start referring to people who damage people as animals and imply they should be treated as such? Language is a funny thing... dehumanizing is how this entire issue began...it can't be solved by continuing it.

[ZED SLED]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

I have yet to have 4 cops jump on me, and I'm willing to bet the farm that none of us here have either. Why?

Because the color of our skin? (and that's all inclusive, not directed at just "white" people)

Or,

Because we weren't combative and resisting arrest?
We weren't endangering ourselves, the officers, or the public?
We were civil and respectful during the interaction?

+1

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

And, statistically, more black people are incarcerated. Perhaps, there are more criminals in that group? Forget all the socio-economic reasons. All the race cards. All the feel good blah blah. Cold. Hard. Statistics.



Can't defend that one...

Except study after study shows that even when instances of a given crime exist equally across races, minorities are targetted and criminalized far more than white.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...res-the-proof/

There is no more criminals in black society than white society. There's just more policing and more enforcement. That leads to a cycle that causes a disproportionate chance of violent interactions because each interaction isn't starting with a clean slate in the experience of the people. The're not going into thinking this is going to be fair and just.

This has been happening ever since the first cop got appointed. You can't change human nature. All people have failings. Life experiences also change people on BOTH sides of the law, for good and bad.

Just ...no. If this human nature was being applied without bias like you're suggesting, it would be everyone who is demanding change from how police are doing their job and it would have been corrected a long time ago....but it's not. because it's racism + human nature. Racism isn't human nature.

It can, and does, happen all the time. To all races, in all socio-economic levels and in a lot of circumstances. How many times have you been screwed by your insurance, the building dept, a business, a friend/neighbor? Bad thing happen to all people all the time and they do not deserve it.

Again, ignoring inconvenient stats. Black people make up less than 18% of the population and are multiple times more likely to be arrested than white people who make up 76% of the population even for the exact same offenses.

As a white person, I dont fear cops in my day to day life not because i'm less violent and more reasonable during a traffic stop that black people are. It's because the entire interaction is less confrontational and violent. Guns aren't immediately raised. I'm not searched. It's a nice conversation and I haven't even gotten a ticket during those stops in over a decade. I'm not approached by cops on the street. My experience with police would not be the same if just my skin color was different.

Further, if it happened as often as you claimed, you'd see it on the news. Trust me. That is their agenda. We now know when white women call the police over black people using BBQ's in the park against the posted rules, walking dogs, writing slurs on receipts. Ya, we'd know....
(Not condoning any of that stuff. Just. Cold. Hard. Statistics.)

Crimes happen _all_ the time and the news doesn't cover them all. Inner city crime especially doesn't make the news because it's too common for the general public to care about. The only thing that gets into the news is the few that resonate with the public. For every post you get about a white woman calling the cops ...there are more where nobody had a camera on hand when it happened... or didn't know who the person was who called the cops. For every crime that the news reports on, there are others like it that do not get reported on.

Do you think that florida is the only state where stupid people do crazy things because whenever something crazy happens they preface it with "Florida man ..." ? No, it's because florida is one of the only states that publicizes their crime reports as they happen. Other states have just the same kind of idiots doing stupid things, they just dont make it super simple for people to look it up and know about it.

I guess MLK, Rosa Parks, Gandi, Jews in Egypt, and probably a few others do not count? Do not remember any of them having to hurt innocent neighbors physically or economically to win people over. Further, is Nike, Apple, the corner grocery store the "people in charge"? How is looting and burning a black owned sports bar "furthering your cause"?

Did MLK and rosa parks really succeed if minorities are still not equal? Has the peaceful protests and marches really worked if it's been decades since them and taxpayer dollars are still going into the hands of government organizations that are statistically and objectively biased against minorities? Have we seen change in the police force for the better in the past 30+ years of publicized police killings of unarmed people? At what point do you stop doing what's obviously not working and start doing something that might?

The things that rioters damage is not what makes riots a tool for the oppressed. The effect riots have is not that damaged property owners start seeing the other side ..it's that the general public demands that the government do something to stop this and return order to society. That demand on the government by the general public is the entire point that riots happen because that demand isn't being made any other way that's been tried.

And how many of those people rioting have ever voted? Seriously.
How many of them even know who their state or federal representatives are to effect change? Maybe THAT is why there is no change.....

17% isn't a majority to win elections. Even in localized areas, there are systems in place to disenfranchise minorities, to gerrymander, and to keep incumbents in power. Not to mention that you dont vote cops in. Many government officials and agencies are not voted into office. So even if minorities managed to get a candidate voted into some local office, they would have little power by themselves to do anything without support from a majority of their contemporaries.

By all means, PLEASE do! It is your right. Whether I agree with it or not. But, that right stops the minute you injure your neighbor in order to further your "protest". How do you defend stealing 50+ cars (estimated @ $3 million) as "protesting"?

The people who are damaging property are being arrested and charged. I dont see or hear anyone saying that they should be allowed to legally do what they're doing. You can be justified in breaking the law, but still be convicted of the crime and in most cases...should be. But i dont think people are even saying that they're justified in general. If anything i think a lot of the initial damage caused by rioters were being attributed to white supremist groups and other groups who want a race war to break out and so join in these protests as a shield to do what they want to do. But anytime you have a situation that is like this that needs to change and isn't, there's going to be damage.. And anytime those things are involving poor people, there's going to be looting. Some of these are race related and some just a byproduct of mobs in general. What's interesting with this current situation is that we're seeing external groups directly taking advantage of the situation for their own purposes while trying to make it look like something else. That kind of manipulation and how well it works is what is scary. What happens if something that impacts you strongly enough that you need to march on washington to address gets manipulated outside of your control? What was swaying public opinion can quickly be shifted. What happens if the government you're trying to change is behind such actions? It's a dystopian outlook to think how little power any group of people have when the majority is who you need to sway.

Color of a persons' skin has no bearing on this. We are "all created equal".
I've had interactions with the police that were rather nasty and also very pleasant. I've been duped into trusting them when they are really trying to issue a ticket or whatever else.



You're right. It shouldn't. But it does. Sometimes the power goes to your head. Whether it's a badge, a boss, a mall cop, a building inspector, or the HOA. You can't change people.

You can stop letting them get away with it. That's why we have law.

And, personally, no, I am not intimidated by cops following me. I'll go right past one on the freeway or street. (respectfully, of course).
That's just me though. 99% of people are afraid of authority, or the potential use of authority.

It's a white privilege to go the speed limit and pass a cop without fear. Most will go under. It's less about authority and more about the fact that the authority in question has the ability to ruin your life whenever they want to for whatever reason they feel like and that's more likely to happen if you're not white than if you are.

I'm Sorry, but this is the stupidest thing you've said thus far.

99.9% of cops do NOT "kill or rough up" black people, or any people, because they want to. In a by-gone era, I might agree the "rough up" part
was more prevalent. But not today. Too many cameras, advocacy groups, education, social attitude changes, etc. for this to be any where mainstream.

They all dont have to. 99.9% of cops just have to let the other .1% get away with it when they do to make the interaction the same for all. Because it's not like the .1% wear a special "I am judge dredd" hat.

Let me ask you a question:
Do you go down the street and say "Hey, it might be fun to kill that guy today!"? But, somehow, in your strange world, you believe you give a fellow a blue uniform and a piece of metal and they run around murdering people?

How about, "I'm mad that the dog chewed up my favorite shoes, I think I'll go beat some one up to make myself feel better". Sounds ridiculous, huh?

You don't think that those 4 cops are sitting at home and calling their friends saying "We got one yesterday, too bad we got caught".

Or, like any human, do you think they just feel awful that they accidently killed someone? And, just torture themselves reliving what they did wrong, what they could of done different, how they didn't notice. Over and over, for the rest of their lives?

I have yet to have 4 cops jump on me, and I'm willing to bet the farm that none of us here have either. Why?

Because the color of our skin? (and that's all inclusive, not directed at just "white" people)

Or,

Because we weren't combative and resisting arrest?
We weren't endangering ourselves, the officers, or the public?
We were civil and respectful during the interaction?

Yea, the whole resisting arrest and all is definitely what's happening to minorities with police. They're always resisting. Cops dont interact with you the same way they interact with minorities. Respect is earned. If you're part of a group that is being singled out by cops though, how much respect would you give them? If you're 3x as likely to be in the justice system as a white person because cops police you far more than white people, how nice are you going to be? The problem here is not how black people interact with cops. It's how cops interact with minorities. It's always been how cops interact with minorities because we've always had a racism problem with minorities in this country and cops have been given a pass on it because that's how the public feels about minorities too. But cops should be held to a higher standard than the public. They should be the best of us. Not a mirror.

[ZED SLED]

Man, you guys sure seem to have a lot of time to type. 'Working' from home, lol?

[ChevyRules]

What I want to know is what is people's source on the people who are looting, rioting, and burning buildings make up either the majority or minority of the people protesting? Of course the media will cover the riots more because that is what will sell. The scum that do riot and loot will take advantage of any situation to do so.



Is there a source backing this demographic make up of peaceful protestors and rioters?