[TrackClub]

And if so, has the root cause of a problem been positively identified by a dealer? Interested in feedback as ive heard (second hand) of a failure recently on a 2020my model. I have no details and i am asking this question as a general inquiry only.

If somebody has any concrete info on this subject, please share it. Thanks!

[BlueinTN]

This Ice mode or something more sinister?

[nasbagoat]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

And if so, has the root cause of a problem been positively identified by a dealer? Interested in feedback as ive heard (second hand) of a failure recently on a 2020my model. I have no details and i am asking this question as a general inquiry only.

If somebody has any concrete info on this subject, please share it. Thanks!

Are you refering to the gentlemen on Camaro 1LE R and 6th 1LE that shared his perceived LF brake failure resulting in a spin and crash?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by nasbagoat

Are you refering to the gentlemen on Camaro 1LE R and 6th 1LE that shared his perceived LF brake failure resulting in a spin and crash?

Referring to comments in BMR thread in Road Course section. Perhaps the same event? Is there a thread posted on this specifically? Thx!

[TheRealJA105]

Yes this is the same event with Sam Strano

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Yes this is the same event with Sam Strano

Has Sam posted about it somewhere on the forum?

[TheRealJA105]

No i've only seen it in the FB groups

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

No i've only seen it in the FB groups

Has he, or others, offered any clues as to causes and effects? From the limited info I could find seems he had already started modding incl torque arm etc. Previous posts seem to involve ABS module going nuts, but i dont have a clear picture even remotely. Also, he started tracking the car before full break in process, but again, no idea here either. Cheers!

[Mountain]

This isn't my business, but it's already out there and because it is something related to safety, I think it is something that should be brought up. Especially if there are others out there that have witnessed what Sam Strano has; it would be important for those individuals to get with Sam.

So, first off, I think it needs to be clear...
THIS IS NOT AN ICE MODE DISCUSSION

The subject of this thread, as TrackClub posted, is the same of the topic in the FaceBook "1LER" group.

For those not in that group/don't have much activity on FaceBook, here is the information:

Some of you might be aware, I had a major accident yesterday. I have video with data that shows exactly what I knew at the moment. Brake failure.
I cringe when people talk about stock fluid, or stock pads being adequate. I wasn't on stock stuff, and it's pretty obvious something failed in the hydraulic system. Eventually I'll post the video. It isn't easy to watch, for me anyway. And I know I walked away. I had insurance. Unfortunately, when the brakes failed the cars turned hard right and slid sideways and i hit another car, a caged Civic my left side to his right and sent him a long way. And then I rolled, landing upright.

The car is new. It is on great race pads. Or is on a high temp fluid. I had an awesome pedal and power the corner before, no hint of trouble. I know what boiling fluid is like. I know what pads fasting is like. I also know what pressure loss is like from having had MC's fail in my 2001 Camaro and a whole bunch of folks have had them fail in C6's. But that was autocrossing. This was at just over 100mph.

The car had less than 1700 miles on it. I was wearing a lightweight helmet. I will, when I get back on a track have a Hybrid Pro H&N some it's the only thing that works with either stock belts or a harness.

Running in a track event it's a risk, most know that. These are modern cars and the structure held up amazingly. The right side door opens and shuts like new. The windshield isn't even cracked.

But. At one point as I was rolling the Camera showed lateral G of 4.5 and since I wasn't on the ground there was more combined than that.
I know I'm lucky. I'm concerned as to what failed and why but since the LF wheel was ripped off that brake line is clearly not going to show what i think happened which was either a LF line failure (stock lines, again a new car), or a MC failure of the LF/RR circuit because i went from easily over 1g decel to max .3 with an instant right turn. Over .5g lateral at 88mph. Long before turn in point.

Be. Careful. Use all the safety stuff you can. Realize that even if you have no issue the guy behind you may.
I like track stuff. I love TT as I consider it safer competing that wheel to wheel where you are diving and dicing, etc. I wasn't up the guy in front butt, about 2 seconds back.

I loved the car. I might get another. But this failure and the accident should serve as a lesson to all that this stuff is serious, and you can be hurt, or worse. I'm really badly beaten up, the car looks like a ball of paper. The lap before was a quick and no drama. The corner before was. All good, until it wasn't.

By the way, this is also why, if you are being caught quickly, let the guy go. Here in this case I wasn't eating the guy up and had a few second half that was closing steadily but not massively. But last time I caught someone, in a quicker car but on a tire cool down lap, so fast over the course of my hot lap, the collision avoidance warning went nuts. I get that you were a little faster and qualifed higher, but when i start a lap with no car in sight in front and barely a speck by turn 7, by the end collision avoidance should not be freaking out into the last brake zone.

Furthermore

I don't want to get deeply into this on social media. No good can come with it to be very honest with you.

Here is what I know didn't happen. No bleeders were loose. No brake pads fell out. It wasn't ice mode which is something that drives me absolutely nuts because that isn't really a thing on its own without being invited by generally some ham-footed person driving the car sideways and then slamming straight through the brake pedal. I've been there I've done it I've driven cars where people complain about it and had no issue with it and then watch the driver make it happen five times on a run where I had no problem doing it on a faster run. The problem with everybody talking about ice mode is it becomes the little boy who cried wolf. And it doesn't get us anywhere when you start talking about brake issues down the road with people who might be able to help.

Having said that There was a brake failure. And what I mean failure I mean there were no brakes. Nobody been a tiny little bit on one of the circuits kind of hard to tell when your foot pretty much just goes to the floor and you do not slow down and you try a second time and your foot goes to the floor and you do not slow down and at that point I was pretty busy wondering how hard I was going to hit this other guy and if I was going to survive it or if he was going to survive it.

Here's what I would ask. If anybody knows of 1LEs that were on a minimum of stock pads, and had decent fluid in them, and had the brake pedal disappear especially if it happened in one corner, it didn't get soft and drop away over the course of a run or anything like that, get in contact with me.

No the bleeders were not leaking. Yes I have video Yes that video has data. No I cannot make it public. Maybe someday but not right now

Sam is a highly, highly competent racer with experience across a large variety of vehicle platforms in road course and autocross driving.

Keeping in mind that he is likely going through the procedures with his track warranty and GM; it would be great if people refrained from asking him a bunch of questions. I am sure he will give an update once his predicament is settled out.

What I can say, is that this seems to be something very, very, very rare... I certainly have never heard of this, nor have I witnessed it (and I hope I and anyone else never does).

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Has he, or others, offered any clues as to causes and effects? From the limited info I could find seems he had already started modding incl torque arm etc. Previous posts seem to involve ABS module going nuts, but i dont have a clear picture even remotely. Also, he started tracking the car before full break in process, but again, no idea here either. Cheers!

It sounds like something related to half of the car's hydraulic circuit.

[Msquared]

One thing that's either good or bad about modern cars (depending on circumstances) is that the modules will probably have stored a lot of data that would help GM figure out what happened.

[TrackClub]

Well Sam's theory is either a brake line busted, or master cylinder failed. Those would be two easiest (and logical) theories anyway. But, who knows, there might be other causes as well depending on to what extend electronics can play a role (if they do).

I think there was at least one other case of pedal to the floor reported in the old thread. Some offeres a sticky vacuum valve as a potential cause. But frankly this is completely over my head. Given early failures were reported going back to 2016 cars, if it was a systemic issue GM would have surely fixed it by now.

An interesting aspect of Sam's accident was that a wheel came off ripping a brake line with it. That's highly unusual imo. It would be interesting to know if it was a stock wheel or not. He appeared to have been testing different tires on different rims. It would also be interesting to know what else came off with the wheel and whether the latter was in one piece, or not. And obviously when did it come off. Lots of possible dots to connect here.

Bottom line, i am glad he is fine. Testament of Camaros safety for damn sure. But also a troubling issue not really knowing for sure what happened and why.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Pedals going to the floor would mean a loss of brake fluid or ingestion of air into the system (air could have already been there hiding in a bubble). Brakes just don't do these things for no reason.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Pedals going to the floor would mean a loss of brake fluid or ingestion of air into the system (air could have already been there hiding in a bubble). Brakes just don't do these things for no reason.

Well that is stating the obvious

Could be a catastrophic line failure (various reasons possible here)
Could be an MC fault
Could be a caliper falling out
Could be electronics if they play a role (dont know)
Could be a wheel falling off
Etc.

We need a GM engineer to list possible causes and then try to match the most probable one to the actual situation. The one i dont understand is a wheel being ripped off and taking a brake line with it. Unless a whole hub came apart.