[1fujifilm]

Originally Posted by Staves

I don’t recall seeing a Camaro ad on TV or elsewhere ever.

Really no need to, literally only about 3,000 Camaros available in the whole U.S.A.

Not standing up for GM either, a big fan but bought a a new 20 Passat yesterday for 30% off for $16.8 plus tax/title. Better car, cheaper and better warranty than Malibu..sad. Had $1,900 in GM Card funds too..still there.

Bear

[95 imp]

It's Satan speaking to you. Stay away from the Dodge Bros.!

As a side note, I notice they were bowties..... Are they closet Chevy fans?

[USAFS197]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

35% of C7s were sold with a manual in an era when the manual take rate on cars in North America in general is about 5%. It was NOT an old method. Stop believing that crap. GM f'd up big time here

Why do people continue to completely miss the point on manuals? You own one right? Seriously, WTF????

For this car? Absolutely not. Previously, I would opt for a manual transmission over certain automatic variants but, I specifically sought out an A8 for my 2019 Z06. Knowing that the DCT in the C8 will be hard to beat in general, I understood that the only way to keep the performance gap relatively tight on track or even on the street, is with an A8. I only care about performance, not the "feeling" I get when I shift gears. Is it satisfying to row gears? Absolutely. But not satisfying enough to overlook the performance benefits of going with an A8.

At the end of the day, we all purchase our vehicles for different reasons and to satisfy different aspects of our lives. For me, this was a daily driver, much as my 2018 SS 1LE was. My SS 1LE only came with a manual transmission but I often said that the A10 would make that car perfect to me. Now, for 2021, that's a reality but, I highly doubt I'll ever go back to owning a Camaro--at least in this generation. I really don't want anything analog in my vehicles and I know that chides the purists who want things to be completely analog.

But, with respect to the C8 and the representation it was attempting to have, reducing it's performance capabilities because some folks want to cling to the past seems awfully short sighted. Again, there's plenty of C7 and older generation vehicles available out there that still adhere to that old recipe. You're free to get that and let the rest of us jump on that train towards progress.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

For this car? Absolutely not. Previously, I would opt for a manual transmission over certain automatic variants but, I specifically sought out an A8 for my 2019 Z06. Knowing that the DCT in the C8 will be hard to beat in general, I understood that the only way to keep the performance gap relatively tight on track or even on the street, is with an A8. I only care about performance, not the "feeling" I get when I shift gears. Is it satisfying to row gears? Absolutely. But not satisfying enough to overlook the performance benefits of going with an A8.

At the end of the day, we all purchase our vehicles for different reasons and to satisfy different aspects of our lives. For me, this was a daily driver, much as my 2018 SS 1LE was. My SS 1LE only came with a manual transmission but I often said that the A10 would make that car perfect to me. Now, for 2021, that's a reality but, I highly doubt I'll ever go back to owning a Camaro--at least in this generation. I really don't want anything analog in my vehicles and I know that chides the purists who want things to be completely analog.

But, with respect to the C8 and the representation it was attempting to have, reducing it's performance capabilities because some folks want to cling to the past seems awfully short sighted. Again, there's plenty of C7 and older generation vehicles available out there that still adhere to that old recipe. You're free to get that and let the rest of us jump on that train towards progress.

It has nothing to do with being stuck in the past. You clearly have no idea why people prefer manuals and it is pointless to argue with you. We’re not stupid, short sighted, or stuck in the past. We get that automatics are *minimally* faster than manuals. Offer automatics for those who don’t care. Like you.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

We get that automatics are *minimally* faster than manuals. Offer automatics for those who don’t care. Like you.

Or, aren't coordinated enough to actually pull it off....

[USAFS197]

You're both making some hard assumptions. I understand the appeal of driving a car with a manual transmission if that's what you enjoy but as I stated twice already, there are plenty of older examples of these cars that you can get to still suit your desires. The C8 wasn't designed to be utilized around feelings and old tech, in case that wasn't evidenced by the change in engine placement--however, quite the shame that they decided to remain with a pushrod engine for their base model vehicle. Likely a cost saving measure and easier for die hards to digest for this immediate change.

I digress, however. No one who has ever seen me utilize a manual transmission, to include Pray (Brett), would agree to the sentiment that I cannot properly or very quickly shift my vehicle. I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase another manual transmission car but if the car has the option of a modern automatic, or even better, a DCT, I'll opt for that every single time and never look back. I enjoy efficiency. And as it was so eloquently put, it is indeed pointless to argue with you.

[Bob RS]

I live in Pittsburgh, and I see so many Chargers and Challengers there like a dime a dozen here. Camaro on the other hand if I'm lucky I might see one or two a day and from driving one the car does turn heads. I guess it's nice to drive a car you don't see to many of.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

You're both making some hard assumptions. I understand the appeal of driving a car with a manual transmission if that's what you enjoy but as I stated twice already, there are plenty of older examples of these cars that you can get to still suit your desires. The C8 wasn't designed to be utilized around feelings and old tech, in case that wasn't evidenced by the change in engine placement--however, quite the shame that they decided to remain with a pushrod engine for their base model vehicle. Likely a cost saving measure and easier for die hards to digest for this immediate change.

I digress, however. No one who has ever seen me utilize a manual transmission, to include Pray (Brett), would agree to the sentiment that I cannot properly or very quickly shift my vehicle. I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase another manual transmission car but if the car has the option of a modern automatic, or even better, a DCT, I'll opt for that every single time and never look back. I enjoy efficiency. And as it was so eloquently put, it is indeed pointless to argue with you.

The thing is that people specifically may want a mid-engine Corvette in manual. So it's definitely disappointing.

And honestly, other than not revving high, I don't see much wrong with a pushrod engine. The low-end torque makes it easy to daily drive, and efficient on the highway. If you want a DOHC, supposedly the Z06 will have it. Don't do new just for the sake of being new, have a good reason for it.

I enjoy efficiency as well when I am doing work. Driving is not working for me, therefore, what efficiency? Fun is rarely about efficiency.

Heck I owned an RX-8 that's about as efficient on gas as the Camaro SS with half the peak power and 1/3 of the peak torque. Yeah it would be nice to be better on gas but it's still fun.

Besides, if you really care about efficiency, I think a hybrid or EV may be better suited for that goal. That's the thing with an AT/DCT/CVT IMO, it really achieves neither fun or efficiency: the manual has the fun factor going for it(subjective, but it's there), while EV and hybrids are more efficient than an ICE with two pedals.

For most people that drive on the street or just do casual competitive driving(like me), a hypothetical MT C8 is still plenty. You are still faster than most cars on the street. That's why I love it when someone in an Accord goes like "mAnUaLs ArE sLoWeR!" Yeah, my "slow" manual Camaro SS can still sweep the streets with your Accord, so shut it.

Sent from toaster or something

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

You're both making some hard assumptions. I understand the appeal of driving a car with a manual transmission if that's what you enjoy but as I stated twice already, there are plenty of older examples of these cars that you can get to still suit your desires. The C8 wasn't designed to be utilized around feelings and old tech, in case that wasn't evidenced by the change in engine placement--however, quite the shame that they decided to remain with a pushrod engine for their base model vehicle. Likely a cost saving measure and easier for die hards to digest for this immediate change.

I digress, however. No one who has ever seen me utilize a manual transmission, to include Pray (Brett), would agree to the sentiment that I cannot properly or very quickly shift my vehicle. I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase another manual transmission car but if the car has the option of a modern automatic, or even better, a DCT, I'll opt for that every single time and never look back. I enjoy efficiency. And as it was so eloquently put, it is indeed pointless to argue with you.

Still completely missing the point. Jeeze!

[Staves]

Originally Posted by 1fujifilm

Really no need to, literally only about 3,000 Camaros available in the whole U.S.A.

LOL. Like that has any significance. There's less demand for Camaros, hence less production/supply.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

The C8 wasn't designed to be utilized around feelings and old tech, in case that wasn't evidenced by the change in engine placement--however, quite the shame that they decided to remain with a pushrod engine for their base model vehicle. Likely a cost saving measure and easier for die hards to digest for this immediate change.

What's wrong with the pushrod engine again, apart from not being as "popular" and "hip" as DOHC? And even that is moot, because electric motors are way more "modern" and efficident anyway. The LT2 engine is physically quite small despite its 6162 ccm displacement, and of course GM also have to think of overall cost when they are to sell a 500 hp mid-engine sports car under $60K.

Also, IMO said die-hards weren't shocked by the engine placement choice that has been discussed and prototyped for half a century. Change in itself is not a merit and does not carry intrinsic value, especially when they're simply l'art pour l'art... there are lots of great changes, such as the mid-engine layout for the C8 due to the several advantages and of course the necessity to push the envelope even further, but not every change qualifies automatically for that label.

Originally Posted by USAFS197

I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase another manual transmission car but if the car has the option of a modern automatic, or even better, a DCT, I'll opt for that every single time and never look back. I enjoy efficiency. And as it was so eloquently put, it is indeed pointless to argue with you.

It's only pointless if your sole goal with the argument is to "win" it, that is, somehow coerce the other person to concede one hundred percent and start saying the exact same things that you do. This is not what arguments are for, they are supposed to broaden the horizon for everyone involved.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

What's wrong with the pushrod engine again, apart from not being as "popular" and "hip" as DOHC?

Since DOHC engines actually pre-date the GM OHV small block by about 30 years I was waiting for him to at least admit to that but Nope.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Since DOHC engines actually pre-date the GM OHV small block by about 30 years I was waiting for him to at least admit to that but Nope.

Not 30 years, generally about the same time.

But you are correct as the OHC is a pretty old configuration. They are both well over 100 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_valve_engine

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Not 30 years, generally about the same time.

But you are correct as the OHC is a pretty old configuration. They are both well over 100 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_valve_engine

That's a little convoluted.

In real applications the first OHC motor was made by Peugeot for the 1912 Grand Prix.

GM developed the first real OHV engine in the 1940s. Prior to that all productions cars used flat heads.

So yeah roughly 30 years.