[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In GM Planning world, it was an option. It may not have stayed “on the table” very long, but it was an option. Pretty much the starting point. The decision to go IRS and the desire to reduce mass significantly eliminated it pretty quickly.

I'm confused by "decision to go IRS" - 5th gen was always IRS.

Most 5th gen complaints were from F-body owners, so size and weight were the biggest complaints. It's funny that the 5th gen owners complain about the 6th gen being too small as all previous generations were significantly smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. The rest of us non-5th gen owners are extremely happy to have a smaller and lighter 6th gen, and while I don't yet own one, it is still in the near future (just waiting on final top dog configuration - if any different than current ZL1/ZLE options).

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

That's my real life buddy Patrick's article btw... he's a diehard Mopar guy and he's got more seat time in Hellcats than anyone on this site...

Yea he is either on one of the FB groups or the .org forum for Hellcats.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Ok. Great!

I'm thinking about the rising cost as these cars have advance.

Hellcat/ZL1 => Hellcat wide-body => Redeye wide-body/GT500.

$65k is a lot for a car. Moving to $80 or $90k (Redeye)

Originally Posted by newmoon

The pricing is ridiculous IMO. Spending 75k-90k for a new or late model Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger is crazy. Think about what you could be driving lightly used for that kind of money.

These cars come with a lot of tech, features, options, etc that costed lots of money and time to develop and bring to the market. So the prices will continue to increase. I do agree tho that there is a huge disparity between the cost and practicality of these RWD platforms. Which is why I cannot justify spending $90K for a Redeye. At the same price I can get a luxury vehicle with AWD or a SUV like the X5m, X6m, Trackhawk, and others and have something much more practical for everyday use.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think that is a fair assessment wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Keeping S550 around does not equate to not doing anything with the architecture. It is most likely that Ford has simply scaled back how much change they want to make in the next gen Mustang to fit within the parameters of a major upgrade, as opposed to a new platform or architecture. Automakers do that all the time. S550(2) could be a significantly improved product in the ‘22 - ‘23 timeframe.

Perhaps I wrote my comment incorrectly but the S650 is what will be growing in size. Not the S550. I doubt there will be any substantial changes. The next Gen should see a bigger size and heavier weight.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I don't remember everything he has posted, but I think he's trying to call you out because you talk big and constantly talk about how the Mustang is a failure. He's basically smack talking you, which isn't necessarily the same as telling someone they are beneath you as you've done multiple times. My biggest gripe with that coming from you is you're not a racer, yet you act like going around a track is the end all be all for these cars, and forget that most will never touch a track or drag strip.

No I fully believe that you do remember everything he posted and has said on here. You have no gripe with me. This is the internet and I fully express my opinions. If you dislike it that much then why did you come over here after reading the comments, sign up, and then engage me in this thread? If you know how the internet and forums in particular work and if you have that much dislike for what I have to say then you should have never came to a Camaro site with your Mustang in the first place. So don't give me that crap. I said it before, YOU chose to come here. As a Camaro site you should have known what to expect. And like I said before, why do you think I avoid Mustang sites at all costs? For all I know they could be saying the most horrible things about the ZL1 or even me for that matter and I am completely oblivious to it and don't even care about what goes on over there. Yet here you are. LOL!! And I don't have to be a "racer" to debate these vehicles. I've been on this forum since 2012 and there has never been any stipulations that only "racers" can discuss these cars. I bought the ZL1 and Hellcat for their performance and because I wanted the best car at their MSRP and that was related to what they can do at the track. That is why I bought them. I don't give a damn about actually racing them. There are enough reviews and enough other people out there racing them that we all know what they can do. And smack talk is smack talk. He talks big about racing and I talk big about being better than him. If you're gonna criticize one then criticize both.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I'm confused by "decision to go IRS" - 5th gen was always IRS.

Most 5th gen complaints were from F-body owners, so size and weight were the biggest complaints. It's funny that the 5th gen owners complain about the 6th gen being too small as all previous generations were significantly smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. The rest of us non-5th gen owners are extremely happy to have a smaller and lighter 6th gen, and while I don't yet own one, it is still in the near future (just waiting on final top dog configuration - if any different than current ZL1/ZLE options).

No, I’m the one that was confused. I was mixing two different reviews with Engineering drawn from my challenged memory. One review was my team doing a “post production” assessment of how 5th Gen powertrain execution had done compared to what we had projected for them. One of our conclusions was that given the powertrain choices that were made, it was worth the added weight of the IRS, since the powertrain was able to overcome the mass disadvantage and still deliver class leading performance. The other was in the planning stages for 6th Gen where mass reduction ideas were being floated and the general feeling was “don’t even think about not having IRS”.

If you’re planning to buy the top dog 6th Gen configuration, get out your checkbook. It’s already here. ZL1 1LE. GM has already said that Al O. had already finished the 6th Gen rollout before he moved to his new job. I don’t see them changing course.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I'm confused by "decision to go IRS" - 5th gen was always IRS.

Most 5th gen complaints were from F-body owners, so size and weight were the biggest complaints. It's funny that the 5th gen owners complain about the 6th gen being too small as all previous generations were significantly smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. The rest of us non-5th gen owners are extremely happy to have a smaller and lighter 6th gen, and while I don't yet own one, it is still in the near future (just waiting on final top dog configuration - if any different than current ZL1/ZLE options).

Yes there were lots of complaints about the size and weight of the 5th Gen. It was remarkable that the 6th Gen ZL1 was able to come in at it's weight despite all the standard options it has. But it sacrificed size. And now people complain about that. I think the same thing happened with iphone users. Back 10 or so years ago the trend was that phones were getting smaller. And then all of a sudden people realized that bigger phones had bigger screens for watching movies and videos so the trend did a complete shift. And now phones are huge as hell. I think people needed to actually see the differences to realize what they really wanted. Same thing is happening to cars now. They all wanted a smaller Camaro. They got a smaller Camaro and now realize how cramped it is and that they can't do header installs in 2 hours with basic hand tools. So now they wanna go back to larger vehicles. Which is probably why the Mustang S650 will likely be larger. So I think GM needs to shift gears either this upcoming 7th Gen or the following Gen and offer a larger roomier Camaro with better visibility and that can handle well for it's size and people will be happy again.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No I fully believe that you do remember everything he posted and has said on here. You have no gripe with me. This is the internet and I fully express my opinions. If you dislike it that much then why did you come over here after reading the comments, sign up, and then engage me in this thread? If you know how the internet and forums in particular work and if you have that much dislike for what I have to say then you should have never came to a Camaro site with your Mustang in the first place. So don't give me that crap. I said it before, YOU chose to come here. As a Camaro site you should have known what to expect. And like I said before, why do you think I avoid Mustang sites at all costs? For all I know they could be saying the most horrible things about the ZL1 or even me for that matter and I am completely oblivious to it and don't even care about what goes on over there. Yet here you are. LOL!! And I don't have to be a "racer" to debate these vehicles. I've been on this forum since 2012 and there has never been any stipulations that only "racers" can discuss these cars. I bought the ZL1 and Hellcat for their performance and because I wanted the best car at their MSRP and that was related to what they can do at the track. That is why I bought them. I don't give a damn about actually racing them. There are enough reviews and enough other people out there racing them that we all know what they can do. And smack talk is smack talk. He talks big about racing and I talk big about being better than him. If you're gonna criticize one then criticize both.

I've owned multiple F bodies and spent countless hours modifying and working on them, so I have the history, as stated before. Growing up, Ford was "fix or repair daily" or "found on road dead". So I enjoy the debates with reasonable people 'cause I've been on both sides. I don't remember everything you or anyone has typed on here. The fact you can't distinguish the difference between a little trash talk and bragging about how you are a better man is further proof you can't argue logically. Practically all the other guys on here are reasonable. Sort of like before, there comes a time when it's no longer interesting to engage, and now is one of those times with you.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I've owned multiple F bodies and spent countless hours modifying and working on them, so I have the history, as stated before. Growing up, Ford was "fix or repair daily" or "found on road dead". So I enjoy the debates with reasonable people 'cause I've been on both sides. I don't remember everything you or anyone has typed on here. The fact you can't distinguish the difference between a little trash talk and bragging about how you are a better man is further proof you can't argue logically. Practically all the other guys on here are reasonable. Sort of like before, there comes a time when it's no longer interesting to engage, and now is one of those times with you.

Sadly, this has not seemed to have changed much since I got in the game in the late 90's.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No, I’m the one that was confused. I was mixing two different reviews with Engineering drawn from my challenged memory. One review was my team doing a “post production” assessment of how 5th Gen powertrain execution had done compared to what we had projected for them. One of our conclusions was that given the powertrain choices that were made, it was worth the added weight of the IRS, since the powertrain was able to overcome the mass disadvantage and still deliver class leading performance. The other was in the planning stages for 6th Gen where mass reduction ideas were being floated and the general feeling was “don’t even think about not having IRS”.

If you’re planning to buy the top dog 6th Gen configuration, get out your checkbook. It’s already here. ZL1 1LE. GM has already said that Al O. had already finished the 6th Gen rollout before he moved to his new job. I don’t see them changing course.

All good, thanks for the clarification

I'm still crossing my fingers for a last ditch LT5 6th gen, but I know that the probability is extremely low to nill (one can hope though).

If not, I will pick up a ZL1 (non-1LE), then add 1LE rims and tires for track use, and the SS 1LE spoiler (I much prefer it over the big wing). This will get me within ZLE stock territory, but I can keep the Mag ride for cruising/highway touring.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yes there were lots of complaints about the size and weight of the 5th Gen. It was remarkable that the 6th Gen ZL1 was able to come in at it's weight despite all the standard options it has. But it sacrificed size. And now people complain about that. I think the same thing happened with iphone users. Back 10 or so years ago the trend was that phones were getting smaller. And then all of a sudden people realized that bigger phones had bigger screens for watching movies and videos so the trend did a complete shift. And now phones are huge as hell. I think people needed to actually see the differences to realize what they really wanted. Same thing is happening to cars now. They all wanted a smaller Camaro. They got a smaller Camaro and now realize how cramped it is and that they can't do header installs in 2 hours with basic hand tools. So now they wanna go back to larger vehicles. Which is probably why the Mustang S650 will likely be larger. So I think GM needs to shift gears either this upcoming 7th Gen or the following Gen and offer a larger roomier Camaro with better visibility and that can handle well for it's size and people will be happy again.

I disagree - I have no use for the bigger is better in the sports car world. Smaller and lighter is the best way to achieve performance, especially for tires and brakes cost. 7th gen should still approach at least the same weight as the 6th gen, and give it lower belt-lines for higher visibility. A little better overall interior packaging within the same space to help out with rear seat leg room would be great.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Sadly, this has not seemed to have changed much since I got in the game in the late 90's.

Yeah, I'm not a Ford guy, I just happen to like the current Mustang GT offering a lot, as well as the higher performing trims. This is my first Ford, and I like that it doesn't have the blue oval on it anywhere. Sort of went the way of the Ram without the manufacturers branding specifically on the car. Ford sells a lot of trucks and the explorer isn't bad looking, but everything else...meh or worse (except the Focus RS is fairly impressive for a hot hatch).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yea he is either on one of the FB groups or the .org forum for Hellcats.


These cars come with a lot of tech, features, options, etc that costed lots of money and time to develop and bring to the market. So the prices will continue to increase. I do agree tho that there is a huge disparity between the cost and practicality of these RWD platforms. Which is why I cannot justify spending $90K for a Redeye. At the same price I can get a luxury vehicle with AWD or a SUV like the X5m, X6m, Trackhawk, and others and have something much more practical for everyday use.

Absolutely.

Agreed, the cars do come with an absurd amount of technology in them. But I fear that eventually they are going to lose track of what they were. The Mustang and Camaro have always offered affordable performance if the top trims keep creeping up and up IMO they will no longer be what they always were. I still think a 40K+ Mustang GT/CamaroSS / Challenger 392 is absurd.

Good we agree on the 350/R lets go get a beer!

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If you’re planning to buy the top dog 6th Gen configuration, get out your checkbook. It’s already here. ZL1 1LE. GM has already said that Al O. had already finished the 6th Gen rollout before he moved to his new job. I don’t see them changing course.

I kind of figured the ZLE was going to be the top dog of the 6th gen.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yes there were lots of complaints about the size and weight of the 5th Gen. It was remarkable that the 6th Gen ZL1 was able to come in at it's weight despite all the standard options it has. But it sacrificed size. And now people complain about that. I think the same thing happened with iphone users. Back 10 or so years ago the trend was that phones were getting smaller. And then all of a sudden people realized that bigger phones had bigger screens for watching movies and videos so the trend did a complete shift. And now phones are huge as hell. I think people needed to actually see the differences to realize what they really wanted. Same thing is happening to cars now. They all wanted a smaller Camaro. They got a smaller Camaro and now realize how cramped it is and that they can't do header installs in 2 hours with basic hand tools. So now they wanna go back to larger vehicles. Which is probably why the Mustang S650 will likely be larger. So I think GM needs to shift gears either this upcoming 7th Gen or the following Gen and offer a larger roomier Camaro with better visibility and that can handle well for it's size and people will be happy again.

Going back to what you said about cost I wonder if the manufacturers have realized this may be the peak or close to it of what these cars can do while maintaining the affordability that keeps them in reach of the everyman. While I am sure they will still offer incredible performance I don't know how much further they can go while staying true to what they are

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Most 5th gen complaints were from F-body owners, so size and weight were the biggest complaints. It's funny that the 5th gen owners complain about the 6th gen being too small as all previous generations were significantly smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. The rest of us non-5th gen owners are extremely happy to have a smaller and lighter 6th gen, and while I don't yet own one, it is still in the near future (just waiting on final top dog configuration - if any different than current ZL1/ZLE options).

I owned a 5th gen, and I've ridden in plenty of other generation Camaros. I think the single biggest difference is how the cars were laid out. There wasn't nearly as much tech or extra airbags, sensors, padding, etc.. so it does take up space. I'm roughly 6'3" standing up, but when I sit down, I'm about the equivalent of someone that's 6'7" or 6'8" due to my shoe size. Trust me, the 5th gen was much roomier inside, and I think many people miss that.

Not to mention, there was a ton of open space under the hood in the 5th gen....and there isnt in the 6th gen...so they definitely removed a lot of wasted space..

And there will be no LT5 modeled 6th gen...so you can go ahead and pick yourself up a 6th gen or wait for the 7th..

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

th gen should still approach at least the same weight as the 6th gen, and give it lower belt-lines for higher visibility. A little better overall interior packaging within the same space to help out with rear seat leg room would be great.

Already expect that we'll see something along these very lines...because that would eliminate virtually all the negatives while improving the overall performance.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I've owned multiple F bodies and spent countless hours modifying and working on them, so I have the history, as stated before. Growing up, Ford was "fix or repair daily" or "found on road dead". So I enjoy the debates with reasonable people 'cause I've been on both sides. I don't remember everything you or anyone has typed on here. The fact you can't distinguish the difference between a little trash talk and bragging about how you are a better man is further proof you can't argue logically. Practically all the other guys on here are reasonable. Sort of like before, there comes a time when it's no longer interesting to engage, and now is one of those times with you.

Sure bro. Sure. A little trash talk. Sure. So when he threatened me that was just a little trash talk. And his PMs to me giving me his address and cursing at me and telling me to come to his house to fight, that's all just a little trash talk also right? When he insulted those of us here who comment on this thread, that was all just a little trash talk?

Here's the thing...it's all just a little trash talk until someone strikes a nerve and someone gets insulted and then it gets personal. I have on numerous occasions said that I have nothing against Mustang owners and that my criticism were towards the car itself. You chose to ignore the many times I said that because it does not fit the picture you wanted to paint about me. I even said that there are a few Mustang owners on here that I enjoy debating with and named some of them. And I even mentioned the time that one of them messaged me because I was upset about something. You ignored all of that because you are pissed that I have such disgust for the Mustang. LOL!! And the only real time I came at you was when you threw an insult at several of us. So maybe you need to look at yourself dude. And for the record, GSJ started the whole nonsense calling people out about racing. He did that several times on here way before you even signed up. And he did it a few months ago. He talked down to everyone on here many times. I took it as trash talk and I replied with my own trash talk. I talked down to him. He got upset and took it further. So my advice, if you can't handle it, which he obviously can't, then don't start it. But for you to sit here judging me and giving him a pass is hypocritical of you and that is starting to become a trend with you.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sure bro. Sure. A little trash talk. Sure. So when he threatened me that was just a little trash talk. And his PMs to me giving me his address and cursing at me and telling me to come to his house to fight, that's all just a little trash talk also right? When he insulted those of us here who comment on this thread, that was all just a little trash talk?

Here's the thing...it's all just a little trash talk until someone strikes a nerve and someone gets insulted and then it gets personal. I have on numerous occasions said that I have nothing against Mustang owners and that my criticism were towards the car itself. You chose to ignore the many times I said that because it does not fit the picture you wanted to paint about me. I even said that there are a few Mustang owners on here that I enjoy debating with and named some of them. And I even mentioned the time that one of them messaged me because I was upset about something. You ignored all of that because you are pissed that I have such disgust for the Mustang. LOL!! And the only real time I came at you was when you threw an insult at several of us. So maybe you need to look at yourself dude. And for the record, GSJ started the whole nonsense calling people out about racing. He did that several times on here way before you even signed up. And he did it a few months ago. He talked down to everyone on here many times. I took it as trash talk and I replied with my own trash talk. I talked down to him. He got upset and took it further. So my advice, if you can't handle it, which he obviously can't, then don't start it. But for you to sit here judging me and giving him a pass is hypocritical of you and that is starting to become a trend with you.

Ok man; whatever. Like I said, no longer interesting to engage. Like I could ever know about his PMs to you. If true, obviously that's not cool.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sure bro. Sure. A little trash talk. Sure. So when he threatened me that was just a little trash talk. And his PMs to me giving me his address and cursing at me and telling me to come to his house to fight, that's all just a little trash talk also right? When he insulted those of us here who comment on this thread, that was all just a little trash talk?

Here's the thing...it's all just a little trash talk until someone strikes a nerve and someone gets insulted and then it gets personal. I have on numerous occasions said that I have nothing against Mustang owners and that my criticism were towards the car itself. You chose to ignore the many times I said that because it does not fit the picture you wanted to paint about me. I even said that there are a few Mustang owners on here that I enjoy debating with and named some of them. And I even mentioned the time that one of them messaged me because I was upset about something. You ignored all of that because you are pissed that I have such disgust for the Mustang. LOL!! And the only real time I came at you was when you threw an insult at several of us. So maybe you need to look at yourself dude. And for the record, GSJ started the whole nonsense calling people out about racing. He did that several times on here way before you even signed up. And he did it a few months ago. He talked down to everyone on here many times. I took it as trash talk and I replied with my own trash talk. I talked down to him. He got upset and took it further. So my advice, if you can't handle it, which he obviously can't, then don't start it. But for you to sit here judging me and giving him a pass is hypocritical of you and that is starting to become a trend with you.

GSJ PMed you his address telling you to come fight him... wow.. if that's true... LOL. I am picturing a 55 yr old man wearing his sons TAPOUT or AFFLICTION shirt.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Yeah, I'm not a Ford guy, I just happen to like the current Mustang GT offering a lot, as well as the higher performing trims. This is my first Ford, and I like that it doesn't have the blue oval on it anywhere. Sort of went the way of the Ram without the manufacturers branding specifically on the car. Ford sells a lot of trucks and the explorer isn't bad looking, but everything else...meh or worse (except the Focus RS is fairly impressive for a hot hatch).

I like the Explorer too, but I rarely see one that doesn't have red and blue lights on the roof and I dont want to be that guy that gets mistaken for a cop. Focus RS is a sweet little ride, I agree.

The S550 GT sure is a good looking car, and when optioned right its a great drag car too.

I am a die hard manual guy, so sadly Ford hasn't put much out for guys like me. The GT looks good, I like the 5.0, but the MT-82 is a deal breaker for me, HARD pass.

Really thought I would be in a GT350, LOVE the aggressive styling and think it is a timeless design to be honest. While I think the GT and the GT500 will date like most modern car designs, the softer lines of the GT350 will age very well IMO.

The GT350 does come with that glorious Tremec 6-speed for us manual guys too.....sadly, the Voodoo scares me too much to buy one and the exhaust note has gotten a bit annoying(there are two in my parking garage at work).

When they announced the GT500 was a DCT only, all hopes of a worth while manual offering from Ford went out the window for me personally.

I just feel like they have not really done this generation well, and I think it is my affinity for manuals that leads me to feel that way. If they took a little more time on the GT350, increasing reliability, I would feel completely different I think. The thing is, it has sold so well...they won't make any changes.

I am a bit bitter that Ford didnt offer a better manual in the GT, and I am sure it shows HAHAHA.