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Old 11-30-2020, 09:20 PM   #7939
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I'm starting to really think Ford rushed this car and badly.
That's the main reason I have a hard time with Ford products. The Focus RS was a massive kluge, even though it has potential it seems like some guy's garage project.

Ford has a long history of letting customers do their testing, putting out questionable designs and vehicles. All mfg'ers have their issues though, so pick your poison...
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:28 AM   #7940
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Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
That's the main reason I have a hard time with Ford products. The Focus RS was a massive kluge, even though it has potential it seems like some guy's garage project.

Ford has a long history of letting customers do their testing, putting out questionable designs and vehicles. All mfg'ers have their issues though, so pick your poison...
Yea for sure. With all the problems I see with the GT500 it's hard to imagine paying big bucks for one. If they are capping around 900 to the wheels then they for sure won't be much of a match for most of the competition.

I'm wondering if the DCT is an issue at those numbers. I remember we all talked about this months ago and it was mentioned that there was a good reason why most cars with DCT aren't over like 600 HP. WHich is further why I think a DCT in a Mustang was a bad move on Ford's part. Not only did it delay the car, but it also added unnecessary costs and now just might be the limiting factor if it is the weak point. We'll learn more as more people mod them.
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:46 AM   #7941
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After doing a little research, I'm convinced this would be a drivers race. Car and Driver ran 11.4 / 132. I trapped basically the same in what had to be worse conditions. My only 1/4 mile passes in this car were at Camarofest X in what felt like 100 degree heat. If I start at 60 - 70 in 3rd gear, I will probably hook. No lift shift to 4th and I'm thinking I may pull him a bit until the top of 4th. With the big jump from 4th to 5th in the SS m6, if we don't run out of road, he may catch me. Either way, it should be close
I agree. If you're trapping about the same with those crappy 60 foots your car is probably moving pretty quick. Definitely a good race, but your margin or error is thin.
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:10 PM   #7942
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
I did, actually, see my post above which quotes (I missed doing that in my previous post) the post referring to mpgs that I was responding to. My point was mainly to show the cars aren't that far apart on the mpg spectrum. The smaller tank is an issue for range, agreed; however, I wasn't responding to fuel tank size, though. I admit I was a bit aggressive with the "complaining" comment.




HAHAHA barely make one lap w/ 16 gallons? What track is this you are referring to? This is why people laugh at you. Even at 2 mpg, the GT500 could go 32 miles.



Quote from Randy Pobst (per MT article): "The incredible performance capability of these two new Shelbys moves the Mustang into the supercar realm, it pleases me to claim. They will not disappoint. In fact, they both provide such thrills that they are a good value even at these prices, driving with confidence-inspiring and consistent speed that is rare to find at any price."

I'll take his word for it over yours; someone who hasn't even driven one, and obviously not anywhere near the driver Pobst is (none of us are). It doesn't sound like it's an undercooked turkey to me based on a race car driver's take. And it's no secret he likes the Camaros, so that's high praise for the GT500s, IMO.



Agree, 4,059 lbs for the CFTP is heavy. But everyone needs to stop pretending that the ZL1/ZLE is some lightweight in comparison. The ZLE A10 weighs nearly 3,900 lbs. FWIW the regular ZL1 A10 is 3,933 lbs. Also, C&D weighed the base GT500 in a test and it was about 4,150 lbs +/- IIRC (I can't find the article). They weigh their cars w/ full fuel tanks. That said, the DCT is responsible for about 75-100 lbs of those pounds over the A10 IIRC, and the beefier driveline and chassis and brakes are responsible for the rest. If GM gave the ZL1 another 100 hp (ahem, LT5), it would also weigh more than the LT4 version, it's the nature of the higher powered beasts.




I wouldn't pay markup for one, for the record. And, I'd rather have a C7 Z06 or a C8 Z06 over a GT500. That said, I'm perfectly content with my GT and plan to keep it for a long time (2 years and counting).
The gt500 is not as heavy as people are making it out to be (I think people in the real world have been proving its lighter than people think), nor is the zl1 super light. However it is a fact that the zl1 doesn't eat up tires or gas nearly as quickly as the gt500. The zl1 is a proper track car and is regularly used as such, everybody tracking their gt500 can attest to the fact that it is capable of fast laps but is not a sustainable track car.
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:41 PM   #7943
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The gt500 is not as heavy as people are making it out to be (I think people in the real world have been proving its lighter than people think), nor is the zl1 super light.
I think the ZL1 is significantly lighter than the GT500. And more importantly, it is much better balanced.
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However it is a fact that the zl1 doesn't eat up tires or gas nearly as quickly as the gt500. The zl1 is a proper track car and is regularly used as such, everybody tracking their gt500 can attest to the fact that it is capable of fast laps but is not a sustainable track car.
The ZL1 is probably at about the limits of what to expect from a car that has superb track abilities and is fully optioned but also can be driven comfortably on the street. The ZLE is simply a track car that is street-able and street-legal. The GT500 is more like a street car that does pretty decent around a track but only once. It might not seem like a lot to you, but that fact that the GT500 is toast after just 1 lap kinda says a lot about the weight and balance. And the fact that Ford doesn't seem to be confident enough to warranty these cars when they are on a track also says a lot.
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:29 PM   #7944
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I feel like the Mustang tank is realistically only fit for the Ecoboost models. A V8 with a 60 L/15.9 US gal tank isn't gonna be enough. In fact, that's smaller than the gas tank on the Mazda6 2.5T I am driving now. That's the gas tank capacity you find on most midsize Sedans with much smaller engines.

Maybe it was done for weight reduction, but IMO that tank size would make me paranoid on road trips.

Sent from toaster or something
Which makes sense considering the Ecoboost makes up 60-70% of the total cars sold. Sucks for the 30-40%^ of others but for the masses it makes somewhat sense.

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Looks like some of the modded GT500s are already starting to blow TF up. Stangmode's blew up and it was only at about 900 RWHP. And some other one blew up but was over 1100 RWHP. At least so the story goes. 900 RWHP to me is not really a level where these cars should be grenading. So perhaps it was a tuning issue. Or maybe Ford didn't make them as strong as people think they are. The LT4 seems to be good to about 1100 RWHP. If anything the trans is the weak spot at those levels. Kttxz06 made it all the way to about 1200+ to the wheels before the trans finally gave out on his ZL1. I'll probably call it quits around 1000 RWHP. But if the GT500 isn't strong enough to handle that then they're pretty much gonna lose the mod wars. For the record, Hellcats can handle over 1000 RWHP easily as well.

And if I remember, didn't SP also have some issues with his GT500? Looking at all the complaints coming from owners, I'm starting to really think Ford rushed this car and badly.
Always interesting when it comes to modded vehicles blowing up. It can be any number of things, sometimes its just luck. Buddy of mine has 2011 GT, its in the low 9s still on the factory stock 6R80 trans and runs like a champ.

Like you said, could be a tune, could be operator error, could just not be as stout from the factory. Tough part when people blow it up is getting the truth lol

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And the fact that Ford doesn't seem to be confident enough to warranty these cars when they are on a track also says a lot.
Ford has always been wishy washy about that. GM did it right by saying SS and up on track if you are stock you are covered. Major props to them. Ford gets into the nitpicky ticky tacky stuff. Like if you slip and say you were racing against others your screwed but if you are at test n tune it's ok. Its total BS the way Ford words it.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:35 PM   #7945
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Looks like some of the modded GT500s are already starting to blow TF up. Stangmode's blew up and it was only at about 900 RWHP. And some other one blew up but was over 1100 RWHP. At least so the story goes. 900 RWHP to me is not really a level where these cars should be grenading. So perhaps it was a tuning issue. Or maybe Ford didn't make them as strong as people think they are. The LT4 seems to be good to about 1100 RWHP. If anything the trans is the weak spot at those levels. Kttxz06 made it all the way to about 1200+ to the wheels before the trans finally gave out on his ZL1. I'll probably call it quits around 1000 RWHP. But if the GT500 isn't strong enough to handle that then they're pretty much gonna lose the mod wars. For the record, Hellcats can handle over 1000 RWHP easily as well.

And if I remember, didn't SP also have some issues with his GT500? Looking at all the complaints coming from owners, I'm starting to really think Ford rushed this car and badly.
Stangmode's GT500 was 1000 rwhp, FWIW. And who knows why it blew at this point. He hasn't said. I don't watch all his videos but I saw one where he raced a 1200 whp 911 Turbo S, and in the video he said his GT500 was 1000 whp.
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:41 PM   #7946
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Which makes sense considering the Ecoboost makes up 60-70% of the total cars sold. Sucks for the 30-40%^ of others but for the masses it makes somewhat sense.
What is interesting is that the lower trim Camaros and Challengers (4cyl turbo and SXT model respectively) all have the same capacity as their top tier counterparts. The Camaros are 19 gallons while the Challengers are 18.5 gallons. Ford is the only one that put such a small capacity on their Pony Car. Perhaps it was to save costs or for EPA legal stuff...like maybe going with a smaller tank gave them some kind of incentives from the government or something. I don't know. But I doubt they would have gone that route knowing they would be making a 760 HP supercharged 4100 pound version of the Mustang in just 5 years.


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Always interesting when it comes to modded vehicles blowing up. It can be any number of things, sometimes its just luck. Buddy of mine has 2011 GT, its in the low 9s still on the factory stock 6R80 trans and runs like a champ.

Like you said, could be a tune, could be operator error, could just not be as stout from the factory. Tough part when people blow it up is getting the truth lol
I imagine that Ford built the GT500 strong enough to handle a lot and this may have been a tune issue. Or operator issues...like perhaps Stangmode grenaded his car for views and stuff. Or it is just a publicity stunt. It is hard to tell when it comes to YT celebrities and such. I honestly might fall back on ridiculing Ford for this simply because it came from a YTer. These guys always have to be the first to do everything. First to hit 9s, first to tune, first to make 917 RWHP, first to blow up their engine. If it came from a relatively unknown person then it might hold more weight. And considering that SM and SP both are having issues with their Shelbys, I'm gonna go ahead and assume it is just publicity. For now...


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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Ford has always been wishy washy about that. GM did it right by saying SS and up on track if you are stock you are covered. Major props to them. Ford gets into the nitpicky ticky tacky stuff. Like if you slip and say you were racing against others your screwed but if you are at test n tune it's ok. Its total BS the way Ford words it.
It seems like this time the wording is different than what they used with the GT350s and the PP2. It kinda feels like Ford does not want these cars at the track at all. I'll keep my eye out for updates.
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Stangmode's GT500 was 1000 rwhp, FWIW. And who knows why it blew at this point. He hasn't said. I don't watch all his videos but I saw one where he raced a 1200 whp 911 Turbo S, and in the video he said his GT500 was 1000 whp.
Yea I think I mentioned that he is highly modded at this point. I mean, cams and such. Again, I'm starting to wonder if it is just an attention seeking thing or if it is legit. It's just kinda suspicious that him AND SP both are having issues at the same time. And some other dude has a highly modded GT500 and is having issues. These days these YT guys are all looking for new content to keep their viewers hooked. I lost my job, my wife cheated on me, my dog ran away, my daughter is pregnant...and all sorts of other non car related stuff to keep their soap opera going, lol!! Maybe blowing up an engine like the GT500 is the golden ticket for now.
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Old 12-01-2020, 03:37 PM   #7947
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What is interesting is that the lower trim Camaros and Challengers (4cyl turbo and SXT model respectively) all have the same capacity as their top tier counterparts. The Camaros are 19 gallons while the Challengers are 18.5 gallons. Ford is the only one that put such a small capacity on their Pony Car. Perhaps it was to save costs or for EPA legal stuff...like maybe going with a smaller tank gave them some kind of incentives from the government or something. I don't know. But I doubt they would have gone that route knowing they would be making a 760 HP supercharged 4100 pound version of the Mustang in just 5 years.
.
True, don't forget what martin brought up earlier though. The Camaro shares that stuff with Cadillac that needs long range cruising ability and the Challenger shares its platform from way back in the day and is overall a larger car so in a way it makes sense that those cars have larger tanks the Mustang does.

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I imagine that Ford built the GT500 strong enough to handle a lot and this may have been a tune issue. Or operator issues...like perhaps Stangmode grenaded his car for views and stuff. Or it is just a publicity stunt. It is hard to tell when it comes to YT celebrities and such. I honestly might fall back on ridiculing Ford for this simply because it came from a YTer. These guys always have to be the first to do everything. First to hit 9s, first to tune, first to make 917 RWHP, first to blow up their engine. If it came from a relatively unknown person then it might hold more weight. And considering that SM and SP both are having issues with their Shelbys, I'm gonna go ahead and assume it is just publicity. For now...



It seems like this time the wording is different than what they used with the GT350s and the PP2. It kinda feels like Ford does not want these cars at the track at all. I'll keep my eye out for updates.
You would think since the 03/04 were pretty bullet proof as was the 07-14s but like you said who the hell knows.

It does seem a bit different. I think the 350 owners supplement was a little clearer than the 500s is but this is one area Ford was always blah on, no clarity super vague.

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Yea I think I mentioned that he is highly modded at this point. I mean, cams and such. Again, I'm starting to wonder if it is just an attention seeking thing or if it is legit. It's just kinda suspicious that him AND SP both are having issues at the same time. And some other dude has a highly modded GT500 and is having issues. These days these YT guys are all looking for new content to keep their viewers hooked. I lost my job, my wife cheated on me, my dog ran away, my daughter is pregnant...and all sorts of other non car related stuff to keep their soap opera going, lol!! Maybe blowing up an engine like the GT500 is the golden ticket for now.

Gotta keep those social media views up thats how they earn that youtube money!
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:07 PM   #7948
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True, don't forget what martin brought up earlier though. The Camaro shares that stuff with Cadillac that needs long range cruising ability and the Challenger shares its platform from way back in the day and is overall a larger car so in a way it makes sense that those cars have larger tanks the Mustang does.
It is still a bit questionable as to why they would put that small tank when other brands were clearly moving towards more capacity. Sure the touring thing tracks. Maybe the EB has such good MPGs that they didn't need a larger tank. But then you'd think they would have been prepping for the higher tier Mustangs. This might just be another caught with their pants down moment.


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You would think since the 03/04 were pretty bullet proof as was the 07-14s but like you said who the hell knows.
The Termis were strong for their era but they were maxing around 700-ish if memory serves me. And even that was pushing it. I do not think the early S197 GT500s were super strong. It seems like they were also stuck to the 700-ish zip code if that. At 550 crank HP they were only putting down around 440-ish to the wheels. And I don't remember many people blasting them into the 600s or more.The 13s and 14s were good to 800s I believe but not much more than that. They were certainly stronger than the 5th Gen ZL1 internals. But it just seems a bit odd if the current GT500 gets weak in the 900s. That is a bit lower than the competition.
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It does seem a bit different. I think the 350 owners supplement was a little clearer than the 500s is but this is one area Ford was always blah on, no clarity super vague.




Gotta keep those social media views up thats how they earn that youtube money!
I know this is something Ford has always done but it is really silly to take that stance with a car that they know people will want to take to the track. I could see if they pulled this stunt with the lower trims. But not when someone spends $90K on the top trim...just to be told the warranty is void if you take it to the track.
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:41 PM   #7949
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It is still a bit questionable as to why they would put that small tank when other brands were clearly moving towards more capacity. Sure the touring thing tracks. Maybe the EB has such good MPGs that they didn't need a larger tank. But then you'd think they would have been prepping for the higher tier Mustangs. This might just be another caught with their pants down moment.
Seems like the S197 tank was also 16 gallons, so probably just didn't have any more room to put a bigger tank since the S550 is from what I a reworked S197.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:53 PM   #7950
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I imagine that Ford built the GT500 strong enough to handle a lot and this may have been a tune issue. Or operator issues...like perhaps Stangmode grenaded his car for views and stuff. Or it is just a publicity stunt. It is hard to tell when it comes to YT celebrities and such. I honestly might fall back on ridiculing Ford for this simply because it came from a YTer. These guys always have to be the first to do everything. First to hit 9s, first to tune, first to make 917 RWHP, first to blow up their engine. If it came from a relatively unknown person then it might hold more weight. And considering that SM and SP both are having issues with their Shelbys, I'm gonna go ahead and assume it is just publicity. For now...
I would think all these modern factory supercharged engines are pretty strong, but I don't think any manufacturer purposely builds their ~600-700 rwhp engines to contain 1000+ rwhp for permanent, hard repeated use. They can probably handle it for a while, but as a case study: look at what Dodge did for the Redeye version of the Hellcat: Dodge beefed up all of the engine internals just to go from 707 hp to 797 crank hp. Now imagine going up by 300 rwhp how much stronger the internals would need to be to handle that power reliably, in the long term. That's 350 crank hp with no internal changes! Obviously, the stock internals would not be strong enough long term, otherwise, engineers wouldn't have the need to beef up the Hellcat just to go up a "measly" 90 crank hp for the Redeye.

Can these blocks and internals handle high hp? For a while, but really at that power level it's only a matter of time before something bad happens.

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Yea I think I mentioned that he is highly modded at this point. I mean, cams and such. Again, I'm starting to wonder if it is just an attention seeking thing or if it is legit. It's just kinda suspicious that him AND SP both are having issues at the same time. And some other dude has a highly modded GT500 and is having issues. These days these YT guys are all looking for new content to keep their viewers hooked. I lost my job, my wife cheated on me, my dog ran away, my daughter is pregnant...and all sorts of other non car related stuff to keep their soap opera going, lol!! Maybe blowing up an engine like the GT500 is the golden ticket for now.
Yeah, his GT500 has a ported blower and TB, LTs, intake, cams, E85, etc. I don't recall what he did with the fuel system. Stangmode has followers on YT, but not enough to make him rich off his views IMO. Maybe he's trying to take it to the next level with this. He may have enough views to fund some of his high hp desires, though. Certainly not enough to replace the GT500 long block on his dime without it hurting a bit. Another theory I just thought of is maybe he already had a built short block ready to go and is using this stunt to get more clicks.
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:58 PM   #7951
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I know this is something Ford has always done but it is really silly to take that stance with a car that they know people will want to take to the track. I could see if they pulled this stunt with the lower trims. But not when someone spends $90K on the top trim...just to be told the warranty is void if you take it to the track.
I haven't read all the verbiage from Ford, but calling a trim level "Carbon fiber track pack", and then clarifying it's not warrantied for track use is false advertising. I can understand not warrantying for competition use (they can't warranty an actual race car), but not for an amateur track event that is strictly for fun? Lame.
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2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, A10, and MagneRide

K&N CAI Intake, Airflow Solutions ported OEM throttle body and intake manifold, Borla S-type catback w/ Borla H-pipe resonator, MMR lightweight water pump pulley, lightweight SVE R350 wheels

Lightening mods: currently 70 lbs lighter than factory without any drastic changes (i.e., currently on stock rotors, stock battery, stock AC and stereo, full seats, etc.)

Past:
1987 Camaro Z28
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
2007 MazdaSpeed3
Idaho2018GTPremium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 11:35 PM   #7952
jvandy50
 
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Drives: 18 ZL1-1LE, 10 JKU
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: AR
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
I haven't read all the verbiage from Ford, but calling a trim level "Carbon fiber track pack", and then clarifying it's not warrantied for track use is false advertising. I can understand not warrantying for competition use (they can't warranty an actual race car), but not for an amateur track event that is strictly for fun? Lame.
I’m not sure if it changed in 19 or if this is new for 20 models(because its in the 350 manual also), but they definitely made the verbiage different. No longer is the phrase “timed event” used.

Can’t help but think their huge increase in warranty claims forced their hand on this one.
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