[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

You are quite easily triggered.

Well, as I am sure you are aware, tone doesn't always come through keyboard as intended. But to articulate the intent of my tone in words, I am not as angry as that whole tirade reads, more disappointed. I was pretty excited about the PP2, because I felt that brought another configuration with a different purpose to the Mustang lineup from what had been described by Ford. I was hoping this thing would beat the 1LE, and we can see some back and forth between the two automakers. So, I am disappointed from the standpoint that the PP2 is not really a track package (okay, perhaps I was foolish to assume this, you can fault me for that). But, on top of that disappointment, I have to put up with more of the Ford bias by the auto journalists because they are afraid of the Ford fanbois. Why can't they just tell it like it is. They re-tuned the suspension with some of the GT350 bits, which is great. They stuck some track focused tires on it, which is great. Then they forgot the coolers, which is crap. So, now the parts just really don't go together. Which is a fail. Don't try to white wash this fail because you don't want to be labeled Road & Chevy by some internet trolls. Good grief.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Good grief. None of this makes any sense. Ford took some suspension components from the GT350, which is a dedicated track car, added track specific tires that are not good on the street at all, then doesn't put in any coolers for the track, and when the car overheats on the track, the reviewers say, well it's more of a street car anyway. I'm calling BS!!!!

The PP2 was promoted as a skunk works project to go up against the 1LE (a track package car).

The real story here is that the Ford nut jobs have bullied the crap out of anyone who says anything negative about the car. MotorTrend got HAMMERED by the Ford faithful for saying such good things about the 6th Gen Camaro. They called them Chevy Trend. It has been soooo bad that the next MotorTrend H2H video had the guys joking about did they get their check from Chevy yet. AND, in the follow-up to that video when they tested the PP1 to the 1LE, MotorTrend went WAY out of their way to make the Mustang look good, like testing things with "Cowboy Science". WTF is cowboy science you ask? It's just another way of saying "we better find something, ANYTHING, that the Mustang is better at than the Camaro, so we don't get so hammered by the Mustang fans like last time." Let's tell the viewers the Mustang does burnouts better. Really? Did they have trouble getting the SS to do a burnout or something? Or, the Mustang exhaust sounds way better. Really, they both sound great to me. You may prefer one over the other, but WAY better? Come on. Or, let's take it out to a dry lake bed so we can have enough room for the Mustang to eventually go faster... At the end of the first half of the video, they said, well if these were the only tests the Mustang would win. WHEN would those be the only tests in any comprehensive review of the performance of the cars?? What about 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad, figure-8, track times? It's totally clear they were cherry picking some data points that they felt they could claim as a victory for the Mustang just to get the crazy nut jobs off their backs.

Anyone who has been watching these H2H's for a while could see through this crap. They were just trying not to hurt the Mustang fan's feelings.

Now R&T and Ford are trying to claim that the PP2 wasn't meant for going to the track, even though it comes with tires that are terrible on the street but great on the track, just to get a lap time that is closer to the 1LE (a track package car).

If the PP2 is a a street package, why the track tires? If the PP2 is a street package, why does it even exist at all? Would't it be better to make the base car a softer ride, and the PP1 a bit stiffer for folks who want to canyon carve? Why have a PP2 at all? Also, why is the PP2 manual only? What, you can't canyon carve in with an auto transmission? Are automatic cars terrible on the street or something?

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, IT'S A FREAKING DUCK!

As I said first. NONE of this narrative makes sense.

The narrative that DOES makes sense is, the PP2 was meant to be the answer to the 1LE, a track package car that keeps embarrassing the Mustang on the track, but Ford didn't want the engineers spending too much money on R&D, so they used existing parts from the GT350 and track specific tires to get a certain lap time. The engineers didn't have money to spend developing coolers necessary for the track, or other fun track toys like the Performance Data Recorder, or different levels of performance traction management, let alone a torque vectoring eDiff.

I know what a duck is, and the PP2 was developed to get a track time in the same ballpark as the 1LE. And it probably will get a great track time, but it seems it can only do that for a lap or two, which is useless. And now, magazines are bending over backwards to misrepresent the intent of the package so they don't hurt all the bullies feelings...

And before anyone tries to reply with the whole "well it was designed for the street, if you want to track it, you should modify it to put the coolers on", let me just say, then why did they choose these tires for a street package? What, a guy who can put a bunch of coolers in the car can't change the tires to a track tire too? Nonsense.

Said this over here:

Originally Posted by Mountain

The interesting thing is this:

The top Ford engineers on Mustang, in interviews lately, seem to give the impression they don't care at all about what Camaro is doing.

But then you come out with something like the PP2? Why? "To give customers a more thrilling experience"?

But... you put very wide Michelin Sport Cups on the car, go through the effort to completely retune the vehicle dynamics (ABS/TC/Stability/MRC), tweak the chassis/suspension (bracing and bushings) and lower the car a fair amount (with new springs). That's all a lot of effort and money just to offer "a more thrilling experience".

GTFO.

You could accomplish the same thing by just throwing on the GT350 springs (the PP2 are essentially that; I'm talking literally here), utilizing the GT350 MRC cal, using the GT350 tires (Pilot Sports/PS4; wider than PP1) and then, maybe offer some alternate wheels.

No, there was a higher goal here. A car or lap time was targeted. And... perhaps, somewhere along the way, in development, it was found that this "PP2" thing that was being developed as a skunk-works, was looking to be able to perform better than the GT350...

Mike Del Zio - Ford Dynamics Engineer for the Mustang:
https://www.fordnxt.com/news/ford-di...mance-pack-l2/

“We wanted to do this Level 2 car. We thought there was a market between the Level 1 and the Shelby. ‘I want the suspension but give me the base engine and brakes. So, we grabbed their tire — the GT350R front tire — a 305 in a square fit now. Our team always likes to work with a square fit if we can.”

“The Level 2 was designed to fit in that gap. I truly believe that we did not leave anything on the table with the Level 2. I will tell you we did not slow that car one bit just to make an artificial gap [to the GT350]. That [PP2] car is as fast as we could possibly make it.”

“Billy [Johnson] was helping us because what you want for sustained high-speed operation is different from what you want on the racetrack. We would go run our big, 5-mile oval and say ‘This car feels really stable and planted.’ Then we would go to the racetrack and Billy would tell us where to make adjustments.”

Steve Turner - FordNXT Journalist
https://www.fordnxt.com/news/billy-j...-mustang-ppl2/

Not only does Billy own a 2016 Mustang GT of his own, which offers him the same daily driver customer perspective that you and I have, but he helped develop the MagneRide system on the production GT350. He likes it so much that he wishes his first-gen S550 had the system.

As we shared in our prior story on the package, the engineers didn’t hold back on the PPL2 development to create an artificial gap between this package and the top-tier Shelby. As such, this package is closer in performance to the GT350 than it is to the Performance Pack Level 1 that it expounds upon.

Billy Johnson - Factory Ford/Professional Race Car Driver and Ford Performance/Multimatic Test Driver:
Same article

“While working with the Shelby and Ford GT development groups, there was a track test where the base Mustang guys also attended and I had the chance to hop in their car, drive it, and give them some feedback. That’s another awesome thing that even during the development of the regular Mustangs, they track them right from the beginning. It’s not just do all the street stuff and then, ‘Oh maybe we’ll play around on the track.’ The track is definitely an important part of the development of every Mustang.”

"I had the chance to drive the Performance Pack 1 a long time ago and give them some feedback. Then the Performance Pack 2 test mule came out and I gave them some feedback on that. As things progressed and Performance Pack 2 really turned into a very high-performing base Mustang, they had me come back again and I worked with them on later track events to further dial in the MagneRide and the aerodynamics. As they were playing around with the aero and getting more downforce, we talked about the aerodynamic balance when you are going through corner at 130-140 mph at VIR. Having that aero balance make it stable and easy to drive in the corner. Since I worked on the MagneRide tuning with the Shelby guys, we were able to take that knowledge and further expand on it to help develop the tuning on the Performance Pack 2.”

“It will be a car that you can daily drive, especially with the comfort of the MagneRide. The track-focused Cup 2 tires are obviously aggressive and have a pretty wide footprint all the way around, which definitely helps close the gap to the GT350. It also has more downforce than the standard Mustang, but not quite as much as the Shelby. Compared with the previous Mustang, the 2018 has a higher redline — 7,500 rpm is awesome — so you are closing the gap in terms of horsepower and rev range to the Shelby. While you don’t have the transmission and diff coolers, the car doesn’t cost as much as the Shelby. Overall, you really are getting close in terms of the inherent performance parts and while it may not beat a Shelby around a racetrack (it’s close), the car is very fast and extremely capable.”

______________________________
First off, Billy just got a new S550, and it's a PP1... Just a point of interest; various things can be derived from that.

Second, I have a feeling that something happened during the roll out of this car, internally. Initially, I thought it had to do with the GT350, but I'm proven wrong by the above. The other likely thought is that Mr. Hackett (the "Hacker" of cars) decided to "cut-it-out" and/or Ford's typical cheapness cut in.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Well, as I am sure you are aware, tone doesn't always come through keyboard as intended. But to articulate the intent of my tone in words, I am not as angry as that whole tirade reads, more disappointed. I was pretty excited about the PP2, because I felt that brought another configuration with a different purpose to the Mustang lineup from what had been described by Ford. I was hoping this thing would beat the 1LE, and we can see some back and forth between the two automakers. So, I am disappointed from the standpoint that the PP2 is not really a track package (okay, perhaps I was foolish to assume this, you can fault me for that). But, on top of that disappointment, I have to put up with more of the Ford bias by the auto journalists because they are afraid of the Ford fanbois. Why can't they just tell it like it is. They re-tuned the suspension with some of the GT350 bits, which is great. They stuck some track focused tires on it, which is great. Then they forgot the coolers, which is crap. So, now the parts just really don't go together. Which is a fail. Don't try to white wash this fail because you don't want to be labeled Road & Chevy by some internet trolls. Good grief.

The odd thing is that Ford went through all the trouble to do all kinds of track specific testing and tuning, with track specific type of components, only to decide not to include proper coolers to sustain a track environment, not even to offer them as an up-charged option, and call it a car that isn't intended to be a track car... A serious WTF.

If you want to create a more thrilling experience above the PP1, just through on wider wheels and tires, retune the MRC and call it a day. Besides, most of the guys I see on M6G don't even care to track these cars. They take the Sport Cups off and put on all seasons. The big allure to them is the wheels (which are sexy, I will admit). Even the suspension isn't low enough for some, as they swap out to GT350 springs/GT350 FP springs... Point is, the people buying them, aren't buying them for the work these hard working Ford engineers put their time in for - they just want the wheels and a lower stance... and to say, "I have Level 2!" (not making fun of anyone, but that is a "thing" for buyers).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Mountain

The odd thing is that Ford went through all the trouble to do all kinds of track specific testing and tuning, with track specific type of components, only to decide not to include proper coolers to sustain a track environment, not even to offer them as an up-charged option, and call it a car that isn't intended to be a track car... A serious WTF.

If you want to create a more thrilling experience above the PP1, just through on wider wheels and tires, retune the MRC and call it a day. Besides, most of the guys I see on M6G don't even care to track these cars. They take the Sport Cups off and put on all seasons. The big allure to them is the wheels (which are sexy, I will admit). Even the suspension isn't low enough for some, as they swap out to GT350 springs/GT350 FP springs... Point is, the people buying them, aren't buying them for the work these hard working Ford engineers put their time in for - they just want the wheels and a lower stance... and to say, "I have Level 2!" (not making fun of anyone, but that is a "thing" for buyers).

Agree: "a serious WTF".
Ditto WTF re: Billy's comment that albeit the car is devoid of coolers it doesnt cost as much as a Shelby. No kidding...but...coolers are cheap! And could have been offered as an option. It is all smoke and mirrors not to piss off GT350 guys who paid big bucks. Just imo.

[50MileSmile]

Having owned a ‘16 GT 350, I agree with a lot of the comments here about the PP2 not getting the job done for the track. However, it wasn’t designed for the track, just like most of the vehicles Ford builds that still get tested on the track as part of their development process. You guys who are blaming that characterization on the magazines need to take a breath and deal in the facts: Ford has said all along that the PP2 is not designed for - nor is it appropriate to run on - the track. They seem to have learned something about what they can and can’t say after promoting the GT 350 as “the most track-capable Mustang ever built.”

[TrackClub]

To build a car that apparently comes close to gt350 performance and then plainly "forbid" loyal buyers to track it is a travesty. I suppose they want Ford Nation loyals to fork out big bucks for a gt350 instead.
I hope the loyals see it another way and vote with their feet. And hope that Ford learns that castrating a good product only hurts folks who cant afford a Shelby.
Imo this is as bad as it gets, but Ford has tried this tactic before trying to force folks to buy even more expensive gt350r when they offered gt350 sans cooler.
Pure and utter BS.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Said this over here:

“It will be a car that you can daily drive, especially with the comfort of the MagneRide. The track-focused Cup 2 tires are obviously aggressive and have a pretty wide footprint all the way around, which definitely helps close the gap to the GT350. It also has more downforce than the standard Mustang, but not quite as much as the Shelby. Compared with the previous Mustang, the 2018 has a higher redline — 7,500 rpm is awesome — so you are closing the gap in terms of horsepower and rev range to the Shelby. While you don’t have the transmission and diff coolers, the car doesn’t cost as much as the Shelby. Overall, you really are getting close in terms of the inherent performance parts and while it may not beat a Shelby around a racetrack (it’s close), the car is very fast and extremely capable.”

I have the video up, the driver mod in a PP2 (and a modded Gen5 1LE)will still beat (2) GT350's.
Video info described in post #8, fun starts at about 2:30

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

I have the video up, the driver mod in a PP2 (and a modded Gen5 1LE)will still beat (2) GT350's.
Video info described in post #8, fun starts at about 2:30

Nice driving!! What are you using for a PDR?

[cdb95z28]

Thanks, I still have lots of room to improve. I'm using Harry's Lap Timer on my iphone.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

Having owned a ‘16 GT 350, I agree with a lot of the comments here about the PP2 not getting the job done for the track. However, it wasn’t designed for the track, just like most of the vehicles Ford builds that still get tested on the track as part of their development process. You guys who are blaming that characterization on the magazines need to take a breath and deal in the facts: Ford has said all along that the PP2 is not designed for - nor is it appropriate to run on - the track. They seem to have learned something about what they can and can’t say after promoting the GT 350 as “the most track-capable Mustang ever built.”

"I had the chance to drive the Performance Pack 1 a long time ago and give them some feedback. Then the Performance Pack 2 test mule came out and I gave them some feedback on that. As things progressed and Performance Pack 2 really turned into a very high-performing base Mustang, they had me come back again and I worked with them on later track events to further dial in the MagneRide and the aerodynamics. As they were playing around with the aero and getting more downforce, we talked about the aerodynamic balance when you are going through corner at 130-140 mph at VIR. Having that aero balance make it stable and easy to drive in the corner. Since I worked on the MagneRide tuning with the Shelby guys, we were able to take that knowledge and further expand on it to help develop the tuning on the Performance Pack 2.”

Read the bold above. Are you so delusional to believe that the PP2 had it's aerodynamics tuned for downforce at 130-140 MPH for the STREET?

Yeah, lets get a race car driver to tune our street car's aerodynamic package for going through the corners at 140MPH. That's time well spent. /sarchasm

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

To build a car that apparently comes close to gt350 performance and then plainly "forbid" loyal buyers to track it is a travesty. I suppose they want Ford Nation loyals to fork out big bucks for a gt350 instead.
I hope the loyals see it another way and vote with their feet. And hope that Ford learns that castrating a good product only hurts folks who cant afford a Shelby.
Imo this is as bad as it gets, but Ford has tried this tactic before trying to force folks to buy even more expensive gt350r when they offered gt350 sans cooler.
Pure and utter BS.

Wow - were you run over by a Mustang as a young child? This is a lot of anger over a car that doesn’t meet your standards, especially since the manufacturer has attached disclaimers all over it.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Read the bold above. Are you so delusional to believe that the PP2 had it's aerodynamics tuned for downforce at 130-140 MPH for the STREET?

Having worked in and around the automotive industry for many years (including testing and racing), that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s called bragging rights.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

Having worked in and around the automotive industry for many years (including testing and racing), that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s called bragging rights.

The article reported the car can't go around a track but a lap or two before limp mode. If the intent was to brag, they failed miserably. Again

[Whitespeed]

The sad fact is most people want the illusion of performance but will never drive the car the way it is truly capable of being driven. The handling and performance from 20 years ago was enough for most people., since even then you couldn't get the full potential out of the car on the street. It comes down to an arms race between manufacturers for bragging rights that everyone gets caught up in but the majority of the buying public never really exploits to it's full potential, other than us enthusiasts. So the PP2 Mustang doesn't come with extra coolers. Is it a mistake on Fords part? Probably not, because they gambled the majority of buyers will never care. I'm not sure why GM decided to go all in with the Camaro this time, but in any case, I'm thankful they did!

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Whitespeed

The sad fact is most people want the illusion of performance but will never drive the car the way it is truly capable of being driven. The handling and performance from 20 years ago was enough for most people., since even then you couldn't get the full potential out of the car on the street. It comes down to an arms race between manufacturers for bragging rights that everyone gets caught up in but the majority of the buying public never really exploits to it's full potential, other than us enthusiasts. So the PP2 Mustang doesn't come with extra coolers. Is it a mistake on Fords part? Probably not, because they gambled the majority of buyers will never care. I'm not sure why GM decided to go all in with the Camaro this time, but in any case, I'm thankful they did!

To be honest, I think Chevy screwed up here too (with regards too coolers). Mustang sales have been better than the 6th Gen Camaro. Base price is often sighted as a big factor (but others too like visibility and trunk opening). They could have had a version without all the coolers for a more competitive base price, and off the coolers as an option, or come standard with the 1LE. Most folks don't need 47 coolers for the street.

Personally, I love them, because I can daily drive my standard non-1LE automatic Camaro during the week, then take it to the track on the weekends all stock, including tires and brakes (I did go with DOT4 brake flluid). But, I'm not the average buyer of a SS or GT.

SO, we get either too much cooler usage, or not enough. Those are the choices with the SS and GT right now (and some of the GT350 too, of course).