[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

They also forget these are the track cars. They say ford left out the aggressive track suspension for better ride. But if you want a true track car, you need to sacrifice something. If you want a better ride or more practical car, then get the base gt500 or zl1. Few of these cars ar3 built, so why are they not truly built for the track? IMHO if the 1le does beat the CFTP, even tho it rides better on the roads is a fail. Why make a limited amount of Carbo Fiber Track Package if it can’t beat the 3 year old 1le?

I do not think Ford was actually able to build it to beat the ZLE. So they had to settle.

I said it before, the ZLE is a track car while the CF5 is just a performance car that can do well on certain tracks. They raved about how the 500 corners and how well it does on the track when it first showed up. And they raved about it against the C8 even tho it was obvious that the advantage was all in the straights. Now the ZLE gets in it's face and all of a sudden the GT500 is "practical". Up against the ZLE all the praise on the handling flew out the window. I believe this goes in line with what someone else said...that the Mustangs are not bad cars, they just seem bad when put up against Camaros. The GT500 seems to be no different.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I do not think Ford was actually able to build it to beat the ZLE. So they had to settle.

I said it before, the ZLE is a track car while the CF5 is just a performance car that can do well on certain tracks. They raved about how the 500 corners and how well it does on the track when it first showed up. And they raved about it against the C8 even tho it was obvious that the advantage was all in the straights. Now the ZLE gets in it's face and all of a sudden the GT500 is "practical". Up against the ZLE all the praise on the handling flew out the window. I believe this goes in line with what someone else said...that the Mustangs are not bad cars, they just seem bad when put up against Camaros. The GT500 seems to be no different.

Yup, not sure if you're remembering me or someone else that said that. I was recollecting that when i was reading your post. I am sure the GT500 deserves praise for its handling, especially considering it's weight, truly impressive when you think that this thing is over 4200 pounds. For it to even be in discussion with the ZL1 and ZLE in regards to handling is impressive, BUT.....that doesn't mean it is as good as a Camaro, so when it is compared to one it falls short. I think for me it is easy to forget that just because the Camaro is better, doesn't mean the GT500 isn't awesome, but it is why I have such issue with price of the CFTP.

I am not the first to say this, but the CFTP does seem to be a disappointment after all. Someone on M6G said something along the lines of "more just carbon fiber and not so much Track Package." Maybe more tests will show otherwise, but so far it looks pretty bad for the CFTP cars.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yup, not sure if you're remembering me or someone else that said that. I was recollecting that when i was reading your post. I am sure the GT500 deserves praise for its handling, especially considering it's weight, truly impressive when you think that this thing is over 4200 pounds. For it to even be in discussion with the ZL1 and ZLE in regards to handling is impressive, BUT.....that doesn't mean it is as good as a Camaro, so when it is compared to one it falls short. I think for me it is easy to forget that just because the Camaro is better, doesn't mean the GT500 isn't awesome, but it is why I have such issue with price of the CFTP.

I am not the first to say this, but the CFTP does seem to be a disappointment after all. Someone on M6G said something along the lines of "more just carbon fiber and not so much Track Package." Maybe more tests will show otherwise, but so far it looks pretty bad for the CFTP cars.

That was me on the other forum. I basically said that the carbon wheels is what really makes the CFTP special, but if you take the wheels out, there really not much difference between the base. So I brought up a question for those who bought the R or the CFTP, would you give up the $12000 wheels for a more track specific suspension to really make your car special. These are very limited built, so why not build them for what there supposed to be, a track car. Carbon wheels don’t make it a track car. Heck most are afraid to use due to cost to replace.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

That was me on the other forum. I basically said that the carbon wheels is what really makes the CFTP special, but if you take the wheels out, there really not much difference between the base. So I brought up a question for those who bought the R or the CFTP, would you give up the $12000 wheels for a more track specific suspension to really make your car special. These are very limited built, so why not build them for what there supposed to be, a track car. Carbon wheels don’t make it a track car. Heck most are afraid to use due to cost to replace.

Yup, I remember that part almost word for word. Does make sense the CFTP be hardcore purpose built track car, base is the street version. Raise the performance of the CFTP, and you can always choose the base if you prefer, same as ZLE vs ZL1.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by addyb0y5

Just stumbled upon this article.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...amaro-zl1-1le/

A pleasant surprise with their "winner" pick :-)

Enjoy !

Thanks for sharing. The 6th gen Camaro has a great well balanced platform. I expect similar results for the ZL1 VS the base GT500. No wonder why FOMOCO never allowed their Shelby GT350 nor the GT350R to be compared VS the Camaro SS1LE.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND

I felt bad after seeing that. That GT 500 is the truth.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...eye-drag-race/

This was a very stupid comparison. Testing car with cup tires on temperatures below 40 F. What they expected. It was a failed test.
Also we all know that the ZL1 1LE is specialized for curves and the ZL1 is the best choice for straight line times, because of the type of tires and less spoiler for less drag.
This test was a waste of time.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by oldman

I had a post on that huge thread like 3000 replies on the PP1 Mustang. Every generation the Camaro had a better engine/suspension combination and only when you went to the full check everything off box did the Mustang catch up. I think I called Ford's Pay to Play marketing scheme. Even simple things like base SS you get a 4 bbl on your 350, Ford nope you gotta get the Cobra Jet or the Boss

The '11 Mustang GT 5.0 and the '12 Mustang BOSS beated the 5th. Gen Camaro SS on every test. Those Mustangs had a live axle VS the IRS Camaros.
The 6th gen Camaro with the newer Alpha platform became the best weapon against any Mustang. The only worthy Mustangs now are the Shelbys but they are H2H with base Camaros. With less $$$ able to compete against them. Great job GM

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

That was me on the other forum. I basically said that the carbon wheels is what really makes the CFTP special, but if you take the wheels out, there really not much difference between the base. So I brought up a question for those who bought the R or the CFTP, would you give up the $12000 wheels for a more track specific suspension to really make your car special. These are very limited built, so why not build them for what there supposed to be, a track car. Carbon wheels don’t make it a track car. Heck most are afraid to use due to cost to replace.

Ford basically Frankensteins shit and then slaps a "Shelby" badge on it.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ford basically Frankensteins shit and then slaps a "Shelby" badge on it.

While I won't argue against this...

Where did LT4 come from? Z06. ELSD started on the C7 and trickled to Alpha. The 3rd Gen MRC started on Gen V ZL1, and trickled through to CTS-V and Corvette the generations following. 8L90 started in the C7 and trickled down through Alpha and trucks. My point is, GM does the same thing. I think they seem to, perhaps, do it a little better through integration and such. I believe one of the reasons ZL1 is so good is because of the ELSD. GM developed an outstanding 10-speed they could trickle-down to trucks and mainstream but spent a lot of time and resources on a chassis that was polished probably as good as it could be. I think Ford, like it has in the past, just dumps money into the engine (and do a GREAT job) and this DCT, while great (it would seem), that's just thousandths of a second (shift-wise) than the 10R90.

I just think GM did a better job polishing ZL1 better than Ford. Can you imagine if ZL1/E had more power?... Even a de-tuned LT5 with bigger brakes (same size as the GT500) would make this even more interesting, to me. But I digress. I don't think we're going to see a better CAMARO than this generation - at least not in terms of performance. This might be the king of the hill.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by radz28

While I won't argue against this...

Where did LT4 come from? Z06. ELSD started on the C7 and trickled to Alpha. The 3rd Gen MRC started on Gen V ZL1, and trickled through to CTS-V and Corvette the generations following. 8L90 started in the C7 and trickled down through Alpha and trucks. My point is, GM does the same thing. I think they seem to, perhaps, do it a little better through integration and such. I believe one of the reasons ZL1 is so good is because of the ELSD. GM developed an outstanding 10-speed they could trickle-down to trucks and mainstream but spent a lot of time and resources on a chassis that was polished probably as good as it could be. I think Ford, like it has in the past, just dumps money into the engine (and do a GREAT job) and this DCT, while great (it would seem), that's just thousandths of a second (shift-wise) than the 10R90.

I just think GM did a better job polishing ZL1 better than Ford. Can you imagine if ZL1/E had more power?... Even a de-tuned LT5 with bigger brakes (same size as the GT500) would make this even more interesting, to me. But I digress. I don't think we're going to see a better CAMARO than this generation - at least not in terms of performance. This might be the king of the hill.

I see your point (regarding the first paragraph). However I would say that the Camaro is more of a clone than a Frankenstein project. Usually the Corvette comes out first and then about 2 years later the next Gen Camaro arrives with Corvette stuff. Case in point the 17 ZL1. That LT4 engine was in the 2015 Z06. It showed up 2 years later in the 17 ZL1. The (modern) LT1 engine showed up in the 2014 Vette and then 2 years later in the 2016 Camaro SS.

What I'm getting at is that GM typically trickles down from the Vette to the Camaro. But...by the time the Camaro gets Vette stuff, the problems and issues have been worked out. Case in point the Z06s from 2015 to 2016 overheating. GM fixed it for 2017. And the 2017 ZL1 benefited from what GM learned in those two years. Therefore the 6th Gen ZL1s are damn near impossible to overheat. I'd venture to say that if someone does overheat a ZL1 then that was their intention. I digress.

The Camaro is a clone or a "cheap man's Corvette". It benefits from what GM learned in the past with the Vette. And typically it is improved over the early Vette iterations. Not just that but GM tends to build the entire car as a whole. Or, according to the Gestalt theorem, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. GM builds the entire car in a way to work together. Each part improves the other parts. Thus, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. This is seen when the ZL1 costing less than $75K is capable of defeating cars that cost $20K more.

On the other hand, Ford throws parts at the car hoping it will improve the car. Like what 13Vertss said about the CF wheels: "would you give up the $12000 wheels for a more track specific suspension to really make your car special?". Ford threw those wheels on the car to help the car out because the suspension was not enough. Notice how GM did not need CF wheels with the ZLE and it can hang with and beat the CF GT500 despite a huge HP deficit AND the 500's use of the CF wheels. Ford knew the GT500 wasn't up to snuff. So they had to add more HP and throw CF components at it. The ZL1 is more than a SS and it has always been. A SS with a blower will not match a ZL1. The GT500 tho, according to some, is nothing more than a GT PP2 with a blower and some CF stuff.

And that is why the 500 is a Frankenstein. A Frankenstein is just some monster with bits and pieces from here and there tossed on with having a specific reason but none really working together. The ZL1 is a clone. The original product was improved upon and a separate version was built using what was learned. The difference really is synergy. In basketball you can have a team that works really well together go up against a team of more talented individuals who do not mix well. Who will win?

That is why GM does not need to throw the LT5 in the ZL1 to beat the GT500. But now, imagine if GM did build a ZLE around the fully potent LT5. Would the GT500 even stand a chance? It can't even beat the very well built 650 HP "anemic" "asthmatic" "truck" engine that is the LT4. LOL!!

[radz28]

I think the jury is still out on IF ZLE actually beats the '500. The shorter the track, I think the more the ZLE is favored because the '500 can't use all of it's power. You compare both on a longer track, I bet the tables are turned. I don't think the chassis is better, but it definitely has a power advantage. Whether that power is integrated and used better may not be the case, but more reviews and comparisons at different venues will reveal who's got what advantage.

I maintain, from the start of learning about the powertrain in the '500, that I didn't think the DCT and 700++ horse wasn't going to be completely useful without a good rear end (among other things, like chassis-tuning), and I think we might be seeing that. I think it comes back to integration, or maybe the lack thereof. That Predator, DCT, and CF wheels just don't make-up for as much as it might take around a track, like ZLE. That PTM is a real game changer. We have Corvette to thank for that - that's for sure. But I'm no engineer - just a mullet-wearing Camaro guy. And perhaps Ford really wasn't trying to go faster than ZLE, because they knew it was "too" track-focused and didn't want to scare-off people that didn't want to bleed out of their arse after a ride, ha. And maybe that's why this generation of Camaro is doomed - it's too much for most people, while Pony looks the part while not quite being the part.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

One thing that I'll say again that deserves recognition is that in this pairing the B5 (Base GT500) has every advantage over the ZL1. Of note is that the B5 is closer in price to the ZLE and that is when you add in the PDR and Nav on the ZLE. When you think about it, that price difference between the ZL1 and ZLE comes with a substantial increase in performance. So from how I see it, the 500 is really getting not just an advantage but a heavy advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see the ZL1 in action. But it should not go without mention that in all of these scenarios the Camaro has not once been on equal footing. Even up against Dodge. And so far the ZL1 and C8 have not come in last in anything when Dodge, Ford, and Chevy are all on the same track. They have managed to beat both the B/CF GT500 and HC/RE at what each of those cars were supposed to be built for.

Imagine if for just once, just once, GM had the advantage in just one area. LOL! It wouldn't even be a race. It would be a slaughter. Now imagine if GM had every advantage like the CF5 has enjoyed. ZR1. Would the 500 be able to win at anything in that matchup?

Yea there is nothing practical about any of these cars. Even worse one that comes with only 2 seats. I travel out of the country on vacation a lot. Usually 6-8 times a year. If I had to pick only one of these cars that I had to use as a DD then without any question it would be my HC because I can fit a 40 inch duffle bag and a suitcase in the trunk easily. Inside the car I can fit 4 adult sized Humans comfortably. I can fit a ton of groceries, laundry baskets, etc in the car without having to strategically arrange stuff. That is what I consider to be practicality. Even if the 500 was practical, it is not more practical than the HC. So I am not sure what they were thinking.

When not having back seats somehow makes the car more practical you know they were just trying to give the gt500 a win there. Putting tires back there wouldn't be used as a test of practicality vs putting humans back there or baby seats.

I get it though, they're trying to make the tests fun and entertaining, those who care will just go to the hard data, plus the gt500 is the new hotness.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Funny how people ignore the fact that the cftp is a 2 seater when trying to protect it from the zr1 or z06. Edmunds must have forgot as well when the declared it most practical vs the zle and RE.

Right that entire video was stupid, but for their test of track day tire practicality, no rear seat is a bonus. I've thought about taking my back seat out partly for this and partly for the slight weight reduction. Some guys have even removed the plastic by the trunk latch and the cardboard trunk floor to be able to finangle a really wide wheel in the trunk. I've also thought about a hitch and tire trailer. Both options suck really.

Originally Posted by minn19

^This, I've never really liked Edmunds and lazy video/comparisons this doesn't help for me anyway. Also, they forget the GT350R has CF wheels when they are talking about that? Basic stuff people.

Yeah I wondered why they didn't mention the 350R with the CF wheels.

Originally Posted by minn19

I don't bother with MSRP or pricing discussions for either version of the GT500. Most of them, especially the CFTP GT500s won't be had at MSRP. It's too much of a guess until they start hitting dealers, but they look to be high already with the usual Ford BS going on.

100% true but the fanboys don't acknowledge markups

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

One thing that I'll say again that deserves recognition is that in this pairing the B5 (Base GT500) has every advantage over the ZL1. Of note is that the B5 is closer in price to the ZLE and that is when you add in the PDR and Nav on the ZLE. When you think about it, that price difference between the ZL1 and ZLE comes with a substantial increase in performance. So from how I see it, the 500 is really getting not just an advantage but a heavy advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see the ZL1 in action. But it should not go without mention that in all of these scenarios the Camaro has not once been on equal footing. Even up against Dodge. And so far the ZL1 and C8 have not come in last in anything when Dodge, Ford, and Chevy are all on the same track. They have managed to beat both the B/CF GT500 and HC/RE at what each of those cars were supposed to be built for.

Imagine if for just once, just once, GM had the advantage in just one area. LOL! It wouldn't even be a race. It would be a slaughter. Now imagine if GM had every advantage like the CF5 has enjoyed. ZR1. Would the 500 be able to win at anything in that matchup?

Yea there is nothing practical about any of these cars. Even worse one that comes with only 2 seats. I travel out of the country on vacation a lot. Usually 6-8 times a year. If I had to pick only one of these cars that I had to use as a DD then without any question it would be my HC because I can fit a 40 inch duffle bag and a suitcase in the trunk easily. Inside the car I can fit 4 adult sized Humans comfortably. I can fit a ton of groceries, laundry baskets, etc in the car without having to strategically arrange stuff. That is what I consider to be practicality. Even if the 500 was practical, it is not more practical than the HC. So I am not sure what they were thinking.

GM get's their advantage with the superior engineering of the next generation car. They dominate everything and the competition plays catchup every generation and we all wish GM would do more mid model updates (cough LT5 cough), but they usually don't. Yes the Hellcat is 100% the most practical car, the Edmunds test was a joke.

Originally Posted by 13vertss

That was me on the other forum. I basically said that the carbon wheels is what really makes the CFTP special, but if you take the wheels out, there really not much difference between the base. So I brought up a question for those who bought the R or the CFTP, would you give up the $12000 wheels for a more track specific suspension to really make your car special. These are very limited built, so why not build them for what there supposed to be, a track car. Carbon wheels don’t make it a track car. Heck most are afraid to use due to cost to replace.

$/laptime improvement I'm not sure and would love to see actual data, but it will never happen. However I personally know and have seen user here travislambert swap the Multimatic suspension onto his ZL1 with no laptime benefit. I think the rotating weight reduction of the CF wheels would definitely show improvement, but $12,000 worth of improvement? Eh not to me.

Originally Posted by radz28

I think the jury is still out on IF ZLE actually beats the '500. The shorter the track, I think the more the ZLE is favored because the '500 can't use all of it's power. You compare both on a longer track, I bet the tables are turned. I don't think the chassis is better, but it definitely has a power advantage. Whether that power is integrated and used better may not be the case, but more reviews and comparisons at different venues will reveal who's got what advantage.

I maintain, from the start of learning about the powertrain in the '500, that I didn't think the DCT and 700++ horse wasn't going to be completely useful without a good rear end (among other things, like chassis-tuning), and I think we might be seeing that. I think it comes back to integration, or maybe the lack thereof. That Predator, DCT, and CF wheels just don't make-up for as much as it might take around a track, like ZLE. That PTM is a real game changer. We have Corvette to thank for that - that's for sure. But I'm no engineer - just a mullet-wearing Camaro guy. And perhaps Ford really wasn't trying to go faster than ZLE, because they knew it was "too" track-focused and didn't want to scare-off people that didn't want to bleed out of their arse after a ride, ha. And maybe that's why this generation of Camaro is doomed - it's too much for most people, while Pony looks the part while not quite being the part.

I've said from the beginning the ZLE will still win on track. I think only high speed tracks like VIR Full will keep the CFTP close. If only Ford would allow some comparative laptimes to be released we would have our answer.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

They also forget these are the track cars. They say ford left out the aggressive track suspension for better ride. But if you want a true track car, you need to sacrifice something. If you want a better ride or more practical car, then get the base gt500 or zl1. Few of these cars ar3 built, so why are they not truly built for the track? IMHO if the 1le does beat the CFTP, even tho it rides better on the roads is a fail. Why make a limited amount of Carbo Fiber Track Package if it can’t beat the 3 year old 1le?

Yea they'll give you a nice comfy ride but remove the back seats and give you cf wheels... maybe the weight and a stiff ride wouldn't work well for the durability of the C.F. wheels hmmm.

I guess it's up to the customer on what they value more because I know there's some people who use these cars(especially the camaro and mustang) as two seaters anyways so the rear seat delete is no biggie to them, and some people who bitch about their pony track car having a stiff ride and some that expect it.

I'm the opposite, there's a baby seat permanently attached to my back seat and they get used often, as well as me not being an old man who cries about my sports car having stiff ride.