[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

The A10 in this car will skip gears and downshift from 10th to 3rd gear faster than a human can do it. The A10 equivalent to "holding a gear" like you were in 3rd with the M6 can be accomplished a couple of ways.

Option 1 - pull and hold the left paddle and it will downshift to the optimal gear based on your current speed. You then just mash the accelerator and you can paddle shift or let it auto upshift as needed during the pull.

Option 2 - my preferred method is to use Performance Shift Mode by giving the accelerator a quick stab at any speed. Once you do, the A10 will downshift to the optimal gear and holds the RPM like you were doing in 3rd on the M6, and then you forget the paddles and just let the A10 rip through the gears as you accelerate. Once in this Performance Shift Mode the A10 is keeping the transmission in lower gears and holding the RPM automatically, similar to what you would do in the manual. It also senses g-forces on braking to downshift and keep the revs up. It will stay in the Performance Mode as long as you keep driving in spirited manner. Once you chill out it will start upshifting to higher gears automatically. Another quick stab of the accelerator, as you approach a traffic light or an upcoming turn and it is holding gears at higher rpm similar to downshifting in the M6 and since the A10 has more gears to work through you get the symphony of crackles and pops like you do in the M6 just not as controlled unless you use the paddles.

Interestingly, the A8 has one more of those spark cutting and exhilarating "bam" shifts than the A10, which is a pretty nice perk on the street where you can realistically only max out 4th gear (or 5th on the A10) before you reach jail/impound speeds. The next shift would be at 147-149 mph (theoretically speaking, of course).

Performance shift mode is indeed a big contributor to the amount of enjoyment one can get out of these torque converted transmissions.

[4thGenSSGuy]

Which transmission will be more valuable in the future?

1970s, 1980s Porsche 911s have crazy value, all have stick.

GM will stop production of Camaro ZL1 soon -- I do not see the Camaro ever coming back -- that stated the 6th Gen Camaro ZL1 1LE will probably the most valuable over time ... 14-15 Z-28 also.

[RealG]

Originally Posted by pauly1119

Funny you say that, for an old muscle car you say go manual, why? I’ve had old muscle cars my whole life, the only thing enjoyable about them is a manual? I would say I don’t understand that comment. And for a new pony car to go automatic to be smart? Just trying to understand what you mean. The new pony car is full of new technology especially for the new manual driver with auto rev match. I’m not sure technology is reserved for automatic cars only.

if you’re going to own an old muscle car I would go with a four speed because old muscle car is not about comfort and quietness it’s about engagement with the road the feel the noise the old-school and the four-speed fits right in with that. The old muscle cars don’t do anything else good , they don’t stop good, they don’t steer good, they don’t get good gas mileage. Old muscle car automatics were not as good as modern automatics so in a older muscle car a four-speed might be faster than an automatic. I wouldn’t get a manual in a modern car because they make it slower and take away from the things that it’s designed to do best.
Manual transmissions makes a low horsepower car faster and a high Horsepower car slower.

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by RealG

if you’re going to own an old muscle car I would go with a four speed because old muscle car is not about comfort and quietness it’s about engagement with the road the feel the noise the old-school and the four-speed fits right in with that. The old muscle cars don’t do anything else good , they don’t stop good, they don’t steer good, they don’t get good gas mileage. Old muscle car automatics were not as good as modern automatics so in a older muscle car a four-speed might be faster than an automatic. I wouldn’t get a manual in a modern car because they make it slower and take away from the things that it’s designed to do best.
Manual transmissions makes a low horsepower car faster and a high Horsepower car slower.

I understand what your saying but all the reasons you state to buy a 4 speed muscle car are the same reasons to own a 6 speed now. None of my muscle cars ever had the performance of my newer cars so handling and braking are all relative and the gas mileage I get now is comparable to my 67 SS Impala. I do understand though why a lot of people are getting the autos but I think a lot of drivers will miss out on the experience of the manual. With that said either car is an amazing car and you can’t go wrong and yes you will beat me to the next light by a half a car length and so will the Tesla by a full car length.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Interestingly, the A8 has one more of those spark cutting and exhilarating "bam" shifts than the A10, which is a pretty nice perk on the street where you can realistically only max out 4th gear (or 5th on the A10) before you reach jail/impound speeds. The next shift would be at 147-149 mph (theoretically speaking, of course).

Performance shift mode is indeed a big contributor to the amount of enjoyment one can get out of these torque converted transmissions.

Good point. The limits of these cars are near impossible to reach on the streets. The A8 and A10 are both excellent. I do like the shorter gearing between 1-5 on the A10 and the way it zips through the gears even when you are light on the throttle. It is always wild to hear so many shifts on your way to 50mph.

The only other call-out would be the A10 programming. I am not sure if the A10 in the SS behaves the same as the in the ZL1 but if I compare the A8 I had in my 2016 SS to the A10 in the 2021 ZL1 the tuning is much better in the A10. It tends to pick gears better, shifts quicker, senses spirited driving better and automatically holds gears more often, etc.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Good point. The limits of these cars are near impossible to reach on the streets. The A8 and A10 are both excellent. I do like the shorter gearing between 1-5 on the A10 and the way it zips through the gears even when you are light on the throttle. It is always wild to hear so many shifts on your way to 50mph.

The only other call-out would be the A10 programming. I am not sure if the A10 in the SS behaves the same as the in the ZL1 but if I compare the A8 I had in my 2016 SS to the A10 in the 2021 ZL1 the tuning is much better in the A10. It tends to pick gears better, shifts quicker, senses spirited driving better and automatically holds gears more often, etc.

Yeah, the factory A10 tune is much better indeed. Mechanically these two units are similar aside from the two extra gears (obviously). With my tuned A8, I only miss the extra gear between my 4th and 5th and the better paddle response time

The thing is, if the A8/A10 didn't have performance shift mode, they would leave a whole lot more to be desired compared to the M6, someone on the Camaro team had very smart thinking adding this transmission mode (I even like that it activates by using the accelerator as a switch, pretty cool, even though things like this do add to the perceivable throttle lag).

[d15b7]

an interesting aside; right now a used '19 ZR1 7sp manual demands about a $50k premium over an equivalent mileage and spec'd '19 ZR1 8sp auto. they made 2800ish total '19 ZR1, and about 750 of them were the 7sp manual. right now everyone wants to try to buy the 7sp manual. it's funny cause the 8sp auto is faster on a road course and faster on a drag strip, but they are much much less expensive to buy now.

a lot of that is driven by the fact that most people think there will never be another manual transmission in the Corvette again (all future units are thought to be dual clutch autos).

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by d15b7

an interesting aside; right now a used '19 ZR1 7sp manual demands about a $50k premium over an equivalent mileage and spec'd '19 ZR1 8sp auto. they made 2800ish total '19 ZR1, and about 750 of them were the 7sp manual. right now everyone wants to try to buy the 7sp manual. it's funny cause the 8sp auto is faster on a road course and faster on a drag strip, but they are much much less expensive to buy now.

a lot of that is driven by the fact that most people think there will never be another manual transmission in the Corvette again (all future units are thought to be dual clutch autos).

Yes very true, I follow the ZR1 market very close, the C7 ZR1 is my so called dream car and have wanted one since they came out. Its also hard to find a 7 speed even for sale.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

The A10 in this car will skip gears and downshift from 10th to 3rd gear faster than a human can do it. The A10 equivalent to "holding a gear" like you were in 3rd with the M6 can be accomplished a couple of ways.

Option 1 - pull and hold the left paddle and it will downshift to the optimal gear based on your current speed. You then just mash the accelerator and you can paddle shift or let it auto upshift as needed during the pull.

Option 2 - my preferred method is to use Performance Shift Mode by giving the accelerator a quick stab at any speed. Once you do, the A10 will downshift to the optimal gear and holds the RPM like you were doing in 3rd on the M6, and then you forget the paddles and just let the A10 rip through the gears as you accelerate. Once in this Performance Shift Mode the A10 is keeping the transmission in lower gears and holding the RPM automatically, similar to what you would do in the manual. It also senses g-forces on braking to downshift and keep the revs up. It will stay in the Performance Mode as long as you keep driving in spirited manner. Once you chill out it will start upshifting to higher gears automatically. Another quick stab of the accelerator, as you approach a traffic light or an upcoming turn and it is holding gears at higher rpm similar to downshifting in the M6 and since the A10 has more gears to work through you get the symphony of crackles and pops like you do in the M6 just not as controlled unless you use the paddles.

It is this new tech and programmability in the A10 that makes this auto transmission more fun and closes the gap on the fun factor when compared to the M6.

The advantage of the M6 is that you get to interact more with the clutch and shifter. I am not dismissing this aspect as it is a big one and the reason why threads like this will always exist. That said, the decision is more difficult now since automatics transmissions are getting so good, especially the A10.

This is a pretty good clip to highlight the A10 shift speed.

But I'm still trying to understand how me being in 3rd gear off the bat is going to be slower than holding down a paddle shifter. Physically, the act of me shifting vs a machine, yes the machine will always be faster. If I'm already aware of what gear I need to be in, and can anticipate it I figure that's going to be quicker than me anticipating and then making throttle inputs to shift the transmission.

I think we're discussing different aspects. I liken it to the difference between a roll race and a dead stop race. Dead stop, it's the automatic's world. Roll race, the manual will be in the correct gear (if the driver knows what they're doing) where the automatic will be in whatever gear is most efficient unless the driver of the automatic decides to switch to "manumatic" mode. I don't really do either of these. I do however have some instances where there's a small window for me to squirt through traffic and being in the gear that I need to be just before that window presents itself is why I prefer the manual over the automatic.

But, I understand why some people want the automatic. For me I want a more immersive driving experience. It's also the reason that I'm not put off by the lack of cup holders or storage space inside the Camaro. There are no wrong answers here, just different configurations for different needs/wants.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

But I'm still trying to understand how me being in 3rd gear off the bat is going to be slower than holding down a paddle shifter. Physically, the act of me shifting vs a machine, yes the machine will always be faster. If I'm already aware of what gear I need to be in, and can anticipate it I figure that's going to be quicker than me anticipating and then making throttle inputs to shift the transmission.

I agree if you are holding in 3rd gear anticipating acceleration the reaction will be a split second quicker than pulling a paddle or just mashing the accelerator and letting the A10 downshift to the optimal gear for you. Other factors come into play though. While the initial hit would be quicker assuming you are in the optimal gear based on your speed in the M6, the A10 has more gears with tighter spacing to keep the power band optimized to make up for any split second lag on the downshift.

That said, the Performance Shift Mode of the A10 would be similar to holding a gear in the M6, it is the just the process of engagement that is different. In the A10, the behavior is to quick stab of the accelerator and the car is now in the optimal gear based on speed. The car does not lurch forward, it auto rev matches in the A10. At this point you are have accomplished the same thing as a rev matched downshift to the ideal gear in the M6. Now mash the pedal.

As you said, the deeper engagement/fun factor is value of the M6, assuming you enjoy shifting.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I agree if you are holding in 3rd gear anticipating acceleration the reaction will be a split second quicker than pulling a paddle or just mashing the accelerator and letting the A10 downshift to the optimal gear for you. Other factors come into play though. While the initial hit would be quicker assuming you are in the optimal gear based on your speed in the M6, the A10 has more gears with tighter spacing to keep the power band optimized to make up for any split second lag on the downshift.

That said, the Performance Shift Mode of the A10 would be similar to holding a gear in the M6, it is the just the process of engagement that is different. In the A10, the behavior is to quick stab of the accelerator and the car is now in the optimal gear based on speed. The car does not lurch forward, it auto rev matches in the A10. At this point you are have accomplished the same thing as a rev matched downshift to the ideal gear in the M6. Now mash the pedal.

As you said, the deeper engagement/fun factor is value of the M6, assuming you enjoy shifting.

Oh and I have to be fair, my other vehicle is a very plain EV, one gear and instant torque. I have to be honest but the argument for the A10 could be used to promote an EV over ICE if we're looking at pure performance (in direct relationship to quickness off the line). I would say that my choice in going with an M6 was purely for the engaging drive. My "appliance" is there for daily duty, but for my toy I really love rowing the gears as it just adds that extra dimension to the driving experience.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

Oh and I have to be fair, my other vehicle is a very plain EV, one gear and instant torque. I have to be honest but the argument for the A10 could be used to promote an EV over ICE if we're looking at pure performance (in direct relationship to quickness off the line). I would say that my choice in going with an M6 was purely for the engaging drive. My "appliance" is there for daily duty, but for my toy I really love rowing the gears as it just adds that extra dimension to the driving experience.

Makes sense, best of both worlds.

I may eventually pickup another Miata with a 6-speed. I find that car the most fun car to row the gears on the street with. The ZL1 may have 3x the power of the Miata but it still feels torquey with its very short gearing. 6th gear in the ND is 1:1. You can wind out gears on the street a lot more without risking jail time.

[ZX-10R]

FD RX-7 (properly built and tuned) lays waste to Miatas (and still ~2800 lbs) - granted Miatas are cheaper to maintain. S2000 is also ahead of Miatas and has one of the best stock manual transmissions in the business

[ZED SLED]

"Oh cool, it's an automatic, too!" Said no one ever who has stuck their head in the window of a car at a car show.