[Posaune]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is true. The people with the deep pockets will, but how many of those buyers with deep pockets might go looking at other options at that price point.





It doesn't fit because it's a Camaro, same reason the Mustang and Challenger don't really fit in a list with cars that cost 80K or more. The majority of those cars you listed are also well respected luxury cars. At the end of the day no matter how amazing it is, its still a Chevrolet/Ford/Dodge.

I do agree but I have one caveat, half a decade or so ago, people said Corvette couldn't sell a $100k Vette. ZR1 touched that but it is limited quantities. If a Z/28 is priced in the $80k+ range, expect production volume below that of the 5th Gen Z/28. I'd rather see it priced around $60k, not much above the ZL1. It depends on GM's goals with the Z/28.

[Camaroguy555]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro is already out of the reach of many people. $40k for an SS isn't a common mans car.

I would disagree, I'm a 23 year old with a fairly average job and a mortgage and I can afford my SS. It's not unreasonably priced by any means. Also the V6 is still an awesome car and even cheaper.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

It doesn't fit because it's a Camaro, same reason the Mustang and Challenger don't really fit in a list with cars that cost 80K or more. The majority of those cars you listed are also well respected luxury cars. At the end of the day no matter how amazing it is, its still a Chevrolet/Ford/Dodge.

This too is an incredible factor for buyer's shopping the $80K (or more) car market.

Very, VERY few Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, Infinity, Lexus, etc buyers would dare be caught dead looking at a 'lowly' pony car. For them, it is not about the time at the 'ring or whether car has CC brakes or can blister the quarter mile like a Hellcat or even a Z06. It's because it is a Porsche, Audi, etc and NOT a Camaro or Mustang or Challenger.

Import buyers seldom cross shop with domestics, especially the pony/muscle segment. They may take a peek at a Cadillac lot but that's pretty much it.

So, for GM (or any American manufacturer) to put an $80K pony car out there, the market will be slim and, well, none most likely. Corvettes are a different story for some reason but I think it's because they are considered a big step up over the Camaros etc.

$75K Gen 5 Z/28s were even offered at giveaway prices of ~$20K off and, a lot did sell. But there are STILL several 2014s and 2015 Z's on lots.

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I wonder how many would want the GT 350 if Ford had put those same features as a package for the Mustang GT but NOT called it a Shelby GT 350? What if they just called it a Track Package Option for a Mustang GT Premium?

Think there would be that same demand? I bet not..

Disagree 100%. Although there are those people that will buy the car because of the (fake) Shelby allure, there are only 5000 a year being made, and many are being purchased by what can only described as those not of the "Mustang/Shelby faithful", whose other rides are Porsches, Ferrarris, and Corvettes.

It's the flat plane crank, 8250 rpm Voodoo engine + suspension changes = track prowess that's drawing them in.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Raven87

This too is an incredible factor for buyer's shopping the $80K (or more) car market.

Very, VERY few Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, Infinity, Lexus, etc buyers would dare be caught dead looking at a 'lowly' pony car. For them, it is not about the time at the 'ring or whether car has CC brakes or can blister the quarter mile like a Hellcat or even a Z06. It's because it is a Porsche, Audi, etc and NOT a Camaro or Mustang or Challenger.

Import buyers seldom cross shop with domestics, especially the pony/muscle segment. They may take a peek at a Cadillac lot but that's pretty much it.

So, for GM (or any American manufacturer) to put an $80K pony car out there, the market will be slim and, well, none most likely. Corvettes are a different story for some reason but I think it's because they are considered a big step up over the Camaros etc.

$75K Gen 5 Z/28s were even offered at giveaway prices of ~$20K off and, a lot did sell. But there are STILL several 2014s and 2015 Z's on lots.

With time, I expect this to change a little.

The luxury companies are increasingly offering cheaper alternatives, while the Camaro, Mustang, and Corvette are moving upmarket and offering uncompromising quality, engagement, performance...To be unquestionably rated a better car than the M4 was a devastating blow for BMW - they should be embarrassed.

Don't forget that as Camaro gets more expensive, so does everything else...

It may only be a "lowly" Camaro, but it IS a world-class car...give it some time, and if Camaro team keeps doing what they're doing...I think people will start to come around...certainly not everyone. But at some point, people will start asking themselves; "What am I getting for my $$"?

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by BradfordCamaro

Camaro was never or should ever be out of the reach of the average buyer.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro is already out of the reach of many people. $40k for an SS isn't a common mans car.

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

A Camaro for every man or woman regardless of your social economic status to afford but also a halo model that drives passionate dreams for ownership or just to lust after.

Why do I hear Bernie Sanders' voice when I read these? The average price of a new car in the US is $34k. The base Camaro starts at $26k, the V8 at $37k. For the performance I can't see a reason to complain.

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

When the Z/28 comes out it will more then likely be close to 83K not 100k

So people are going to choose between a $80k Z06, a $83k CTS-V, or a $83k Z/28? What makes you think the Z/28 is going to cost more than a Z06 or CTS-V?

Originally Posted by shaffe

Like Thor said, there was still 2015 Z/28s sitting on dealer lots, with the the 20% savings on them.

Originally Posted by Posaune

How big is the market for $60K+ sport coupes and of that, how big is the subset for stripped, track focused car with little creature comforts?

The 500 Z/28's built for 2014 MY were sold before they hit dealer lots, many for over MSRP. They built 2,500 for 2015 the final year of the 5th gen and some of them sat on lots as details of the Alpha based 6th gen began to emerge. Surprised?

As Posaune points out, this is a tiny niche market. The GT-R sold less than 100 cars a month last year. The Viper sold less than 50 a month and the GT3 sold less than that even.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

With time, I expect this to change a little.

The luxury companies are increasingly offering cheaper alternatives, while the Camaro, Mustang, and Corvette are moving upmarket and offering uncompromising quality, engagement, performance...To be unquestionably rated a better car than the M4 was a devastating blow for BMW - they should be embarrassed.

Don't forget that as Camaro gets more expensive, so does everything else...

It may only be a "lowly" Camaro, but it IS a world-class car...give it some time, and if Camaro team keeps doing what they're doing...I think people will start to come around...certainly not everyone. But at some point, people will start asking themselves; "What am I getting for my $$"?

No it wasn't and I can assure you almost certainly that the number of BMW faithful that care at all about what Camaro is doing is statistically zero. The people that care about these comparos are keyboard racers, fan boys and a few weekend track warriors. 99.99999% of potential BMW M4 buyers aren't picking up a magazine and saying "damn I better buy a Camaro". LOL
Marketing is everything. How do you think Harley Davidson continues to do crazy sales volumes with an at best average bike?
I do want one of these Gen 6 Camaros. I'm most likely going to buy one. I also think they are overpriced. However if GM is meeting they're projected sales volume and profit per unit, good for them.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Why do I hear Bernie Sanders' voice when I read these? The average price of a new car in the US is $34k. The base Camaro starts at $26k, the V8 at $37k. For the performance I can't see a reason to complain.

Hearing voices is usually a sign of mental issues. You should get that checked out.

Note: I am definitely not voting for Sanders.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Thor142

No it wasn't and I can assure you almost certainly that the number of BMW faithful that care at all about what Camaro is doing is statistically zero. The people that care about these comparos are keyboard racers, fan boys and a few weekend track warriors. 99.99999% of potential BMW M4 buyers aren't picking up a magazine and saying "damn I better buy a Camaro". LOL
Marketing is everything. How do you think Harley Davidson continues to do crazy sales volumes with an at best average bike?
I do want one of these Gen 6 Camaros. I'm most likely going to buy one. I also think they are overpriced. However if GM is meeting they're projected sales volume and profit per unit, good for them.

Believe it or not, it does come up with BMW faithful. Many have abandoned the brand over the last generation. Most are what we would call "true driving enthusiasts" who want the best drivers car. It's actually where I first heard of the 1LE. Many there were plain shocked at the fact it drove and handled much much better than Msport cars. Others defected to the ATS since it was more like the E93 cars which they all loved. So yes indeed it has impacted potential buyers, but for BMW that has been offset by the numbers of Toyota Camry/Avalon, and former Cadillac owners (you know the stereotype) who have started buying BMWs. They aren't buying M4 of course, but then again the M4 is not selling well either. Probably thanks to the fact is almost everyone is building an M4 killer, just not all as cheap as the SS.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

The 500 Z/28's built for 2014 MY were sold before they hit dealer lots, many for over MSRP.

Not true, that was a lie.

Proof:

http://www.capitolchevysj.com/new/Ch...7fe7beded6.htm

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Thor142

No it wasn't

I know it was just one article, but it was ground-breaking. In most, if not all, of the subjective metrics that matter to a driver who wants to "enjoy" the experience of driving, the M4 came short when compared to the Camaro SS to those guys.

This is the next step in a gradual progression of the Camaro out of the psychological restraint of the "muscle car" stigma. Last generation broke the mold with the ZL1 and subsequent cars.

This generation is going to prove last generation wasn't a fluke.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Believe it or not, it does come up with BMW faithful. Many have abandoned the brand over the last generation. Most are what we would call "true driving enthusiasts" who want the best drivers car. It's actually where I first heard of the 1LE. Many there were plain shocked at the fact it drove and handled much much better than Msport cars. Others defected to the ATS since it was more like the E93 cars which they all loved. So yes indeed it has impacted potential buyers, but for BMW that has been offset by the numbers of Toyota Camry/Avalon, and former Cadillac owners (you know the stereotype) who have started buying BMWs. They aren't buying M4 of course, but then again the M4 is not selling well either. Probably thanks to the fact is almost everyone is building an M4 killer, just not all as cheap as the SS.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

No the R/T doesn't compete performance wise with a SS..

However, if you're not caring about the best performance, or are particularly brand loyal, but just want a big, comfortable V8 coupe with good styling and street manners...the 5.7 R/T is a steal.

And if you want a nimble sports car with muscle car attitude, the Camaro is a steal.

It goes both ways. If GM decided to bring back the Chevelle or similar, it would be the Challengers competition.

[mkorgan]

Multiple article have compared the M4 to the SS and have come to the same conclusion, the M4 is living on past accomplishments and the SS is breaking new ground. In at least three reviews I can remember reading or watching the SS was considered a better buy both for daily driver and performance over the M4. So, if objective, third party reviews can pick the SS over the M4 why can't we expect the tag line "it's just a Camaro" to eventually be retired? I remember when C&D named the 2014 Z/28 the world's BEST DRIVERS CAR. The Porsche community lost their mind but you simply cannot disregard what GM has done over the past 4 years with putting the world on notice that Camaro is no longer a "Joe Dirt" muscle car but is a world class sports car. The performance #'s are indisputable and the reviews continue to support the case for Camaro to be on par with the world's best. Ultimately, you have to pay to play in the world class sports car segment and I for one am thrilled to see GM going all in.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by IOMike

And if you want a nimble sports car with muscle car attitude, the Mustang GT is a steal.

FIFY