Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > V8 LT1 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons


AWE Tuning


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-01-2022, 06:55 AM   #15
laynlo15
 
laynlo15's Avatar
 
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
Posts: 8,857
I don't see a problem with a SC on 93 octane, lots more fun with a boosted application but no matter who's Supercharger you buy don't buy it with a canned tune. You'll fight it as long a you have it and then you'll eventually get a custom tune. The Canned tunes tend to be on the rich side as mine was when I did my first Magnuson 2300 on my 16ss. It would only make 525 rwhp on the canned tune. Got Mike involved (then the President of Magnuson) and basically we changed the PE and immediately made 550 rwhp on the same dyno and the same day. Went to the track with a drag pack and ran 10.92@129 on the very first pass and proceeded to run a best of 10.82 that day. You can do that on the stock fuel system. So 550 to 575 is a lot of fun on the street or at the track.
__________________
2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
laynlo15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 07:18 AM   #16
arpad_m


 
arpad_m's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 Camaro 2SS A8
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 11,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGnitecki View Post
What are the drawbacks of octane boosters?

Jim G
They are 1) relatively expensive to use for each fillup and 2) contain MMT that produces an orange residue on plugs and catalytic converters; although the manufacturers of these products say their boosters are safe to use, this is harmful according to many. I personally would not continuously run an octane booster and chose fuel system upgrades instead.
__________________
2018 Camaro 2SS — G7E MX0 NPP F55 IO6
735 rwhp | 665 rwtq

Magnuson TVS 2300 80mm pulley | Kooks 1 7/8" LT headers | JRE smooth idle terminator cam | LT4 FS & injectors | TSP forged pistons & rods
JMS PowerMAX | DSX flex fuel kit | Roto-Fab CAI | Soler 95mm LT5 TB | 1LE wheels | 1LE brakes | BMR rear cradle lockout | JRE custom tune

1100 - 1/30/18 | 2000 - 1/31/18
3000 - 2/06/18 TPW 2/26/18
3400 - 2/19/18 | 3800 - 2/26/18
4300 - 2/27/18 | 4B00 - 3/01/18
4200 - 3/05/18 | 4800 - 3/14/18
5000 - 3/16/18 | 6000 - 3/19/18
arpad_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 08:17 AM   #17
laynlo15
 
laynlo15's Avatar
 
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
Posts: 8,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
They are 1) relatively expensive to use for each fillup and 2) contain MMT that produces an orange residue on plugs and catalytic converters; although the manufacturers of these products say their boosters are safe to use, this is harmful according to many. I personally would not continuously run an octane booster and chose fuel system upgrades instead.
I agree, I wouldn't use it at all. The tuner should tune for your Octane in your area. If you can't get E or don't have the fuel system, you're stuck with what you have and just have to deal with it. I'd still chose a SC over an NA build especially if you have a build and you're pulling the heads off and doing a cam, dod delete etc, there is going to be more labor and plenty of room for error anytime you're digging into the motor. Simple bolt ons with a tune on E will get you into the mid to low 11s on full weight. Most blower setups will get you into the high tens on 93. Lots of options for sure.
__________________
2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
laynlo15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 08:44 AM   #18
KingLT1


 
KingLT1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
I am speaking in terms of longevity not what the car can do for a couple track days. Setting a car up for street use is a different ball game. You are not always in the optimal gear. There might be times where you leave it in a lower gear and floor it which puts a heavier load on the engine. Or running it out past the 1/4 mi will be a massive difference in heat. Run 6th gear out to redline in a A8 car and let me know how long the SBE lasts on 93. All that makes a difference.

I retuned a P1x car on E60 and we picked up over 5mph in 1/4mi changing nothing else in the setup. Probably would have gained more but I believe #7 was already hurt as it was smoking a bit on the dyno before switching it over. It made 600whp on 93 octane @ 9psi peak. It was on 93 octane, LT4 fuel system and 12-13 degrees of timing for 2-3 seasons. The tune was done by a big name around here. After my friend got the car, I went over the tune. It was showing KR commanding 13 degrees. I actually took more timing out to get rid of the knock. It's currently getting forged drop-ins.

Moral of the story. Can you run 93 on low boost and squeak by....Yes. Will it live a long life, depends on how you use it. An occasional WOT rip not running it out past 140 probably fine. Track use with cool down time, probably ok. 1/2 mile rips or roadcourse...not gonna live long. Too much heat in the cylinder. As I previously mentioned when you pull excessive amounts of timing that starts to work against you and EGT's will actually increase as the engine is now laboring to make power. That is when you know you don't have enough octane.
__________________
2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP
Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP
Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA
KingLT1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 09:03 AM   #19
LT1ornothing

 
Drives: 2020 LT1 M6
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South, the DEEP south
Posts: 1,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
I am speaking in terms of longevity not what the car can do for a couple track days. Setting a car up for street use is a different ball game. You are not always in the optimal gear. There might be times where you leave it in a lower gear and floor it which puts a heavier load on the engine. Or running it out past the 1/4 mi will be a massive difference in heat. Run 6th gear out to redline in a A8 car and let me know how long the SBE lasts on 93. All that makes a difference.

I retuned a P1x car on E60 and we picked up over 5mph in 1/4mi changing nothing else in the setup. Probably would have gained more but I believe #7 was already hurt as it was smoking a bit on the dyno before switching it over. It made 600whp on 93 octane @ 9psi peak. It was on 93 octane, LT4 fuel system and 12-13 degrees of timing for 2-3 seasons. The tune was done by a big name around here. After my friend got the car, I went over the tune. It was showing KR commanding 13 degrees. I actually took more timing out to get rid of the knock. It's currently getting forged drop-ins.

Moral of the story. Can you run 93 on low boost and squeak by....Yes. Will it live a long life, depends on how you use it. An occasional WOT rip not running it out past 140 probably fine. Track use with cool down time, probably ok. 1/2 mile rips or roadcourse...not gonna live long. Too much heat in the cylinder. As I previously mentioned when you pull excessive amounts of timing that starts to work against you and EGT's will actually increase as the engine is now laboring to make power. That is when you know you don't have enough octane.
King, I know you said you don't currently run longtube headers, but from what you have gathered, would you say that 2" longtube headers with offroad midpipe connections helps alleviate some of those high EGT conditions for those of us forced to keep the timing low on a mild boost LT1 with LT4 fuel system and flex fuel?
LT1ornothing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 09:24 AM   #20
KingLT1


 
KingLT1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by LT1ornothing View Post
King, I know you said you don't currently run longtube headers, but from what you have gathered, would you say that 2" longtube headers with offroad midpipe connections helps alleviate some of those high EGT conditions for those of us forced to keep the timing low on a mild boost LT1 with LT4 fuel system and flex fuel?
The high EGT's are mainly from 93 octane and high compression. Once you switch to flex fuel, the timing goes up and temps go down. You will be able to run 20 degrees on E50 opposed to 12 degrees on 93. So you are not forced to run low timing. The timing isn't the issue here, it's the super high compression combined with inadequate octane that forces excessive amount of timing to be removed to try and keep KR at bay. Once you pull too much timing then it starts to work against you. 11-12 degrees is on the edge of being too low imo.

The cat pipes are the biggest bottle neck. I don't see the stock headers with cat delete pipes being that restrictive, but I am sure headers will help some.


Think about it like this. Even a Naturally Aspirated LT1 gains 25-30whp switching from 93 to Ethanol. Any engine that gains that kind of power from more octane means that it was octane limited prior. So, if a NA LT1 engine is limited on 93, what do you think adding boost is going to do? For reference NA LS engines only gain like 6-8whp tops going from 93 to E85.
__________________
2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP
Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP
Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA
KingLT1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 09:50 AM   #21
JimGnitecki
 
Drives: Chevrolet Camaro LT1
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Alberta
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by laynlo15 View Post
I don't see a problem with a SC on 93 octane, lots more fun with a boosted application but no matter who's Supercharger you buy don't buy it with a canned tune. You'll fight it as long a you have it and then you'll eventually get a custom tune. The Canned tunes tend to be on the rich side as mine was when I did my first Magnuson 2300 on my 16ss. It would only make 525 rwhp on the canned tune. Got Mike involved (then the President of Magnuson) and basically we changed the PE and immediately made 550 rwhp on the same dyno and the same day. Went to the track with a drag pack and ran 10.92@129 on the very first pass and proceeded to run a best of 10.82 that day. You can do that on the stock fuel system. So 550 to 575 is a lot of fun on the street or at the track.
It looks like Magnuson has improved its tune wince you got yours. Below is my dyno chart from Davenport Motorsports. Note both the peak horsepower and the AFR, and how the AFR richens as rpm rises, but it never gets richer than about 12.

Jim G
Attached Images
 
JimGnitecki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 10:08 AM   #22
LT1ornothing

 
Drives: 2020 LT1 M6
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: South, the DEEP south
Posts: 1,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
The high EGT's are mainly from 93 octane and high compression. Once you switch to flex fuel, the timing goes up and temps go down. You will be able to run 20 degrees on E50 opposed to 12 degrees on 93. So you are not forced to run low timing. The timing isn't the issue here, it's the super high compression combined with inadequate octane that forces excessive amount of timing to be removed to try and keep KR at bay. Once you pull too much timing then it starts to work against you. 11-12 degrees is on the edge of being too low imo.

The cat pipes are the biggest bottle neck. I don't see the stock headers with cat delete pipes being that restrictive, but I am sure headers will help some.


Think about it like this. Even a Naturally Aspirated LT1 gains 25-30whp switching from 93 to Ethanol. Any engine that gains that kind of power from more octane means that it was octane limited prior. So, if a NA LT1 engine is limited on 93, what do you think adding boost is going to do? For reference NA LS engines only gain like 6-8whp tops going from 93 to E85.
Highly appreciate your insight and this certainly gives me some peace of mind moving forward as I await a tune date.
__________________
[SBE] ECS NOVI 1500 supercharger, 2" Longtube headers, flex fuel, LT4 injectors, LT4 HPFP, baro breakout
Tune date and results to be determined
LT1ornothing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 10:15 AM   #23
JimGnitecki
 
Drives: Chevrolet Camaro LT1
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Alberta
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
I am speaking in terms of longevity not what the car can do for a couple track days. Setting a car up for street use is a different ball game. You are not always in the optimal gear. There might be times where you leave it in a lower gear and floor it which puts a heavier load on the engine. Or running it out past the 1/4 mi will be a massive difference in heat. Run 6th gear out to redline in a A8 car and let me know how long the SBE lasts on 93. All that makes a difference.
. . .
THAT makes sense. On THAT basis, I think I am pretty safe with my Magnuson tune, because:

- Davenport presumably tells Magnuson that local gas outside a small area surrounding City of Calgary is only 91 octane. Per Davenport's owner, Shell is apparently planning to extend 93 octane throughout most of Alberta, but that is not yet done.

- With my A10 transmission, I am never in the wrong gear. As soon as I hit the gas pedal, it downshifts aggressively. And 10 gears means it never needs to be in a wrong gear.

- My car will never see a trackday nor a dragstrip. And, on the street, our Canadian speed limits, and the draconian punishments for exceeding them (e.g. automatic impounds when you go more than 30 kph = 20 mph over the limit, license suspensions, etc) mean that the engine will never go high load/high rpm for more than about 6 seconds (The time needed to get to 140 KPH = 87 mph on a 110 kph speed limit deserted highway when you have 553 rhwp, even if you start from a dead stop, which I would never do because I don't ever race).

- Remember that Magnuson provides a warranty (provided that you stay with their provided tune unaltered), so I doubt that they are going to risk having an engine destroy itself.

Jim G
JimGnitecki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 10:24 AM   #24
JimGnitecki
 
Drives: Chevrolet Camaro LT1
Join Date: Sep 2022
Location: Alberta
Posts: 335
Attached is my Banks datalog from a recent WOT event. Note the ignition timing at WOT with 91 octane fuel and the unaltered Magnuson tune.

Jim G
Attached Images
 
JimGnitecki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2022, 10:43 AM   #25
laynlo15
 
laynlo15's Avatar
 
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
Posts: 8,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLT1 View Post
I am speaking in terms of longevity not what the car can do for a couple track days. Setting a car up for street use is a different ball game. You are not always in the optimal gear. There might be times where you leave it in a lower gear and floor it which puts a heavier load on the engine. Or running it out past the 1/4 mi will be a massive difference in heat. Run 6th gear out to redline in a A8 car and let me know how long the SBE lasts on 93. All that makes a difference.

I retuned a P1x car on E60 and we picked up over 5mph in 1/4mi changing nothing else in the setup. Probably would have gained more but I believe #7 was already hurt as it was smoking a bit on the dyno before switching it over. It made 600whp on 93 octane @ 9psi peak. It was on 93 octane, LT4 fuel system and 12-13 degrees of timing for 2-3 seasons. The tune was done by a big name around here. After my friend got the car, I went over the tune. It was showing KR commanding 13 degrees. I actually took more timing out to get rid of the knock. It's currently getting forged drop-ins.

Moral of the story. Can you run 93 on low boost and squeak by....Yes. Will it live a long life, depends on how you use it. An occasional WOT rip not running it out past 140 probably fine. Track use with cool down time, probably ok. 1/2 mile rips or roadcourse...not gonna live long. Too much heat in the cylinder. As I previously mentioned when you pull excessive amounts of timing that starts to work against you and EGT's will actually increase as the engine is now laboring to make power. That is when you know you don't have enough octane.
Agreed
__________________
2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
laynlo15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2022, 09:26 AM   #26
Livernois Motorsports

 
Livernois Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 454 LSX (SOLD)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Dearborn Heights, MI
Posts: 792
When it comes to supercharging a car this question comes up often, "is it safe" The answer to this is more complicated than just saying yes or no.

At a base level, putting a blower on a car with a safe boost level and a proper tune allows the engine to last for a long time. When we do install here we have done plenty of LT1s and they have had blowers on for a while and are real fun to drive and have had no issues. *
Most popular superchargers we have installed lately would be prochargers and magnusons, both are wonderful options for making "Safe" Power but they can both be turned up if you so desire to.

when you put a supercharger on a car you need to make sure that you stay up and all your general maintenance, oil changes, plugs, etc.

Before you go down the FI route you need to have a goal in mind, how much do you want to make? Do you want to run pump gas or e-85? What is your budget?

E-85 while requiring a fuel system is a really good gas to use on the LT1 motor, or any motor in general. It is much safer than 91-93 *and is a good gas option for these higher compression motors.

If you need help planning your build or would like to discuss your plans and goals please give us a call! Or dm me!**
Livernois Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2022, 07:53 PM   #27
PeteSS2018
 
Drives: 2018 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 91
As someone who's done what was asked about by the OP, my experience (in Australia) has been great, although who knows how "safe" it truly is.

My 2SS has a 2.9l whipple, max 9.5psi, standard fuel system (on our 98 which is approximately US 93 octane fuel). It was custom tuned to about 550 whp so relatively safe. I've had the same set up now for nearly 3 years and 25,000 miles. Regular servicing, oil changes at approx 5,000km (3500 miles or so). I never drive it to redline, no need to and honestly I don't want to lose my licence.

I've never raced it, have no plans or desire to. Its just a great street car - looks awesome and has great performance. Leaves most things behind without much effort. The torque of the engine makes it a fantastic car to drive on ordinary roads, and when you want to give it a bit more gas then it responds as you expect.

Is it a "safe" set up ... well that's relative. Its obviously not as safe as an unmodified factory original car. But you pay to play. The certainty of the huge performance increase for me out weighs the risk of something breaking. Life is like that - nothing ventured, nothing gained.
__________________
2018 2SS, Hyper Blue, Australian HSV delivered
2.9L Whipple 98RON tuned 650hp/850Nm
Elite Engineering E2 Catch Can
Eibach Prokit springs
Mamo LT1 Ported TB
PeteSS2018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2022, 10:10 AM   #28
prostcj
 
Drives: 2017 1SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 92
I have an LT1 and putting a NOVI 1500 on it. The tuner is going to give me two calibrations. One for street use and one for autox and road course with presumably more timing pulled. I discussed upgrading the fuel system for E85 but the parts and install would be close to 5K. The other wrinkle is I live in the PNW and E85 is limited.
He suggested if I only plan to take it to a road course a couple times a year that a cheaper option would be to mix in 5 gal of 110 octane with each tank before track days. This would provide some extra safety margin and should only run me a couple hundred dollars a year.
Is there something I'm missing here? I imagine most of us will only track our cars a handful of times a year and just buying the race fuel as needed would make more sense.
prostcj is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.