[Evansa22]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok but let's all remember that IF the B-GT500 can beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile and IF it can also beat it around a track then you're still comparing a $74K vehicle to a $64K vehicle. So the question would then be how much does it beat the ZL1 by and IF it can beat other vehicles that cost $74K MSRP. ALso what I want to know is if it would be fair to compare the Z06 to the GT500. At a MSRP of $80K, the Z06 is closer in price to the GT500 than the GT500 is to the ZL1. So it still would stand that Ford cannot build anything comparably priced to the ZL1 that can beat the ZL1 at anything.

And not only that but one could argue how much a GT500 would cost if it was optioned comparably to the ZL1. So if someone wanted a GT500 because it could beat a ZL1 but they also wanted heat/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, Nav, blind spot indicators, and other options, on a ZL1 you would still be under $70K and still cheaper than a bare bones base GT500 by a significant amount. Now what would the GT500 cost when optioned similarly?

We all know the CF version will be over $100K when optioned.

So in light of what the competition costs, is it worth $80K+ (base) and $100K+ just to say you can beat a standard ZL1 (at $64K base or under $70K fully optioned) and a ZLE (at $72K or around $75K with options)? And at $74K MSRP, shouldn't the base GT500 be able to beat the ZLE around the track instead of just the ZL1? It seems to me that you're paying a lot of money just to have a car that can beat a much cheaper car at something.

So is it still worth it in that respect?

Agreed. I should have throw price in there as well because the redeye widebody is also closer to the gt500 with that aspect. Was going to say if I'm willing to drop that much coin, I'd rather wait for the me vette pricing before I buy the gt500. Only reason I didn't compare those 2 was only because the vette only has 2 seats, but if we're leaning more towards price comparison then I believe the vette is better. Front or mid engine.
To add even more to the price differences you provided, I picked up my zle for about 65k before ttl in june of 2018. Would be 8-9k under gt500 base msrp. They were still pretty fresh at that point, this was without meeting any criteria for incentive pricing. Could've got another 2k if I had a 1999 or newer trade in. Although it has no nav or pdr. I was just comparing stock to stock but if we throw in $ to $, I could easily drop a few grand, and be even faster than the gt500. Cant wait to see the head to head regardless of how much a better value the zl1 is.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok but let's all remember that IF the B-GT500 can beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile and IF it can also beat it around a track then you're still comparing a $74K vehicle to a $64K vehicle. So the question would then be how much does it beat the ZL1 by and IF it can beat other vehicles that cost $74K MSRP. ALso what I want to know is if it would be fair to compare the Z06 to the GT500. At a MSRP of $80K, the Z06 is closer in price to the GT500 than the GT500 is to the ZL1. So it still would stand that Ford cannot build anything comparably priced to the ZL1 that can beat the ZL1 at anything.

And not only that but one could argue how much a GT500 would cost if it was optioned comparably to the ZL1. So if someone wanted a GT500 because it could beat a ZL1 but they also wanted heat/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, Nav, blind spot indicators, and other options, on a ZL1 you would still be under $70K and still cheaper than a bare bones base GT500 by a significant amount. Now what would the GT500 cost when optioned similarly?

We all know the CF version will be over $100K when optioned.

So in light of what the competition costs, is it worth $80K+ (base) and $100K+ just to say you can beat a standard ZL1 (at $64K base or under $70K fully optioned) and a ZLE (at $72K or around $75K with options)? And at $74K MSRP, shouldn't the base GT500 be able to beat the ZLE around the track instead of just the ZL1? It seems to me that you're paying a lot of money just to have a car that can beat a much cheaper car at something.

So is it still worth it in that respect?

And THAT is where the discussion should really be, in my humble opinion. $74k GT500 vs $64k ZL1. That and $90k-ish CFTP vs $75k ZLE. With either of those pairings, I think it still comes down to what does the buyer value. If you value head-turning appearance, you probably go with the GT500. That may or may not depend on who’s head you’re trying to turn If you value creature comforts and tech toys like PDR and HUD, you probably go ZL1.

We don’t know how they stack up performance-wise and we don’t have enough info from Ford yet to even make logical deductions with more fidelity than a wild-assed guess with a shit-ton of brand preference dosed in. Prediction: It will be capable of a lot more performance than most anybody commenting on it will ever use. That’s really all we know for sure.

[Evansa22]

Also I understand what I payed is irrelevant because we are comparing msrp to msrp. If we played that game the disparity between the zle and gt500 would be even greater.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

As I have proven before, you cannot just walk into any dealership within a 25 mile radius of Ford World HQ or the Flat Rock plant where Mustang is built and find a GT*. Trying to remember my own numbers, because they’re buried so deep in this or another thread that I don’t feel like searching for them....but out of almost 30 Mustang GT PP1 cars I could find on dealer lots in the described territory, only 4 or 5 were GT*. Anybody can ORDER one and I’m sure people who know do that. But the casual buyer walking into the dealership off the street is NOT going to get a GT*. They’ll get a GT, which is nice, and is a driver’s race with any Camaro SS. Or, heaven forbid, they’ll get an M6 GT and trail the pack.

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Is that all you would be willing to travel to get the car you really desire 25-miles? My local dealer has 1 non GT Mustang on the lot and my local Chevy dealer has 1 1SS, I live in truck land. I wouldn't purchase from either as they are known to be much higher priced than dealers in other areas.

I just did a search in my area and there are a 1/2 dozen PP1 401a A10s, and another dozen base GT 301a A10s with the drag mode package within 75-miles of me, but maybe driving an hour or two to a dealer would be too far to travel for some.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

Agreed. I should have throw price in there as well because the redeye widebody is also closer to the gt500 with that aspect. Was going to say if I'm willing to drop that much coin, I'd rather wait for the me vette pricing before I buy the gt500. Only reason I didn't compare those 2 was only because the vette only has 2 seats, but if we're leaning more towards price comparison then I believe the vette is better. Front or mid engine.
To add even more to the price differences you provided, I picked up my zle for about 65k before ttl in june of 2018. Would be 8-9k under gt500 base msrp. They were still pretty fresh at that point, this was without meeting any criteria for incentive pricing. Could've got another 2k if I had a 1999 or newer trade in. Although it has no nav or pdr. I was just comparing stock to stock but if we throw in $ to $, I could easily drop a few grand, and be even faster than the gt500. Cant wait to see the head to head regardless of how much a better value the zl1 is.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

And THAT is where the discussion should really be, in my humble opinion. $74k GT500 vs $64k ZL1. That and $90k-ish CFTP vs $75k ZLE. With either of those pairings, I think it still comes down to what does the buyer value. If you value head-turning appearance, you probably go with the GT500. That may or may not depend on who’s head you’re trying to turn If you value creature comforts and tech toys like PDR and HUD, you probably go ZL1.

We don’t know how they stack up performance-wise and we don’t have enough info from Ford yet to even make logical deductions with more fidelity than a wild-assed guess with a shit-ton of brand preference dosed in. Prediction: It will be capable of a lot more performance than most anybody commenting on it will ever use. That’s really all we know for sure.

One thing I am curious about is if the GT500 in all versions will have heated and cooled seats as standard. I think I saw that they have heated steering wheel as standard. The ZL1 is the only car in this league that offers it standard now. Even the Hellcat and RE has to have it optioned in now.

Anywhoo. I'm doing some comparisons.

My ZL1 came to $69,790 MSRP and that included CF exposed hood insert, Nav, PDR, locking lugnuts, battery charger, car cover, sunroof, and A10 trans. A new ZLE with A10 would be $73,185.

My Hellcat came to $70,970 MSRP and that included sunroof, satin hood (I would not have optioned that in, it came on the car so I was stuck with it), Summer tires (See Satin hood), and Brass Monkey rims (see Summer tires, LOL). If I ordered it I would have got it without the BM rims, Summer tires, and Satin hood which would have made it $67,285.

The GT500 I just priced out that I would want (if Base model) came out to $78,590. That includes the Recaro leather seats and the tech pack. The CF version would be $97,090 with those same options.

A standard Hellcat optioned the way I would want would be $72,610. A WB Hellcat the way I want would be $78,610. A Redeye the way I want is $80,615. And a Redeye WB for me would be $86,615.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Is that all you would be willing to travel to get the car you really desire 25-miles? My local dealer has 1 non GT Mustang on the lot and my local Chevy dealer has 1 1SS, I live in truck land. I wouldn't purchase from either as they are known to be much higher priced than dealers in other areas.

I just did a search in my area and there are a 1/2 dozen PP1 401a A10s, and another dozen base GT 301a A10s with the drag mode package within 75-miles of me, but maybe driving an hour or two to a dealer would be too far to travel for some.

I have a handful of dealers that I like to do business with. If they don’t have it, I order it or I ask my dealer to bring it in through a dealer trade. It’s not about traveling, since I drive an awful lot and love it. It’s about dealing with people who I like and trust and who are invested in making certain that if/when I need service I am taken care of.

The point I continue to try to make is that to the buyer who is new to the Mustang world and not up on all the trims and order codes, walking in off the street they are going to buy as much Mustang as they can afford and that is available on the dealer’s lot. In most cases that will not be a GT*. To guys who are NOT new to Mustang, they’ll probably search for the content they want AND they will know what content is actually important. Same holds true for Corvettes and Camaros. And Chargers and Challengers.

Case in point...because FCA had a long-standing promotion that would put anybody in a 5.7L Challenger for $239/month, Challenger R/T sales EXPLODED in my area. I can barely turn a corner without seeing a Challenger R/T. Some of these buyers are new to muscle cars. They think because “that thang got a Hemi” they can pull up on GTs and SSs and rule the stoplight. I don’t run them because I like my license. Sometimes when I don’t, they think they’ve done something. I actually have run R/Ts twice and the beat downs were staggering and very enjoyable. In one situation I was on an expressway, top down, with my bike racked on the back. R/T was being an ass, so I toasted him on a roll. The other time, again, an R/T being an ass. Not to me, but to everyone around me. He would not have noticed me because of what I was driving. We’ll get to that. He had just bought the car and had a temporary plate. He was light-jumping at every intersection, no matter who was next to him and whether or not they knew they were racing. I wound up next to him and when the light changed, I roasted him. In a BMW i3 electric car. Was only about 1/8 mile stoplight to stoplight and he would have caught me in a quarter, but I enjoyed making him question his car.

What’s my point? Lots of first time GT buyers who are not aware of the nuance of the PP1 + 10AT + Drag Mode will have the impression that ANY GT will outrun ANY SS. Not true. Most SS will outrun most GT. The GT* is the exception, not the rule.

Took this pic after I got to the park after toasting the R/T....

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I have a handful of dealers that I like to do business with. If they don’t have it, I order it or I ask my dealer to bring it in through a dealer trade. It’s not about traveling, since I drive an awful lot and love it. It’s about dealing with people who I like and trust and who are invested in making certain that if/when I need service I am taken care of.

The point I continue to try to make is that to the buyer who is new to the Mustang world and not up on all the trims and order codes, walking in off the street they are going to buy as much Mustang as they can afford and that is available on the dealer’s lot. In most cases that will not be a GT*. To guys who are NOT new to Mustang, they’ll probably search for the content they want AND they will know what content is actually important. Same holds true for Corvettes and Camaros. And Chargers and Challengers.

Case in point...because FCA had a long-standing promotion that would put anybody in a 5.7L Challenger for $239/month, Challenger R/T sales EXPLODED in my area. I can barely turn a corner without seeing a Challenger R/T. Some of these buyers are new to muscle cars. They think because “that thang got a Hemi” they can pull up on GTs and SSs and rule the stoplight. I don’t run them because I like my license. Sometimes when I don’t, they think they’ve done something. I actually have run R/Ts twice and the beat downs were staggering and very enjoyable. In one situation I was on an expressway, top down, with my bike racked on the back. R/T was being an ass, so I toasted him on a roll. The other time, again, an R/T being an ass. Not to me, but to everyone around me. He would not have noticed me because of what I was driving. We’ll get to that. He had just bought the car and had a temporary plate. He was light-jumping at every intersection, no matter who was next to him and whether or not they knew they were racing. I wound up next to him and when the light changed, I roasted him. In a BMW i3 electric car. Was only about 1/8 mile stoplight to stoplight and he would have caught me in a quarter, but I enjoyed making him question his car.

What’s my point? Lots of first time GT buyers who are not aware of the nuance of the PP1 + 10AT + Drag Mode will have the impression that ANY GT will outrun ANY SS. Not true. Most SS will outrun most GT. The GT* is the exception, not the rule.

Took this pic after I got to the park after toasting the R/T....

I agree with you about a person who is not up on Mustangs and what to order and coming in off the street to buy one. That person will likely end up purchasing something that isn't what he thought it would be. With the SS that doesn't happen. Because all SS Camaros come with the full experience. But then again you're also paying a bit more for the SS. A guy who goes to the Ford dealership will probably have the base GT but he'll get it for a steal.

On the other hand, that guy who goes in to buy one off the street and isn't up on things probably will not care about going to the track anyway. And chances are they'll run into a few SS Camaro owners who may or may not be good drivers. In a non-track environment with non-racers, it could go either way depending on multiple factors. So the guy might not end up in a GT*, but what are the chances that he'll need it or even realize it. Also, that is why it is always recommended to research and ask questions before you buy.

One thing I'll comment on about those RT guys...it might be that they were
just enjoying their Hemi Challenger. Especially if it was new with temp tags still on it. He might not have been trying to flex on people. He might just have wanted to feel the acceleration and hear that V8. Even tho the Hemi 5.7s are antiquated and the slowest of the V8s by a large margin, it is still a V8 with more HP and TQ than a lot of first time buyers are used to. And it comes in a really great looking package for a good price. So these people might have just been drunk off that. Or maybe they do think they are badasses. I had one guy in a RT challenge me in my ZL1. I asked him if he knew what he was up against and he said he wasn't worried about all that. LOL!! But at some point these guys realize what they have and what is out there and then they either calm down or upgrade. Or they get used to the HP and calm down. But to me it sounds like these guys are drunk on key words like "Hemi", "V8", "Challenger", "horsepower and torque", "Muscle Car", and they just want to drive fast and have fun.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

.....

But to me it sounds like these guys are drunk on key words like "Hemi", "V8", "Challenger", "horsepower and torque", "Muscle Car", and they just want to drive fast and have fun.

I get what you’re saying here, and I see more that fit that category than the couple that I’ve described. There’s driving fast because you just bought your first fast car and there’s being an ass. The two I described were being asses. The one on the expressway kept pulling up next to me and gunning it enough to lift his front end and staring me down the entire time. If I changed lanes, he changed lanes. Hard to mistake that. The other guy was weaving in and out of traffic to make certain he got to the front at each light so that he could peel out at the light. That may have been a bit of what you described, but the way he ran up on some cars was uncalled for.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Detroit.....

https://youtu.be/jZM_YEnRi88

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I get what you’re saying here, and I see more that fit that category than the couple that I’ve described. There’s driving fast because you just bought your first fast car and there’s being an ass. The two I described were being asses. The one on the expressway kept pulling up next to me and gunning it enough to lift his front end and staring me down the entire time. If I changed lanes, he changed lanes. Hard to mistake that. The other guy was weaving in and out of traffic to make certain he got to the front at each light so that he could peel out at the light. That may have been a bit of what you described, but the way he ran up on some cars was uncalled for.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Detroit.....

https://youtu.be/jZM_YEnRi88

Looks just like a Dodge commercial

[BlaqWhole]

Not for nothin...but this is what makes it difficult for those of us who are respectful and drive in a spirited safe manner every now and then.

But the skeptical paranoid conspiracy side of me would not be surprised if this was a staged situation set up by law enforcement so they could crack down on whatever they have on their agenda. Or so they could pass some legislation into effect or for some other purpose. These days social media is soo staged and every viral video is soo fake that I don't believe anything anymore. Kinda like the video of the guy driving backwards in LA on Laurel Canyon. No way that wasn't staged.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not for nothin...but this is what makes it difficult for those of us who are respectful and drive in a spirited safe manner every now and then.

But the skeptical paranoid conspiracy side of me would not be surprised if this was a staged situation set up by law enforcement so they could crack down on whatever they have on their agenda. Or so they could pass some legislation into effect or for some other purpose. These days social media is soo staged and every viral video is soo fake that I don't believe anything anymore. Kinda like the video of the guy driving backwards in LA on Laurel Canyon. No way that wasn't staged.

I can G-U-A-R-A-N-T-E-E you that there is no law enforcement conspiracy here. This is in my backyard. On weekends I can hear the “dragstrip” from my front lawn. There is a stretch of a major road two blocks from my house that has begun to be the hotspot. Just waiting for law enforcement to figure it out and start towing cars.

OK....back to GT500 vs ZL1.

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

One thing I'll comment on about those RT guys...it might be that they were
just enjoying their Hemi Challenger. Especially if it was new with temp tags still on it. He might not have been trying to flex on people. He might just have wanted to feel the acceleration and hear that V8. Even tho the Hemi 5.7s are antiquated and the slowest of the V8s by a large margin, it is still a V8 with more HP and TQ than a lot of first time buyers are used to. And it comes in a really great looking package for a good price. So these people might have just been drunk off that. Or maybe they do think they are badasses. I had one guy in a RT challenge me in my ZL1. I asked him if he knew what he was up against and he said he wasn't worried about all that. LOL!! But at some point these guys realize what they have and what is out there and then they either calm down or upgrade. Or they get used to the HP and calm down. But to me it sounds like these guys are drunk on key words like "Hemi", "V8", "Challenger", "horsepower and torque", "Muscle Car", and they just want to drive fast and have fun.

Sometimes it's just about fun. I 'ran' both an obviously modded 911 turbo and a new C7 ZR1 on the freeway. I knew I'd get a smackdown but I just wanted to see/hear them go. There were thumbs up all around afterwards and we went our separate ways.

I'd do the same if I saw a GT500 on the road.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I have a handful of dealers that I like to do business with. If they don’t have it, I order it or I ask my dealer to bring it in through a dealer trade. It’s not about traveling, since I drive an awful lot and love it. It’s about dealing with people who I like and trust and who are invested in making certain that if/when I need service I am taken care of.

The point I continue to try to make is that to the buyer who is new to the Mustang world and not up on all the trims and order codes, walking in off the street they are going to buy as much Mustang as they can afford and that is available on the dealer’s lot. In most cases that will not be a GT*. To guys who are NOT new to Mustang, they’ll probably search for the content they want AND they will know what content is actually important. Same holds true for Corvettes and Camaros. And Chargers and Challengers.

Case in point...because FCA had a long-standing promotion that would put anybody in a 5.7L Challenger for $239/month, Challenger R/T sales EXPLODED in my area. I can barely turn a corner without seeing a Challenger R/T. Some of these buyers are new to muscle cars. They think because “that thang got a Hemi” they can pull up on GTs and SSs and rule the stoplight. I don’t run them because I like my license. Sometimes when I don’t, they think they’ve done something. I actually have run R/Ts twice and the beat downs were staggering and very enjoyable. In one situation I was on an expressway, top down, with my bike racked on the back. R/T was being an ass, so I toasted him on a roll. The other time, again, an R/T being an ass. Not to me, but to everyone around me. He would not have noticed me because of what I was driving. We’ll get to that. He had just bought the car and had a temporary plate. He was light-jumping at every intersection, no matter who was next to him and whether or not they knew they were racing. I wound up next to him and when the light changed, I roasted him. In a BMW i3 electric car. Was only about 1/8 mile stoplight to stoplight and he would have caught me in a quarter, but I enjoyed making him question his car.

What’s my point? Lots of first time GT buyers who are not aware of the nuance of the PP1 + 10AT + Drag Mode will have the impression that ANY GT will outrun ANY SS. Not true. Most SS will outrun most GT. The GT* is the exception, not the rule.

Took this pic after I got to the park after toasting the R/T....

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I believe the base A10 GT has also run 12.20s running 235 series tires and 3:15 gears, so while this option may not be faster, it is right there with the Camaro's fastest optioned SS. Where the GT fails is with the manual version as discussed many times over in this forum.

Back to your point I would think that somebody who is aware that the GT is capable of 11-second passes would also be aware of how to option the vehicle. The same way someone who is purchasing a manual ZL1 wouldn't expect it to be capable of published A10 11:40 times. But I am sure there are some uneducated buyers out there so technically you may be correct.

Also no criticism of Dodge from me. Chevy and Ford could learn a thing or two from them.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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I believe the base A10 GT has also run 12.20s running 235 series tires and 3:15 gears, so while this option may not be faster, it is right there with the Camaro's fastest optioned SS. Where the GT fails is with the manual version as discussed many times over in this forum.

Back to your point I would think that somebody who is aware that the GT is capable of 11-second passes would also be aware of how to option the vehicle. The same way someone who is purchasing a manual ZL1 wouldn't expect it to be capable of published A10 11:40 times. But I am sure there are some uneducated buyers out there so technically you may be correct.

Also no criticism of Dodge from me. Chevy and Ford could learn a thing or two from them.

One thing I notice that you do is you criticize the SS for being slower than the GT*...but then when a standard GT is slower than the SS you tend to say that it is close or you downplay it. In all realness they all are close enough. However it just seems that when the GT is faster it is by a small amount but when the SS is faster it is by a large amount.

I agree about them learning a thing or two from Dodge. But that is just because the trend has shifted. Remember, people criticized the 5th Gen Camaros for being too big and too heavy. During that time the Challengers sold like shit. All of a sudden the trend is now that people want performance but they also want to shove 4 grown men in the car comfortably and stuff the trunk full of luggage and see everything in a 360 view. So in a way, Dodge kinda just lucked out. If the trend had stayed towards cars that are smaller and weigh less and can handle well then the Challenger would still be selling less than half of what the Camaro sells.