[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

SWEEEEET!!! See the German's get it.

Probably has to do with the fact that manual trans is much more popular in Europe, but yeah, gotta give the Germans props on that.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I am fully aware of all that. Enough to realize that comparing the internal workings is not a relevant approach to categorizing a DCT.

That a DCT is generally similar internally to a conventional MT does not address the defining characteristic that separates the manual transmission from any variation of automated transmission. That being whether the transmission has any capability of its own to select and execute gear changes without driver involvement beyond specifying 'D' or some other forward-direction range.



Exactly.

A DCT is also going to force the driver to drive away from every full stop in exactly the same fashion as if he was driving a car with a conventional torque converter'd, planetary gear'd automatic. For most drivers, it's going to end up being driven in identical fashion to the way it'd be driven if was equipped with a conventional automatic transmission - select 'D' and drive until you need a function that 'D' cannot support.


Norm

Yeah, exactly my point. 99.99999% of people don't give a flip on how a transmission works. PRND and 2 pedals are an automatic transmission. Done.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And considering a DCT (IMHO) is the far better choice (basically an automated manual with better controls than my right arm and left leg), manual penetration would likely drop even further.

Maybe not if you count driver satisfaction for much, or have any interest in trying to make the driver (you) as good as humanly possible. Making the machine better can't do those things.


Norm

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Just going to leave this here for those who think the manual market, especially one cars over 150K is dead:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39478/...l-transmission

"The Porsche 911 GT3 has always been one of the brand's most fun-to-drive track day specials, and for many drivers, there is no substitute for a manual transmission. Porsche's decision to put a manual transmission back into the 911 GT3 paid off far more than the brand expected, especially in the United States, where the take rate for the last-generation manual GT3 was 70%, Bloomberg reports. "

That's awesome that Porsche still offers it.

Correct me if I am wrong though, isn't it the same transmission that it originally had vs having to have a new one developed? That could be important when discussing this

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's awesome that Porsche still offers it.

Correct me if I am wrong though, isn't it the same transmission that it originally had vs having to have a new one developed? That could be important when discussing this

This comes up in plenty of places. Everyone believes that no manufacturer would build a manual for a ME Corvette...

Yet R8 V10s and Gallardos had manuals.

The truth is, no manufacturer would produce one for what GM set their budget at.

My point is that the market is clearly there, and the example is shown to further discredit the manual is dying crowd - especially in expensive sports cars.

So GM projected 15% manual sales based on what I will say and stand behind as incorrect and very poor forecasting (again evidenced by total 911 and Corvette manual take rates hovering around 25+%). If they approached Tremec, etc with a budget for a manual based on 25% take rate instead of 15%, one could guess the budget allotment to be certainly higher, and perhaps change the decision outcome. It's all speculation and there is no going back.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

This comes up in plenty of places. Everyone believes that no manufacturer would build a manual for a ME Corvette...

Yet R8 V10s and Gallardos had manuals.

The truth is, no manufacturer would produce one for what GM set their budget at.

My point is that the market is clearly there, and the example is shown to further discredit the manual is dying crowd - especially in expensive sports cars.

So GM projected 15% manual sales based on what I will say and stand behind as incorrect and very poor forecasting (again evidenced by total 911 and Corvette manual take rates hovering around 25+%). If they approached Tremec, etc with a budget for a manual based on 25% take rate instead of 15%, one could guess the budget allotment to be certainly higher, and perhaps change the decision outcome. It's all speculation and there is no going back.

And honestly, one of the things that might keep me out of a Corvette. I am well aware GM does not care about me and my 1 Vette but that car (in a Vert) is approaching 718 Spyder territory and I can get that in a manual.

I know 2 different cars and the Vette is "faster", but for guys like me it is about the driving experience not the flat out speed. I can make my manual car faster but I cannot add a manual to a C8 Vette.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

And honestly, one of the things that might keep me out of a Corvette. I am well aware GM does not care about me and my 1 Vette but that car (in a Vert) is approaching 718 Spyder territory and I can get that in a manual.

I know 2 different cars and the Vette is "faster", but for guys like me it is about the driving experience not the flat out speed. I can make my manual car faster but I cannot add a manual to a C8 Vette.

Agreed. I wanted the Corvette to go Mid-Engine as per Duntov's dream long before it became popular. I also will only own manual sports cars...so while I love the availability of the DCT for those who choose it, no manual, means no ME Corvette for me. That's massively disappointing for me. I am a C8 customer GM lost, as I am forced to look at other brands moving forward, and I'm far from the only one.

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Agreed. I wanted the Corvette to go Mid-Engine as per Duntov's dream long before it became popular. I also will only own manual sports cars...so while I love the availability of the DCT for those who choose it, no manual, means no ME Corvette for me. That's massively disappointing for me. I am a C8 customer GM lost, as I am forced to look at other brands moving forward, and I'm far from the only one.

Its funny you guys mention disliking how the C8 has no manual option. I recently read a review for the new Cayman GT4 and really liked how it comes in a 6spd manual (and no turbos!) and I think that really makes a big difference in a car like that. Sure, with a DCT it will be faster in a straight line and on a road course. Turbos would also make it much more user friendly and not as raw. But its about the feeling and experience you get from the car, not lap times.

Of course you could definitely extract some crazy lap times from the GT4 even with the manual. But you gotta work for it which is missing from some performance cars today imo

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by xc_SS/RS

Its funny you guys mention disliking how the C8 has no manual option. I recently read a review for the new Cayman GT4 and really liked how it comes in a 6spd manual (and no turbos!) and I think that really makes a big difference in a car like that. Sure, with a DCT it will be faster in a straight line and on a road course. Turbos would also make it much more user friendly and not as raw. But its about the feeling and experience you get from the car, not lap times.

Of course you could definitely extract some crazy lap times from the GT4 even with the manual. But you gotta work for it which is missing from some performance cars today imo

Precisely. I had a long post on the Corvette Forum more than a year ago describing exactly this.

Especially considering that I pay to own the car, pay for track time, and pay for all consumables...the absolute best way for ME to get the most out of my money invested, is to increase driver skill, which includes manually controlling the gear selection through a foot operated clutch, and a mechanical shift linkage to the transmission (cable, rod, direct). I do not attend events with any significant amount of cash prizes for winning, nor competitive lapping events - only timed...so absolute fastest lap times are not important to me. Improving my own lap times are, however.

BTW, a Z51 C7 M7 lapped quicker than a Z51 C8 DCT at the same track...can't remember the specific track, it was brought up on the Corvette Forum lengthy thread. I think we can all agree, the C7 driver likely had more skill in this scenario...still shows that manuals can be competitive in the right hands.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

This comes up in plenty of places. Everyone believes that no manufacturer would build a manual for a ME Corvette...

Yet R8 V10s and Gallardos had manuals.

The truth is, no manufacturer would produce one for what GM set their budget at.

My point is that the market is clearly there, and the example is shown to further discredit the manual is dying crowd - especially in expensive sports cars.

So GM projected 15% manual sales based on what I will say and stand behind as incorrect and very poor forecasting (again evidenced by total 911 and Corvette manual take rates hovering around 25+%). If they approached Tremec, etc with a budget for a manual based on 25% take rate instead of 15%, one could guess the budget allotment to be certainly higher, and perhaps change the decision outcome. It's all speculation and there is no going back.

I am not trying to disagree that it probably should have been offered, just playing devils advocate again.

You mentioned they offer manuals in R8, Gallardo, Porsche etc. Well all those are owned by VW so they can share the costs among them and use the same transmission in all of them(I am not sure if it is, totally guessing)

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am not trying to disagree that it probably should have been offered, just playing devils advocate again.

You mentioned they offer manuals in R8, Gallardo, Porsche etc. Well all those are owned by VW so they can share the costs among them and use the same transmission in all of them(I am not sure if it is, totally guessing)

Gallardo/R8 only. Both total much less volume than even 20% of Corvette sales which is a lower percentage than any Corvette C7 manual sales breakdown.

[shaffe]

touche - carry on lol

[Martinjlm]

At the end of the day, GM made a decision to not offer an MT. We can argue until the cows come home about why they made the decision. They’ve told us why they made the decision. Believe them or don’t. I was there when the decision was made, though not part of the decision making team. What Tadge and Ed are saying now is consistent with what they’ve said internally. Understand that there were multiple factors, not just a single factor, and most of them have come up here. Similar discussions took place internally and the decision still came out in favor of no MT.

Some here argue that the decision leaves15 - 20% of volume on the table (the 15-20% of cars that could have been sold as MT if there was one). But, at the end of the day, the plant is running at capacity, so they could not have produced 15 - 20% more cars with any transmission. If less than 100% of the cars are DCT, then the cost of the DCT likely goes up, making the car more expensive, as well as having to engineer, certify, and supply a low volume high cost MT.

So, if you’re GM, you haven’t lost any sales, you’re amortizing the cost of the DCT across 100% of your volume, not 85%, and you spent no money tooling up or certifying an MT. If you’re GM, you’re probably good with that.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

touche - carry on lol

I completely fail to understand why anyone who is a car enthusiast would support not having a manual option...

If manuals are old and antiquated, so are DCTs or any geared transmission. The same argument can be made to ditch ICE and transmissions entirely for EVs, especially if someone is using acceleration performance as their basis of argument.

I'm not against EVs, I just won't own one for a sports car. An EV would make a killer DD, but I also don't like supporting Chinese battery production, or Cobalt sourcing from the Congo. Some of these we have touched on already.

Back on topic - Mach E will sell...I'm sad it got Mustang branded, but I think it will be a hit for Ford fans.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I completely fail to understand why anyone who is a car enthusiast would support not having a manual option...

If manuals are old and antiquated, so are DCTs or any geared transmission. The same argument can be made to ditch ICE and transmissions entirely for EVs, especially if someone is using acceleration performance as their basis of argument.

I'm not against EVs, I just won't own one for a sports car. An EV would make a killer DD, but I also don't like supporting Chinese battery production, or Cobalt sourcing from the Congo. Some of these we have touched on already.

Back on topic - Mach E will sell...I'm sad it got Mustang branded, but I think it will be a hit for Ford fans.

In certain applications I understand no manual offered(IE Demon) and I agree that C8 should have offered one. I am just trying to keep the conversation moving as it's slow at the office right now while I am waiting for material to show up lol.