[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Still, I find it funny how quick people discredit 20 horsepower that took minimal upgrades for the Bullett V8. GM could have easily modified the LT1 for the Z/28 or even used the 6.6 liter V8 but GM chose not to.

That is my biggest complaint with GM. They develop engines and release them and don't consider what the competition is fielding. The Alpha chassis is better by a massive margin. The chassis doesn't translate into sales. No Alpha based car sells well. GM is completely unwilling to deviate from their formula, even at the expense of sales or the brand as a whole. Because GM is so rigid in their decision making, the Camaro will likely die again.

I agree with you on this stuff. The Camaro needs sales to live on. Horsepower sells and the marketing is just non-existent. Dodge kills it in these areas and it's showing.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I just realized he said the ss 1le is "about as quick as the pp2" around a track, insinuating that the pp2 is quicker... and that it's "potentially capable of being slightly faster than a pp2 with the same tires" lol.

This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't something already discussed and brought up to these guys before, time after time. They hang their hat on the lightning lap times of the pp2 vs the 1le. The one they know was done by different drivers (editors at that) on different days.

When they already know that when they were run on the Laguna Seca by the same pro driver in Randy Pobst, granted different days, the ss 1le put the faster time up.

Ofcourse the Throttle House comparison were they had the same tires is reduced to "slightly faster", even though it was over a second difference in a small track. 1:11.5 vs 1:12.7. Most of these close match ups are usually seperated by tenths of a second.

So the ss 1le isn't potentially slightly faster on the same tire, it's been faster on the oem tires too.

The gt350 vs the ss 1le is atleast debatable, because the 1le could faster before the 2019 cup 2 tire update for the base gt350, but now the newer gt350s have a tire advantage and did put up a faster Laguna Seca time than the 1le.

Originally Posted by LESS1

Camaro very well may go away again, however this doesn't diminish the fact that it is a superior car to Mustang. Delusion is folks like yourself that like to flaunt sales... and go on about how great your Mustnag aren't.... opps sorry are.

It really sucks that this is the reality

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Here's a dyno chart of the LS3, LS7 and LT1. You can see how the LT1 drops way off after the peak torque at 4600 RPM. It ends up at LS3 torque levels by redline. The LS3 and LS7 both carry their torque curves much better than the LT1.

Ford has always been pushing their engines. Sure, the 4.6 hung around way too long but they made improvements along the way. Ford had the Coyote in development before the 5th gen Camaro was launched. They had the supercharged GT500 well before the Camaro came back. The 662 horsepower GT500 was in the works before the ZL1 was revealed.

I agree, GM suffers from the good enough mindset. They should be looking to push things as far as possible, but they don't. Ford and Dodge both do a much better job of creating interesting engines. GM, no so much.

Of course, this is all before the FPC V8 in the C8 is revealed. Maybe GM is finally getting over the "good enough" mentality.

I dunno, if "good enough" means better reliability, I am all for it. I didn't buy the car for the mechanic. Ultimately I think the warranty claims might cost more than the benefits they see from the "now our car has 20 BHP more* Disclaimer: only if you rev to 5k RPM on a regular basis."

And when the "good enough" mentality is done well, it actually works, too. That's how Toyota sells its cars, and heck, even Lotus uses the Toyota engines. They may not have the highest BHP/litre or whatever but just try and destroy a Toyota engine.

Looking at Ford, they seem to rush at whatever that's "hip" in the car industry. Their DCT is an example. Heh, everyone else is doing it, so why not? Shelby GT350 engine is cool, no denying it, but that's only if you overlook the engine failure stories. As someone else said, buying an early Ford car always seems to be a gamble where they are using you as a Guinea Pig.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

GT350 and GT350R are every bit the sports car that any Camaro (costing much less money) is.

I don't even waste time arguing with these guys anymore. Anyone who can't see the Shelbys for the overpriced heaps they are is delusional. The GT350(R) is nowhere close to anything GM puts out costing over $60K. And we still haven seen the 500 up against a similarly priced C7 Z06 or ZR1.

Lol. The only Camaros that the 350s can match are the SSs. And I'd buy a SS over any GT350 any day.

That's the thing with Shelby. I recall arguing once with one of my buddies on the GT350. C7 Z51 excels at almost all objective aspects. Other than the Voodoo engine(only considering the "coolness" here, not reliability) I don't see why I'd choose a GT350 over a C7 Z51.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You fanboys are delusional. The Camaro is going to die off again and you think it’s the greatest car ever.

How are the two related? Just curious.

You'd better hope the Camaro does not go away. Because if even one of the Big Three gets dismissed then that will spell certain doom for the entire industry of high HP, RWD, V8, performance. All three of them are hanging on by a thread anyway. So don't start talking all cocky. Plus remember when this happened last time and the Mustnag boys were stuck with high 13 second Mustangs until 2011. LOL!! I remember a report about how the 350Z was giving them trouble and the 370Z was all but beating them. And that is in a straight line. Around turns the 370Z was killing them. If the Camaro goes, then the GT500 will probably be soo pathetic that it'll end up getting compared to WRXs...wait a sec...

Frod is a sham. They scam people into thinking they're getting something great when really they aren't. The 1st Gen Coyote could have been 435 HP back in 2011. But Frod watered it down twice (to 420 and 411). They dropped the weakest one in the 2011. Then 2 years later they dropped the second version (420 output). Then in 2015 they finally dropped the 435 version. They had that 435 version all along but they made people think they were doing upgrades to it. GM gave all it had for the 5th Gen and then went to work on the 6th Gen. Then GM unleashed all Hell on Frod and that 435 proved to be lame. So they had to up it to 460 which was a panic move. And this 480 version is probably unstable as crap. Meanwhile GM has been working on the next project which was the C8 and the 7th Gen. And what do we get from that? Well for $60K you can get a low 11 sec Corvette. What does $60K get you at the Frod camp? A Bullitt...or spend a little more and you'll get this upcoming Mach1 which won't hold a candle to anything in it's price range. So it's nice that people only see the small picture when it comes to these cars. Oh how come the Camaro never gets updated? Well maybe because GM isn't scamming people by building an engine and then watering it down and then "upgrading" it over the course of 6 years. And maybe GM is working on putting out other killer projects instead of 20 different versions of the same damn car. What's next, a 480 HP Boss 302 with PP2-ish suspension that still runs the same low 12 in the quarter? They already have like 5 different Mustangs all offering the same low level of performance while costing close to, if not more than, base ZL1 money and costing more than Base C8s cost. PP2, Bullitt, Mach1, GT350, GT350R...all lame and all basically the same level of performance costing up to $75K.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

How is the graph severe when the LS3 and LS7 are on the same graph and the same scale? It shows the torque curve of the LT1 in an identical manner to the LS3 and LS7.

The graph is severe because it shows a much bigger torque dip than most other lt1 graphs? So what if its on the same graph as the ls3 and ls7 on there, doesn't change the fact that it shows a severe torque drop off compared to other lt1 graphs?

You know this and its obvious, but again this one graph is convenient to your argument.

This all started with you erroneously talking about the 5.0s "top end" advantage. I showed you that the top end your talking about was due to gearing. Regardless of your critique of the lt1s power/torque curve it performs well up top so its a moot point.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Those stang guys are tricky, kind of like the small print the dealership sales guys try to rush you past. But you already know this!

Oh ofcourse, its fun to really break down what these guys type and their clever word choices. Just like the fine print and asterisks lol.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You fanboys are delusional. The Camaro is going to die off again and you think it’s the greatest car ever.

Do you work for Ford? Why do you care about sales? The Dodge Viper was a beast, didn't sell well and died. Who cares, still a beast. If sales

The mustang is a badass car and sells well, the camaro is the better sports car regardless of sales.

Most of us don't buy our camaros cars for their practicality or how popular it is but rather how good of a sports car it is. If I had to compromise I'd just get a charger because it's not like the mustang is really that much more "livable".

Like many uninformed people you're probably still basing your camaro vs mustang impressions on the 5th gen camaro, which is a dog and a pig next to a 6th gen.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ The SS came here to keep the holden plant moving.

I was not a fan of the SS styling, but I sure wish that car was still around. It would probably be tops on my list when my lease is up. Used ones around me with lots of miles are still fetching top $

I was a fan, and after my gto I was really impressed with Holdens. With some slightly more aggressive styling it could have done better sales wise, potentially.

The SS also had an m6 option which for me puts it over a charger personally.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I agree with you on this stuff. The Camaro needs sales to live on. Horsepower sells and the marketing is just non-existent. Dodge kills it in these areas and it's showing.





It really sucks that this is the reality

I wish Dodge would have been as enthusiastic about the Viper as it was with the Challenger/Charger. I get it wasn't a money maker like the other two, but with some more effort and perhaps lower trims it could have probably done a bit better.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

How are the two related? Just curious.

You'd better hope the Camaro does not go away. Because if even one of the Big Three gets dismissed then that will spell certain doom for the entire industry of high HP, RWD, V8, performance. All three of them are hanging on by a thread anyway.

Well he does sort of have a point. Some people here act like someone is bashing their child if they say anything negative about the camaro. Even if it is someone who used to work at GM like Number 3. Or even if its a legit concern the response is usually oh it doesn't matter it's good enough for me or I live alone I don't care if theres no room or its not my daily driver I don't care. People here let the enthusiast in them take over.

You pointed out Ford has continually updated the Mustang since 2011. Yes they have. IS that because they fumbled the ball more than a few times sure is but the point is they still keep investing in the current product to keep interest up. Not only trying to lure people away from competition but also try to give people a reason to trade up. Maybe somebody with 15-17 S550 wants to trade up now to an 18+ because of something like PP2, Bullitt or Mach (despite that fact you don't like it which is totally fair but it if helps sell another car isn't that the goal)

I will use you as an example now, you leased your HC correct? Now not everyone is as well of financially as you blaq so just hear me out.

Say you leased a Camaro SS in 2017. Your lease is up how likely are you to lease the same car again if it's virtually unchanged from your current car or maybe you look to the competition to see what they have. BUT maybe if GM had upped the power or added new models and not just sticker packages maybe you'd get another camaro. that is the advantage of continually updating. Or even not in the lease end you just get people that are dumb with money and keep trading up lol. There are plenty of people here who have already had multiple 6th gens for various reasons. Think of how many more multiple owners there could be if they did updates /new models like Ford and Dodge do.

I think some of the frustrations come from the fact the GM has the know how/ability and in some cases all the stuff is right there for them to do it and they are just like nah were good with adding another choice of $3,000 sticker packages. And its not like GM doesn't continually update their other vehicles through out the generation

I don't want Camaro to go away. Competition makes everyone better. It just makes me sad that I can't even consider a Camaro when my lease is up.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Do you work for Ford? Why do you care about sales? The Dodge Viper was a beast, didn't sell well and died. Who cares, still a beast. If sales


Most of us don't buy our camaros cars for their practicality or how popular it is but rather how good of a sports car it is. If I had to compromise I'd just get a charger because it's not like the mustang is really that much more "livable".

I read an article on the demise of the viper the other day actually. Lower trims was one of the things the article mentioned might have saved it since the Z06/Z07 was breathing right down its neck for considerably less.

As far as practicality its been beat to death but in my case for me it would be just enough more. It's more the trunk/opening and space for me and now especially with a kid in a car seat that little bit of extra trunk space can go a long way

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I was a fan, and after my gto I was really impressed with Holdens. With some slightly more aggressive styling it could have done better sales wise, potentially.

The SS also had an m6 option which for me puts it over a charger personally.

I think the biggest problem the SS had was that it was essentially fully loaded.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well he does sort of have a point. Some people here act like someone is bashing their child if they say anything negative about the camaro. Even if it is someone who used to work at GM like Number 3. Or even if its a legit concern the response is usually oh it doesn't matter it's good enough for me or I live alone I don't care if theres no room or its not my daily driver I don't care. People here let the enthusiast in them take over.

You pointed out Ford has continually updated the Mustang since 2011. Yes they have. IS that because they fumbled the ball more than a few times sure is but the point is they still keep investing in the current product to keep interest up. Not only trying to lure people away from competition but also try to give people a reason to trade up. Maybe somebody with 15-17 S550 wants to trade up now to an 18+ because of something like PP2, Bullitt or Mach (despite that fact you don't like it which is totally fair but it if helps sell another car isn't that the goal)

I will use you as an example now, you leased your HC correct? Now not everyone is as well of financially as you blaq so just hear me out.

Say you leased a Camaro SS in 2017. Your lease is up how likely are you to lease the same car again if it's virtually unchanged from your current car or maybe you look to the competition to see what they have. BUT maybe if GM had upped the power or added new models and not just sticker packages maybe you'd get another camaro. that is the advantage of continually updating. Or even not in the lease end you just get people that are dumb with money and keep trading up lol. There are plenty of people here who have already had multiple 6th gens for various reasons. Think of how many more multiple owners there could be if they did updates /new models like Ford and Dodge do.

I think some of the frustrations come from the fact the GM has the know how/ability and in some cases all the stuff is right there for them to do it and they are just like nah were good with adding another choice of $3,000 sticker packages. And its not like GM doesn't continually update their other vehicles through out the generation

I don't want Camaro to go away. Competition makes everyone better. It just makes me sad that I can't even consider a Camaro when my lease is up.

I read an article on the demise of the viper the other day actually. Lower trims was one of the things the article mentioned might have saved it since the Z06/Z07 was breathing right down its neck for considerably less.

As far as practicality its been beat to death but in my case for me it would be just enough more. It's more the trunk/opening and space for me and now especially with a kid in a car seat that little bit of extra trunk space can go a long way

I mean, if you decided to buy the car then some of the issues are obviously not a deal breaker for you.

As for the whole marketing thing, Ford can likely make more money that way but yeah, it's not a model I can personally agree with. I can agree with the point that it doesn't take way from the car being good, and whether or not it sells? Not a problem for me. I don't work for GM.

Viper got screwed because no automatic transmission and it appealed way too much to enthusiasts. Miata is probably the car with the highest take rate for manual trans right now and even then it's about 50% or so, so if Viper had an automatic option, the sales could have at least doubled.

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[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Glad you are entertained. Are you sure you don't drive a kick azz stang? Easy to think that when you are usually going on about how Camaro and GM/Chevy are sooooo far behind Frod and their great engines. Go fund me offer still stands if you change your mind.

While I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for the best all around pony car in production, you could stand to drink a little less Kool-Aid. Bhobbs is right, the Camaro could be much better with more attractive engine packages and it should be. Why is that a bad thing?

The engine line-up in the Camaro is boring to A LOT of sports car guys and girls. Not everyone wants a truck engine in their sports car, even if it is mounted in the best chassis available.

GM is making the right decisions on the C8, hopefully there is a Gen 7 Camaro and it can get some of the more exciting, high revving engines from the C8.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

While I very much appreciate your enthusiasm for the best all around pony car in production, you could stand to drink a little less Kool-Aid. Bhobbs is right, the Camaro could be much better with more attractive engine packages and it should be. Why is that a bad thing?

The engine line-up in the Camaro is boring to A LOT of sports car guys and girls. Not everyone wants a truck engine in their sports car, even if it is mounted in the best chassis available.

GM is making the right decisions on the C8, hopefully there is a Gen 7 Camaro and it can get some of the more exciting, high revving engines from the C8.

Well, you obviously see this differently than I do. Concerning right or wrong GM doesn't design and produce cars like Frod which has been explained previously. The individual in question just likes to whine about GM/Chevy and it gets old so I will speak up. I agree with Blaq here and if I wanted a do it yourself "kit car" I'd buy a Factory Five kit. Been there done that with Frod and have all the gift shop paraphernalia.

Having owned a few Mustangs (~6) over the years. Everything from mild daily drivers, a very early 351W Fox swap before aftermarket swap kits were available and had to make my own headers, to a 408 stroker track/streetcar with MM front and rear suspension kits and finally an NHRA comp car with 2 x Paxton with a stand alone ecu when most were still trying to figure out a single SC EEC-IV setup. So I believe I am better versed than most to make and push the Kool-Aid when it comes to well conceived and executed Sports Cars. If you don't like my "enthusiasm" you can always block me, I would understand.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The engine line-up in the Camaro is boring to A LOT of sports car guys and girls. Not everyone wants a truck engine in their sports car, even if it is mounted in the best chassis available.



GM is making the right decisions on the C8, hopefully there is a Gen 7 Camaro and it can get some of the more exciting, high revving engines from the C8.

The said "truck engine" works well though. In fact, that's what sold me the car. It's got a more authentic American feel to it than a DOHC V8 which you can get from Japanese and European auto makes.

Objectively, some of OHV's characteristics are actually favourable for sports cars. Lower centre of gravity, compact packaging, good low-end torque are a few I can think of.

High-revving NA engines are fun, but inevitably you will sacrifice low-end torque with it and in daily driving, low-end torque is king. That's why turbocharged family cars are growing.

And heh, Dodge uses a pushrod V8 in the Challenger and gets away with it so I don't think that's what's causing the problem. Also, I don't see people judging Corvettes for having the same truck engine as the Camaro. GM and FCA are the only two makes that still use pushrods and that makes the pushrod V8 all that interesting.

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[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The said "truck engine" works well though. In fact, that's what sold me the car. It's got a more authentic American feel to it than a DOHC V8 which you can get from Japanese and European auto makes.

Objectively, some of OHV's characteristics are actually favourable for sports cars. Lower centre of gravity, compact packaging, good low-end torque are a few I can think of.

High-revving NA engines are fun, but inevitably you will sacrifice low-end torque with it and in daily driving, low-end torque is king. That's why turbocharged family cars are growing.

And heh, Dodge uses a pushrod V8 in the Challenger and gets away with it so I don't think that's what's causing the problem. Also, I don't see people judging Corvettes for having the same truck engine as the Camaro. GM and FCA are the only two makes that still use pushrods and that makes the pushrod V8 all that interesting.

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Don't forget about Godzilla.