Running too rich after tune?

Davis1LE · 01-28-2019, 08:07 PM

Hey everyone,

So I recently got my car dyno tuned and I was kind of disappointed. My car made 433 whp and 451 torque so I posted it on Facebook to get some opinions on why I ran such low numbers. I was repeatedly told my car was running too rich. I went back and talked to my tuner and he said he tried to go the lean route but my car would pull timing, as much as 6 degrees. I'm currently unsure of what to do and I was told running rich on these DI motors are not safe, it is safer to run lean. What are your opinions?

My mods are:
TSP headers 1-7/8 inch
Rotofab Intake (dry filter)
Mishimoto catch can
Flex Fuel Sensor (at the time of tune I had 58% ethanol)

JeromeS13 · 01-28-2019, 10:48 PM

First, you can only call them "low" if you have a baseline from YOUR car on the same dyno. All dyno reads will vary, and your gains should be all relative to YOUR baseline dyno. Otherwise, you can NOT compare this dyno to that dyno. If your tuner is experienced with DI engines, then I wouldn't worry.

Does the car fell more powerful to your butt dyno? If so, don't worry about what every other FB/keyboard warrior says. Most have no idea what they're talking about.

Davis1LE · 01-29-2019, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeromeS13

First, you can only call them "low" if you have a baseline from YOUR car on the same dyno. All dyno reads will vary, and your gains should be all relative to YOUR baseline dyno. Otherwise, you can NOT compare this dyno to that dyno. If your tuner is experienced with DI engines, then I wouldn't worry.

Does the car fell more powerful to your butt dyno? If so, don't worry about what every other FB/keyboard warrior says. Most have no idea what they're talking about.

Other LT1 cars made 440 whp on his dyno on pump gas. A C7 with just headers. No intake or flex fuel made 440 something on his dyno, which worries me because I have a rotofab and also 58% ethanol at the time and I made a lot less.

BlueCamaro6 · 01-30-2019, 03:12 AM

That's a 12afr-11.8afr which is way rich for a stock LT1. I posted on your fb question and you need it tuned again at the correct afr. I'm 9psi at 12-12.2afr and zero knock retard.

If you're local to Chicago, I can get you dialed in no problem. I can also remote login if your tuner is having issues. Put the timing back in that they took out, lean it out, and watch the knock go away......

Whocares05050 · 01-30-2019, 07:52 AM

AFR is only 1 of a dozen things.... and will not tell you the whole story nor change HP much in the big picture. Find a better tuner.

G2K · 01-30-2019, 08:45 AM

Sorry to say, but you need a new tuner if he just gave up on correcting fuel mixture...

Also you have a 1LE, people don't take into consideration that we have ZL1 in tank fuel pumps....

When I tuned... Pray also had the same issue, but he figured it out with my car on a dyno and remotely tuned. That was about 2 years ago which im probably sure i was 1 of the first 1LE's he had tuned but he never quit till the car was right.

Its that simple.

That being said, a baseline is very important... because gains will tell you better if you are on par with the avg hp gains... the peak HP is just a number based on dyno calibrations... but looking at your graph you are leaving at least 15hp on the table.

wnta1ss · 01-31-2019, 06:25 AM

As previously mentioned, the numbers themselves mean nothing unless you have the baseline numbers from the same dyno.

That said, something looks wrong with your tune. The big drop off after 5600rpm is very strange, it should pull to a higher rpm than that, and then have a gentle fall off. The AFR shown on the sheet, if it's based on lambda like usual for an oxygen sensor, also looks rich for a normally-aspirated LT1. Looks around .78, and somwhere around .86 to .88 is probably better for this engine. The AFR is fairly steady so there are other problems besides this going on here (not a rich spot corresponding to the strange dip in power).

Davis1LE · 01-31-2019, 07:02 AM

The AFR is 11.31 at 433 whp. I’m thinking of going to vengeance racing, Pray porting or lsxperts. Just don’t know who yet and waiting for their responses. Just sucks that I pretty much wasted a lot of money trusting the guy.

asrautox · 01-31-2019, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis1LE

I went back and talked to my tuner and he said he tried to go the lean route but my car would pull timing, as much as 6 degrees. I'm currently unsure of what to do and I was told running rich on these DI motors are not safe, it is safer to run lean. What are your opinions?

My mods are:
TSP headers 1-7/8 inch
Rotofab Intake (dry filter)
Mishimoto catch can
Flex Fuel Sensor (at the time of tune I had 58% ethanol)

This is a sure sign it's false knock. If you have access to the tune, you can go back and do three things:

- Turn off COT Protection (if you don't have cats)
- Increase knock sensor sensitivity threshold (mine are at 5)
- Lean your PE AFR's (target 12.8-13 for gas, 8.5 for E85)

Otherwise, find a new tuner who can do this for you...

KingLT1 · 01-31-2019, 11:35 AM

RPM just did a experiment with a NA Corvette. Fran did 3 pulls back to back. One @ 12.8 afr, 11.5 afr, and 13.5 afr. Guess what, they were all within 5whp of each other on a 400-430whp car. The AFR isn't costing you power but the timing is. The LT1 knock sensor sensitivity is way too sensitive because GM set the engines up with the ability to run on 87. So that combined with high compression is why they pull timing very easy. You need to find a competent tuner that knows how to tune these DI engines correctly.

JANNETTYRACING · 02-11-2019, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis1LE

Hey everyone,

So I recently got my car dyno tuned and I was kind of disappointed. My car made 433 whp and 451 torque so I posted it on Facebook to get some opinions on why I ran such low numbers. I was repeatedly told my car was running too rich. I went back and talked to my tuner and he said he tried to go the lean route but my car would pull timing, as much as 6 degrees. I'm currently unsure of what to do and I was told running rich on these DI motors are not safe, it is safer to run lean. What are your opinions?

My mods are:
TSP headers 1-7/8 inch
Rotofab Intake (dry filter)
Mishimoto catch can
Flex Fuel Sensor (at the time of tune I had 58% ethanol)

It is definitely rich but not going to hurt your numbers much we set them to .86 lambda so you can do 2 mile runs without issue.

Should be around 460 RWHP on E58 but dynos vary so you must first find out what stock camaros show on this dyno so you know the real gains.

Ted.

Umbriel · 02-11-2019, 11:28 AM

Don't know my AFR but my dyno numbers are almost identical to yours with the same mods and the tune was done by a very reputable tuner in my city. Go to the track and see what it runs and forget about dyno numbers.

KILLA BEE · 11-09-2019, 09:39 AM

Damn every good tuner on Md claims 430-440 tops with these mods. You all have high #s okay not every lol but the two GOOD ONES I've used. I think one was an inground older mustang dyno and one a newer mustang dynojet

01-28-2019, 08:07 PM	#1
Davis1LE Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: May 2018 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11	Running too rich after tune? Hey everyone, So I recently got my car dyno tuned and I was kind of disappointed. My car made 433 whp and 451 torque so I posted it on Facebook to get some opinions on why I ran such low numbers. I was repeatedly told my car was running too rich. I went back and talked to my tuner and he said he tried to go the lean route but my car would pull timing, as much as 6 degrees. I'm currently unsure of what to do and I was told running rich on these DI motors are not safe, it is safer to run lean. What are your opinions? My mods are: TSP headers 1-7/8 inch Rotofab Intake (dry filter) Mishimoto catch can Flex Fuel Sensor (at the time of tune I had 58% ethanol) Attached Images

01-30-2019, 03:12 AM	#4
BlueCamaro6 Drives: 2018 Camaro 2SS, Hyper Blue Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Next Level Tuning - Chicago Posts: 186	That's a 12afr-11.8afr which is way rich for a stock LT1. I posted on your fb question and you need it tuned again at the correct afr. I'm 9psi at 12-12.2afr and zero knock retard. If you're local to Chicago, I can get you dialed in no problem. I can also remote login if your tuner is having issues. Put the timing back in that they took out, lean it out, and watch the knock go away...... __________________ 2018 2SS, A8, NAV, NPP, MRC, Sunroof, Hyperblue, LT4 S/C, LT4 Fuel System, RotoFab CAI, Headers, HiFlo Cats 2016 2SS, A8, NAV, NPP, MRC, Sunroof, Hyperblue (GM buyback) 1999 Trans Am Firehawk, M6, headers, no-cats, slp exhaust, hot cam, intake, 3:73 gears. Red/Blk

01-30-2019, 08:45 AM	#6
G2K @Blackmamba_1LE Drives: 2017 1LE Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: South Florida Posts: 740	Sorry to say, but you need a new tuner if he just gave up on correcting fuel mixture... Also you have a 1LE, people don't take into consideration that we have ZL1 in tank fuel pumps.... When I tuned... Pray also had the same issue, but he figured it out with my car on a dyno and remotely tuned. That was about 2 years ago which im probably sure i was 1 of the first 1LE's he had tuned but he never quit till the car was right. Its that simple. That being said, a baseline is very important... because gains will tell you better if you are on par with the avg hp gains... the peak HP is just a number based on dyno calibrations... but looking at your graph you are leaving at least 15hp on the table. __________________ OG: Pray Perf FBO ET:11.5 @119 THEN:LT4 SC, E85 + Meth :10.6 @135 NOW: H/C Whipple 416ci

01-31-2019, 11:35 AM	#10
KingLT1 Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: 46804 Posts: 6,796	RPM just did a experiment with a NA Corvette. Fran did 3 pulls back to back. One @ 12.8 afr, 11.5 afr, and 13.5 afr. Guess what, they were all within 5whp of each other on a 400-430whp car. The AFR isn't costing you power but the timing is. The LT1 knock sensor sensitivity is way too sensitive because GM set the engines up with the ability to run on 87. So that combined with high compression is why they pull timing very easy. You need to find a competent tuner that knows how to tune these DI engines correctly. __________________ 2016 NFG 1SS A8 Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA

11-09-2019, 09:39 AM	#13
KILLA BEE Black lightning Drives: 2021 ZL1 1LE A10 Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Nottingham Md Posts: 1,997 View My Garage	Damn every good tuner on Md claims 430-440 tops with these mods. You all have high #s okay not every lol but the two GOOD ONES I've used. I think one was an inground older mustang dyno and one a newer mustang dynojet __________________ [ 2021 Camaro ZLE 10 speed

01-28-2019, 10:48 PM	#2
JeromeS13 Drives: 2017 1SS/1LE Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: FL Panhandle Posts: 1,559	First, you can only call them "low" if you have a baseline from YOUR car on the same dyno. All dyno reads will vary, and your gains should be all relative to YOUR baseline dyno. Otherwise, you can NOT compare this dyno to that dyno. If your tuner is experienced with DI engines, then I wouldn't worry. Does the car fell more powerful to your butt dyno? If so, don't worry about what every other FB/keyboard warrior says. Most have no idea what they're talking about.

01-30-2019, 07:52 AM	#5
Whocares05050 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Treasure Coast, FL Posts: 384	AFR is only 1 of a dozen things.... and will not tell you the whole story nor change HP much in the big picture. Find a better tuner.

01-31-2019, 06:25 AM	#7
wnta1ss Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: NH Posts: 1,692	As previously mentioned, the numbers themselves mean nothing unless you have the baseline numbers from the same dyno. That said, something looks wrong with your tune. The big drop off after 5600rpm is very strange, it should pull to a higher rpm than that, and then have a gentle fall off. The AFR shown on the sheet, if it's based on lambda like usual for an oxygen sensor, also looks rich for a normally-aspirated LT1. Looks around .78, and somwhere around .86 to .88 is probably better for this engine. The AFR is fairly steady so there are other problems besides this going on here (not a rich spot corresponding to the strange dip in power).

01-31-2019, 07:02 AM	#8
Davis1LE Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: May 2018 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11	The AFR is 11.31 at 433 whp. I’m thinking of going to vengeance racing, Pray porting or lsxperts. Just don’t know who yet and waiting for their responses. Just sucks that I pretty much wasted a lot of money trusting the guy.

02-11-2019, 11:28 AM	#12
Umbriel Drives: 2016 Camaro SS Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Bartlett, TN Posts: 1,121	Don't know my AFR but my dyno numbers are almost identical to yours with the same mods and the tune was done by a very reputable tuner in my city. Go to the track and see what it runs and forget about dyno numbers.

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