Homepage Garage Wiki Register Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > V8 LT1 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons


Bigwormgraphix


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2019, 03:26 PM   #1
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Throttle Response, Beyond Porting

There is a much debated problem w/ the throttle response of the LT1/LT4 engines, manual or auto, the issue has been described in this and other forums (Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V, Trucks, SUVís), just to mention a few descriptions:

- Throttle Lag
- Delayed response
- Car feeling heavy or not nimble
- Difficulty climbing hills at low/moderate throttle
- Uncertainty when passing other cars or unpredictable response at low/moderate throttle
- Stumble when shifting on manual transmissions

You name it, this has been my issue w/ my Corvette 7 since test driving at the dealership. I've tried a Throttle controller, AFM disabler, ECM Tuning, and arguably the three most talked about ported throttle bodies (PTB) out there. I have also combined some of the above w/ some success but still not enough. One just needs to hop into almost any other comparable car to feel they respond better.

After spending so much time/money, I decided to take it upon myself to find out, I also have all the equipment needed at work (measuring, testing, simulating, machining etc.)

Long story short; it is the throttle body. Between idle (~5 degree throttle) to ~30 deg throttle angle the amount of mass air flow (which is proportional to power) puts our cars at a weigh to power ratio similar to that of trucks and SUVís, both in terms of absolute value and rate of change. Not to be confused w/ the weight to power ratio that is usually published, which is calculated at WOT, above 35 deg throttle angle our engines shine. It is on the part throttle range (idle to 30 deg) that the issue exists.

Iím not going to speculate on the reasons, but I can tell you that our throttle body p/n 12678223 or 12620263 is used in many GM vehicles and that such throttle response helps w/ fuel economy. That helps to keep parts cost low and meet EPA requirements for the fleet. However, I do not think one size fits all and that a high performance car needs to sacrifice performance for economy.

The throttle controller and the tune improve response by making the throttle plate move faster between the 5-30 deg range. Faster, but it still needs to go through a tortuous path for the air flow, and the manifold pressure doesnít recover as fast. It is a transient process, and it is from the intake manifold where the pistons suck the air from. Notice that this is not true throttle response, it is just tricking the ECM into thinking you have pushed the accelerator pedal harder. The actual throttle response is the same, only physical changes to the throttle can make for a true throttle response.

The existing aftermarket ported throttle bodies also helped, they do change the throttle physically, but their effect only starts to take place at about 25 deg in what I thought was the best one of them. Definitely a step in the right direction, but I noticed they were not optimized and that more could be extracted from them, that is a throttle body that can increase the absolute value and rate of change of mass air flow right from idle and up to 35 degrees to achieve the same weight to power ratio (in that range) of similar high performance cars that feel nimble and fun to drive at part throttle.

Another long story short, I reversed engineered 10ea OEM throttle bodies, 3ea aftermarket ported throttle bodies, and a benchmark (competing car maker model) OEM throttle body. Optimized/modified the OEM throttle body to meet the benchmark throttle response as well as the goal stated above.

Our modified throttle bodies (MTB) are made (CNC machined) from a brand new OEM throttle body, flow and engine tested. Our design has been fully vetted by Corvette 7, Camaro 6, CTS-V owners, fully and openly tested by Corvette Forum members mainly. Driven in different conditions/modes for a few thousands of miles now at extreme temperatures and altitudes.

See pics below for more insight into what Iím talking aboutÖand most importantly what do you think? All comments welcome.
Please visit us at : SolerEngineering.com

Thanks,
Attached Images
           
__________________

Last edited by Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC; 03-27-2020 at 04:01 PM. Reason: added flow test data
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 03:41 PM   #2
DenverTaco07


 
DenverTaco07's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2017 Volt, 2013 Pilot
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,274
very cool, I'm impressed, but i'm not an engineer so that's probably not saying much.

I assume no tune required?
__________________
2017 SS 1LE | HBM | Vortech V3-Si supercharger (620RWHP and 575ft lbs) | PDR | Black Bowties | Illuminated Front Black Bowtie | Illuminated Door Sills | Smoked Tails | vented seats mod
DenverTaco07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 04:01 PM   #3
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Thanks, DenverTaco07. Correct, no tune required. Installation instructions attached for a Corvette 7. Very similar for a Camaro 6.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Installation Instructions Rev NEW.pdf (767.6 KB, 561 views)
__________________
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 04:28 PM   #4
z28pat
 
z28pat's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 z28, 2018 2ss 1LE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Parrish, Florida
Posts: 692
Does the throttle response issue have anything to do with this being a throttle by wire setup instead of a physical connection between pedal and throttle body?
And also ,
Would this void the warranty ?

Last edited by z28pat; 06-17-2019 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Sp
z28pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 04:30 PM   #5
biker2k
 
biker2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 2ss 1le
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Huntington, NY
Posts: 449
id love to hear real world dyno results

and not for nothing
this is how you do a product launch not like some unnamed cold air intakes!
__________________
2018 2ss 1le roto fab dry, Stainless works 1 7/8 lt to 3'" x pipe with highflow cats to stock npp, 95mm t/b, edelbrock 2300, LT4 fueling , jms bap , 583/580 rwhp
biker2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 04:33 PM   #6
cellsafemode


 
cellsafemode's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Camaro 1LT
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: California
Posts: 3,314
warranty voiding technically can only occur on products/modifications that can be proven to be the cause of the warranty work needed.

However, dealers and even OEM's will fight you and say the warranty is voided even though legally they aren't allowed to. You'll then have to pay for a lawyer to fight them.

So the short answer is always, if you care about the warranty being voided, dont do it. Stick to stock. Or you know, just stop caring about the warranty and do what you want.
cellsafemode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 04:41 PM   #7
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by z28pat View Post
Does the throttle response issue have anything to do with this being a throttle by wire setup instead of a physical connection between pedal and throttle body?
And also ,
Would this void the warranty ?
It is a compounded problem, mechanical, electrical/control, we took care of the mechanical part of it, which is the most influential one and rules over the electronic control.

Voiding the warranty is easily and completely under your control. It is widely considered a non-warranty buster Mod for that reason.
__________________
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:02 PM   #8
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by biker2k View Post
id love to hear real world dyno results

and not for nothing
this is how you do a product launch not like some unnamed cold air intakes!
Coming soon, biker2k. That is at WOT. At part throttle, where we spend 99% of our driving time, we have plenty of data, some of it posted above.

At WOT, you know how inaccurate chassis dynos can be, but we'll run back to back dynos and see what we get.

Some numbers we could give right now is that your effective bore diameter goes from 87 mm (stock) to 91 mm (with mod). Our inlet/outlet design make flow much more efficient, polished to reduce skin friction, even the screws are completely out of the way. All these will show up at WOT we expect an easy 10-20+ HP gain.

Some Corvettes have taken our TB's to the track, and just the smoothness and predictability makes them track worthy.

Thanks,
__________________
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:17 PM   #9
Umbriel

 
Drives: 2016 Camaro SS
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 985
What about on a cammed Procharged car? Would it be worth the switch since the Procharger is cramming air into the motor?
Umbriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:32 PM   #10
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbriel View Post
What about on a cammed Procharged car? Would it be worth the switch since the Procharger is cramming air into the motor?
You have a lot to win and nothing to lose by trying. In your case, it is more of a guesswork and patience game. Given your setup, we'll start you with an LT4 TB, if it doesn't work we'll take it down a notch and send you another one, and so on up to 4 configurations you can try with all shipping both ways paid by us, until we hit the maximum airflow your current setup is happy with. Most cases like yours end up working the 1st time, a few the 2nd time, and very rarely the 3rd time. All our heavily Mod customers have ended up pleased when they hang on to this plan.

We could certainly send one configuration that will work the 1st time and that still outperforms the competition, but that wouldn't be optimum for your setup and that is not our promise, but could consider if you don't feel like installing a couple of times.

Update: Just looked at our records, we have 4 Procharger and 3 A&A (very similar blower) customers. All Corvettes 7's (LT1) So, we have a pretty good idea of what will work for you.
__________________

Last edited by Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC; 06-17-2019 at 05:52 PM.
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 05:39 PM   #11
Mountain

 
Mountain's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2016 1SS (previous)
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC View Post
There is a much debated problem w/ the throttle response of the LT1/LT4 engines, manual or auto, the issue has been described in this and other forums (Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V, Trucks, SUV’s), just to mention a few descriptions:

- Throttle Lag
- Delayed response
- Car feeling heavy or not nimble
- Difficulty climbing hills at low/moderate throttle
- Uncertainty when passing other cars or unpredictable response at low/moderate throttle
- Stumble when shifting on manual transmissions

You name it, this has been my issue w/ my Corvette 7 since test driving at the dealership. I've tried a Throttle controller, AFM disabler, ECM Tuning, and arguably the three most talked about ported throttle bodies (PTB) out there. I have also combined some of the above w/ some success but still not enough. One just needs to hop into almost any other comparable car to feel they respond better.

After spending so much time/money, I decided to take it upon myself to find out, I also have all the equipment needed at work (measuring, testing, simulating, machining etc.)

Long story short; it is the throttle body. Between idle (~5 degree throttle) to ~30 deg throttle angle the amount of mass air flow (which is proportional to power) puts our cars at a weigh to power ratio similar to that of trucks and SUV’s, both in terms of absolute value and rate of change. Not to be confused w/ the weight to power ratio that is usually published, which is calculated at WOT, above 35 deg throttle angle our engines shine. It is on the part throttle range (idle to 30 deg) that the issue exists.

I’m not going to speculate on the reasons, but I can tell you that our throttle body p/n 12678223 or 12620263 is used in many GM vehicles and that such throttle response helps w/ fuel economy. That helps to keep parts cost low and meet EPA requirements for the fleet. However, I do not think one size fits all and that a high performance car needs to sacrifice performance for economy...

...The existing aftermarket ported throttle bodies also helped, they do change the throttle physically, but their effect only starts to take place at about 25 deg in what I thought was the best one of them. Definitely a step in the right direction, but I noticed they were not optimized and that more could be extracted from them, that is a throttle body that can increase the absolute value and rate of change of mass air flow right from idle and up to 35 degrees to achieve the same weight to power ratio (in that range) of similar high performance cars that feel nimble and fun to drive at part throttle...


...Our modified throttle bodies (MTB) are made (CNC machined) from a brand new OEM throttle body, flow and engine tested. Our design has been fully vetted by Corvette 7, Camaro 6, CTS-V owners, fully and openly tested by Corvette Forum members mainly. Driven in different conditions/modes for a few thousands of miles now at extreme temperatures and altitudes.

See pics below for more insight into what I’m talking about…and most importantly what do you think? All comments welcome.
Please visit us at : SolerEngineering.com

Thanks,
This is something I believe Tony Mamo touched on before, and where you need to be very careful how you "port" the area very near the throttle blade first few degrees because you can get the ECM to throw a code.

One thing I want to point out/comment: about the ported throttle bodies out there and not starting to do anything until about 25-degrees - Are your comments in respect to the theoretical 0-degree point (fully vertical; like your example sketch/drawing) of the throttle blade or in respect to their true, as-built rest position (which is NOT completely vertical)? Reason being as this is important to keep in mind with what you have posted and the work you have done.

P.S. - Appreciate the write up and the work you and your company did.
Mountain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 06:00 PM   #12
HDRDTD


 
Drives: 2013 Triple Black ZL1 Vert M6 ECF
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Trenton, Michigan
Posts: 6,675
Do you make one for a 5th gen ZL1 with a LSA engine?
HDRDTD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 06:07 PM   #13
Umbriel

 
Drives: 2016 Camaro SS
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC View Post
You have a lot to win and nothing to lose by trying. In your case, it is more of a guesswork and patience game. Given your setup, we'll start you with an LT4 TB, if it doesn't work we'll take it down a notch and send you another one, and so on up to 4 configurations you can try with all shipping both ways paid by us, until we hit the maximum airflow your current setup is happy with. Most cases like yours end up working the 1st time, a few the 2nd time, and very rarely the 3rd time. All our heavily Mod customers have ended up pleased when they hang on to this plan.

We could certainly send one configuration that will work the 1st time and that still outperforms the competition, but that wouldn't be optimum for your setup and that is not our promise, but could consider if you don't feel like installing a couple of times.

Update: Just looked at our records, we have 4 Procharger and 3 A&A (very similar blower) customers. All Corvettes 7's (LT1) So, we have a pretty good idea of what will work for you.
Ok cool. I'm having my Procharger put on in a couple of weeks and I'll get in touch with you about it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Umbriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2019, 06:10 PM   #14
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC

 
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 Corvette Stingray
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Alabama
Posts: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
This is something I believe Tony Mamo touched on before, and where you need to be very careful how you "port" the area very near the throttle blade first few degrees because you can get the ECM to throw a code.

One thing I want to point out/comment: about the ported throttle bodies out there and not starting to do anything until about 25-degrees - Are your comments in respect to the theoretical 0-degree point (fully vertical; like your example sketch/drawing) of the throttle blade or in respect to their true, as-built rest position (which is NOT completely vertical)? Reason being as this is important to keep in mind with what you have posted and the work you have done.

P.S. - Appreciate the write up and the work you and your company did.
Thank you, Mountain. You are absolutely correct and careful we are. This is the area that really makes the difference in response out of a stop, right off idle. Very sensitive dimensionally, uncontrollable by hand porting. We think this is one of the features that sets us apart, our ability to carefully work this area w/o upsetting the ECM.

Minimum flow does not occur at the physical zero degrees (vertical). It happens at about 1-2 degrees (This is the "zero" for results plotted).
__________________
Mike@SolerPerformanceLLC is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.