07-16-2018, 04:53 PM | #43 |
Drives: 2013 ZL1 Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Illinois
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Now Dodge is also giving the Scat Pak some hand me downs from Hellcat, in the form of the 2015-18 hood and also getting the widebody option.
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07-16-2018, 05:31 PM | #44 | |
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Drives: Camaro V6 Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: U.S.
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Quote:
A brand new platform would not have been required to keep the 4th gen F-body soldiering on for another 7-8 years. However, I think the damage was already done way back in the Rodger Smith era with the failed GM-10 program. Lack of new product development and stagnation of the 3rd gen F-body among other platform lines under his watch set the stage for what ultimately became GM's downfall in the early '00's. Utilizing Zeta for the 5th gen was eventually chosen due the fatcors you have mentioned, but it was really too heavy for a model like the Camaro. However, since its primary competitors including the Mustang bulked up during this transition, the effect was not that noticeable. The Alpha platform was a natural choice for the 6th gen since it offered both the cost sharing attributes with Cadillac and the weight reduction goals the engineers were looking for. However, rear seat legroom and trunk space was severly reduced making a somewhat impractical car even more impractical. I don't know if you remember or can offer more insight on this, but I do remember a discussion regarding the placement of the rear bulkhead behind the seats. It seems the Alpha platform has a basic design problem in which the rear bulkhead structure is located too far forward in the chassis. This apparently caused a drastic reduction in rear seat leg room compared to the Zeta based 5th gen. |
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07-16-2018, 06:14 PM | #45 | |
Retired from GM
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
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Quote:
Ford was obviously in a different place with the Fox architecture. Could be that the work needed to make it comply required fewer man-hours and dollars than requirements to get F-body to comply. Could be Ford had the dollars and man-hours to spare. I would certainly agree that GM10 did a lot to set the company back. There was a heavy reliance on launching with coupe versions of the nameplates on GM10, even though the industry forecasts were already signaling a shift to sedans. By the time the sedans caught up, SUVs were becoming a thing. Technically speaking, Alpha was a natural. Politically, financially, and brand strategy wise, not so much. A lot of debate and study until it finally came to pass. Not sure about the bulkhead issue. Wouldn’t surprise me. Mass and rigidity were the main triggers for Alpha development. If placement of the bulkhead helped to improve either of those elements, then I would not be surprised at the trade offs.
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2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | |
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07-17-2018, 10:08 AM | #46 | |
Drives: 2022 F150, 87 Monte Carlo Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: MN
Posts: 1,267
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Quote:
Oh, it won a month or two. Yep. The double standards are ridiculous |
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07-18-2018, 12:02 PM | #47 | |
Drives: 2019 Mustang GT / CS Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 5
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07-18-2018, 12:22 PM | #48 | |
Drives: 16 Camaro SS, 15 Colorado Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jefferson City, Missouri
Posts: 13,943
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I'm no expert like Martin and his great insight. But I do know of some things on this one: 1) The car was never going to continue on forever due to Holden shutting down. 2) The car was never meant to sell in large numbers and was more of an opportunity for GM to sell more of those imported units here in the U.S. where it then lacked a sports sedan due to the death of Pontiac 3) The car was never really advertised, and it only came fully loaded (again, going back to point 2 above) The SS didn't sell great...no it didn't, but it was never really meant to either. P.S. A part of me wishes I had accepted the "fancy Malibu" looks and slight performance hit compared to my Camaro SS and picked one up during the 20% off sales on the SS. They are worth that much or more today.
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2016 Camaro 1SS - 8-speed - NPP - Black bowties
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07-18-2018, 02:18 PM | #49 |
Drives: 23 LT1/22 Colorado TB/69 Chevelle Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 4,970
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I'm a long time GM guy and I currently own a 2016 Challenger R/T Plus. I just bought it 8 weeks ago. It's my first non-GM vehicle in 23 years.
I had been itching to get back into a modern muscle car for a daily driver and I wanted to go used instead of new just to save money. My must haves were V8 and leather. I had originally been dead set on another Camaro 2SS. I had not even considered anything else because I've been die-hard GM for most of my driving life. But, my wife(who currently daily drives a 2016 Camaro) has always liked the Challenger so I decided to check them out. Mustang was never a consideration. I came across this car and decided to pull the trigger. I've been impressed with the car overall so far. The 8 speed in the Challenger is better than any Camaro 8 speed I've ever driven. Dodge has that trans perfected. I'm surprised that the OP didn't like the transmission in the rental unit. Perhaps they tune the 8 speed differently in the rental cars. I like the room inside too. I know a lot of people bag on the Challenger for its size but I actually like that about it. I'm a big guy at 6'5" and the extra room is great for me. It has a usable backseat which is nice when I need it. It has its faults though. Performance of the 5.7 R/T isn't anywhere close to the SS though. I love the way it rides and drives but when it comes to all out performance, it feels slow because it is. If I could go back and change one thing, I would buy a Scat Pack over the 5.7 R/T. It also didn't come with remote start. It has heated/vented seats, navigation, sunroof, Harmon Kardon sound system and damn near everything else but for some reason, it didn't come with factory remote start. It has more rattles than any Camaro I've driven since my 1987 IROC. If you ever want to feel good about the blind spots and visibility out of a Camaro, go drive a Challenger. The blind spots in the Challenger might be the worst I've ever experienced. Even with all of that, I do like the car as a daily driver. It had everything I wanted and it was cheap. I paid $21,500 for this car which was several thousand dollars less than a comparable 2016 2SS. Will I buy another one? Possibly. The things I like about this car outweigh my dislikes. |
07-18-2018, 05:49 PM | #50 |
Drives: 2000 Trans Am M6 Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Dublin, CA
Posts: 134
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Funny you say that because today the Camaro6 homepage has an article saying Camaro topped Challenger and Mustang sales. Maybe the tide's a'turnin
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07-18-2018, 07:23 PM | #51 |
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Drives: 2013 2SS/RS Convertible Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 3,873
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I’ve driven three challengers:
V-6 auto 5.7L V-8 auto 6.4L V-8 auto Wasn’t really impressed by any of them. As my car sits, if felt faster than the 392 and would run circles around it in the mountains. I did like the extra back seat space though. Shame they never did a convertible. I’ve also driven V-6 & 5.7L V-8 police cars and OMG did they suck!!! Terrible interior space once you put the cage & equipment in and the transmissions blow yearly. It KILLS me to say I prefer the Taurus. |
07-19-2018, 11:47 AM | #52 |
Drives: 23 LT1/22 Colorado TB/69 Chevelle Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 4,970
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