[chain777]

I was originally going to post this in the mega thread, but I didn't want it to get lost too fast in all the noise. It will probably end up there anyway, but hopefully we can discuss this with some level of maturity before it gets demoted to the mega thread:

Originally Posted by The_Blur

We are a Camaro community. That mega thread is the home of Mustang discussion. If people here want to discuss Camaros, they can use the whole site. If people want to post about Mustangs, they can do it in the proper place.

Well, the house is a mess. Isn't the "other cars" section the proper place? Why relegate the Mustang to one big useless thread in this section? I don't see any other cars treated that way. I've never been to a Mustang site where all the Camaro threads were dumped into one unreadable thread. They seem to deal with it there, I don't see why it can't be dealt with here as well. It feels like you don't want to acknowledge the Mustangs existence, so let's throw any mention of it in the trash can labeled "Mustang Mega thread".

Any meaningful comparison between the two cars is completely lost for anyone wanting any real information. I hope that's not the agenda here.

It's too bad we can't have any real conversation here without the fan-boy flamers (from both sides), bringing these threads to to a nut swinging contest. If I was a mod here, I'd concentrate on shutting down the flamers that bring nothing to a conversion other than to stir it up. It's not too hard to see who they are.

I hope this post isn't read as an insult to this site, or the mods. Constructive criticism, yes. There's a lot of good people here, but the noise level of the thread crappers is starting to drown out any meaningful conversation.

I know you guys make the rules, and I abide by them. But that doesn't mean I agree with all of them, and would at least hope you can try to see it from another point of view.




*this is *not* a Camaro vs. Mustang thread, so please consider posting to the mega thread if you want to say something like: "Mustang rules", "Camaro rules", "Ford sucks", "GM sucks", "Mustake, Mustank, Slomaro, "mullet head", 5.slow, etc.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by chain777

I was originally going to post this in the mega thread, but I didn't want it to get lost too fast in all the noise. It will probably end up there anyway, but hopefully we can discuss this with some level of maturity before it gets demoted to the mega thread:

Well, the house is a mess. Isn't the "other cars" section the proper place? Why relegate the Mustang to one big useless thread in this section? I don't see any other cars treated that way. I've never been to a Mustang site where all the Camaro threads were dumped into one unreadable thread. They seem to deal with it there, I don't see why it can't be dealt with here as well. It feels like you don't want to acknowledge the Mustangs existence, so let's throw any mention of it in the trash can labeled "Mustang Mega thread".

Any meaningful comparison between the two cars is completely lost for anyone wanting any real information. I hope that's not the agenda here.

It's too bad we can't have any real conversation here without the fan-boy flamers (from both sides), bringing these threads to to a nut swinging contest. If I was a mod here, I'd concentrate on shutting down the flamers that bring nothing to a conversion other than to stir it up. It's not too hard to see who they are.

I have to say that, all the 'hooray for my side' banter aside, I agree. Unfortunately I think that the mods, for the most part, really are trying to be even handed...I just think that the solution they came up with is wanting. Even worse, I think this solution actually encourages the bad manners they are trying to prevent.

My take is that, like every other community, C5 developed a small community of folks who are interested in every car but have a particular allegiance to a car not the focus of this forum. That means that, just like every other forum, C5 developed a group of regular posters who don't see the Camaro through the rosey-eyed glasses most folks here do.

In my experience this either adds to the interest of the forum or creates a problem largely depending upon how the mods handle the situation. Here at C5 I think we saw a bit of a conundrum where you could almost see the mods saying "the Camaro loyalist is actually being the jerk in this discussion, but how can we side with the 'opposition' being that this is a Camaro forum?" So, the guy with the bad manners often got a very obvious pass because of his allegiance. I think this unfortunately encouraged some bad behavior on the home teams part because they began to think they could get away with murder so to speak, and it likewise encouraged bad behavior on what might have been more level headed contributors with outside loyalties because of a perceived injustice.

Ultimately I think this all started because the wrong question was asked. Civil discussion and manners always have to come first in any language based venue or you will have a breakdown of order to some extent or another, trust me I assure you I know that at least as well as anybody here and most likely better due to a career choice I made. The first question should be "who is being the a-hole here", and you have to act based upon that because the whole point is civil discourse. Enforcing the same doesn't mean they aren't your buddy, it doesn't even mean that you don't agree with their point, it means you value order and understand that you cannot move forward with it. Of course the issue of whether somebody is trolling or not also has to come into the equation as well, but I don't think troll enforcement was really an issue here before the above problem created so many others so I don't have much to say there.

Ultimately I think things like the mega-thread seek to solve a problem by avoiding the problem that created this whole mess in the first place. You can't give somebody a pass on manners because they are on the same side as you, it just wont work and it always opens a can of worms you will eventually discover you don't want or need.

[rez333]

I agree. The Camaro's birth was thanks to the Mustang and the excellence of the Camaro is thanks to the Mustang. Similarly the Mustang's excellence is thanks to the Camaro. It's good to discuss these two cars with equal respect. I am buying a Shelby GT500 but I love the Camaro to be an excellent car because it makes the Mustang better too. Everyone wins.

Some people take these discussions too seriously. An opinion is an opinion - it's neither right nor wrong, and if people learn to think of "opinions" as a "preference" (for example: vanilla icecream vs chocolate), then we understand that there isn't anything superior between one opinion vs another.

[ViperTomcat]

I *know* the mods do the best job they can. We non-Camaro owners have to remember that this is a Camaro site, and by nature, the hammer will fall a bit more heavily on the non-Camaro owners/fans.

However I do think that there should be a bit more ..care taken on which threads get dumped into the "Mega Thread". How would I judge that? I dont know, I'm not a mod. I simply feel that the mods may be a bit too quick to lump something into the thread.
That being said, if the administrations/mods of Camaro5 dont want threads about other cars, arguments, etc..then delete the "other cars" section and Order 66 all other car threads. Its not fair to have the section where people are bound to argue about cars and then complain about "ugh..our patience is wearing thin!"..this is the section to do that in. I understand if that happens in general boards or such..but I would like to remind the people who whine and complain about that to notice when it is in the proper location.

[Keedy]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

Order 66

Damn. Thats the nerdiest thing I've read all year. Congratulations, you win the prize.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Wow, are you guys way off base.

First off, the other cars and Camaro vs. forums exists for Camaro enthusiasts to discuss other cars, either for or against. It's not an area for other car owners to live in and say whatever they want.

Second, you have to be either a rabid fanboy or a troll to take issue with Camaro enthusiasts preferring Camaros on a Camaro fansite. It can't be spelled out more clearly than that.

Third, the fact that you guys post here at all, with your histories, points out how extremely generous the mods are. Regardless of how you view your own conduct, most of you guys stir up crap with your posts. The mods made it pretty clear a long time ago they don't cotton to heated disagreements. The only reason some of you guys are still allowed to post here is because the mods are making a very heavy effort to include people who favor other cars. Personally I think it's a mistake (I think you guys turn away 10 times the number of Camaro enthusiasts as we're ever likely to gain in Ford, Challenger or other car enthusiasts), but it's their website to run so I won't gainsay it.

Most Camaro enthusiasts are banned/suspended long before they behave as bad as most of you guys.

[kevin2323]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Wow, are you guys way off base.

First off, the other cars and Camaro vs. forums exists for Camaro enthusiasts to discuss other cars, either for or against. It's not an area for other car owners to live in and say whatever they want.

Second, you have to be either a rabid fanboy or a troll to take issue with Camaro enthusiasts preferring Camaros on a Camaro fansite. It can't be spelled out more clearly than that.

Third, the fact that you guys post here at all, with your histories, points out how extremely generous the mods are. Regardless of how you view your own conduct, most of you guys stir up crap with your posts. The mods made it pretty clear a long time ago they don't cotton to heated disagreements. The only reason some of you guys are still allowed to post here is because the mods are making a very heavy effort to include people who favor other cars. Personally I think it's a mistake (I think you guys turn away 10 times the number of Camaro enthusiasts as we're ever likely to gain in Ford, Challenger or other car enthusiasts), but it's their website to run so I won't gainsay it.

Most Camaro enthusiasts are banned/suspended long before they behave as bad as most of you guys.

i couldnt disagree more. im glad they allow car guys and not just camaro guys post here. they know we respect all brands and just like to talk cars on a great site with great people. And we follow the rules by posting in the other car thread and genral car discussion area when speaking of cars other than the camaro. some people just dont want anything other than gm lovers posting period, which is fine but isnt the majority. ive made friends on here and hope to continue making friends.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Wow, are you guys way off base.

First off, the other cars and Camaro vs. forums exists for Camaro enthusiasts to discuss other cars, either for or against. It's not an area for other car owners to live in and say whatever they want.

Second, you have to be either a rabid fanboy or a troll to take issue with Camaro enthusiasts preferring Camaros on a Camaro fansite. It can't be spelled out more clearly than that.

Third, the fact that you guys post here at all, with your histories, points out how extremely generous the mods are. Regardless of how you view your own conduct, most of you guys stir up crap with your posts. The mods made it pretty clear a long time ago they don't cotton to heated disagreements. The only reason some of you guys are still allowed to post here is because the mods are making a very heavy effort to include people who favor other cars. Personally I think it's a mistake (I think you guys turn away 10 times the number of Camaro enthusiasts as we're ever likely to gain in Ford, Challenger or other car enthusiasts), but it's their website to run so I won't gainsay it.

Most Camaro enthusiasts are banned/suspended long before they behave as bad as most of you guys.

The only forums you can go to that don't have plenty of other vehicle owners are the least informed, most embarrassing car forums you will ever see. It's almost necessary to have owners of different vehicles that respect the rules and at least enjoy the vehicle that is the subject of the forum. If you had a site made up of pure Camaro drivers, you would have almost zero information about the competition and there are also quite a few posters with valuable input on Camaro tech and info that own other vehicles. If you go to the mustang forums, you will see tons of ls1 owners with 5,000+ posts. If you go to the chevy cobalt forums there are a multitude of various types of vehicle owners. As long as their input is respectful and they actually have an interest in the subject vehicle, it's very valuable. Without it, the forum would probably think the fastest 5.0s are going 13.0@109 and picks up 5hp max from bolt-ons. When you have a single-minded crowd you collect and accept extremely bias information as well as opinions.

This is a forum for discussion and more specifically, the other vehicles section. Let the people that know more about mustangs than you have their input, as you should with any other vehicle discussed. Hell, half the mustang owners used to own camaros or at least cross-shopped them. As you said yourself, why would you want information and opinions about the new mustang from a bunch of people that have never driven or probably even sat in one?

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by kevin2323

some people just dont want anything other than gm lovers posting period, which is fine but isnt the majority.

It's a Camaro fansite. What part of that do you guys not get?

And shouldn't it be the majority? Would you like going to a Challenger fansite and getting trolled for driving a Challenger, and told your car sucks? Would you like it if the majority of the posts were like that, and then I popped up over there and told you "Stop being such a whiner. All my friends are here"?

Lol, do you guys have no comprehensive abilities at all?

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

It's a Camaro fansite. What part of that do you guys not get?

And shouldn't it be the majority? Would you like going to a Challenger fansite and getting trolled for driving a Challenger, and told your car sucks? Would you like it if the majority of the posts were like that, and then I popped up over there and told you "Stop being such a whiner. All my friends are here"?

Lol, do you guys have no comprehensive abilities at all?

This is not a Camaro fan club. This is a discussion forum and we are even in the "Other Cars Discussion" sub-forum right now. If you were to have 100% Camaro owners in here and no other input, half of the information about any of your competition would either be gone or extremely skewed. Even discussion about the Camaro would be lacking. Hell, I think everyone that has posted so far in this thread either owned a Camaro or considered it at some point. Everyone you are talking to posts information and opinions with little bias and with very respectful communication with other posters. That's why we aren't all banned. What you want is skewed information and no referral to any advantages competition may have over the Camaro and that is what's referred to as a fanboy attitude. If the rules are followed, you should EXPECT and even invite other car owners here to discuss other vehicles and the Camaro. I see plenty of good discussions coming out of the people that have posted so far and very few problems. That doesn't mean there are no trolls here however unfortunate that may be. What's funny to me is that you complain about other posters causing problems, but you are the first person to make any kind of aggressive or insulting statement in this thread. Interesting huh?

So when you sell your Camaro, even if you are forced to because of a financial crisis, will you leave this forum for good? That's what you suggest be accepted as the rule; or do you just want anyone that likes any vehicle more than the Camaro to be banned? What about Camaro owners that have Mustangs, or Camaro owners that like the Corvette, or the m3 or the s5 more than the Camaro, but can't quite afford one? Should they stop posting as well?

I have a feeling you will resort to insults and name-calling, but I thought I would finish my input before it is brought to that.

[305pride]

i hate the mustang mega thread. its so unorganized and you cant get any information in all that clutter. kinda funny to have one section dedicated to mustangs in the first place.

[WiccaJew]

I think the mega mustang thread is there because things are posted ten times. You are completely wrong if you think that other forums have posts every single day about how bad the mustang is on the forums. I am on mustangforums.com and I do not post like a troll every single second. I think the mega mustang is necessary because people post the same thread 20 times. I have been on the mustang forums for a while and never see anything like this. I posted on the mustang forums and still do every once in a while but I never rip on the mustang or tell about how crappy i think it is. I understand its fun to post about mustang vs camaro, but its not necessary to post a thread 20 times. I don't even enjoy posting on the mustang forums that much, because I own a CAMARO, and I want to learn more about it. Some mustang owners are great on this forum and they contribute a lot, but most are just trolls. If you have one post and post about how horrible the camaro is your a troll end of story. I have been banned from allfordmustangs.com for posting about my camaro and how much faster it was than a 10 mustang when they were first out. Get over it. Its a camaro forum. The mods are a lot nicer here then a lot of forums. My local forum when i was in New Mexico would kick anyone that was causing any type of problems with the majority on the site.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

The only forums you can go to that don't have plenty of other vehicle owners are the least informed, most embarrassing car forums you will ever see.

Everyone one I've seen has been nothing but rabid fanboys talking past each other and turning every thread into a competition about who can be more blatantly offensive. They're way more embarassing than this forum.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

It's almost necessary to have owners of different vehicles that respect the rules and at least enjoy the vehicle that is the subject of the forum. If you had a site made up of pure Camaro drivers, you would have almost zero information about the competition and there are also quite a few posters with valuable input on Camaro tech and info that own other vehicles.

Early last year there were very few Camaro haters on these forums yet, and the quality of the content in the other cars and Camaro vs. sections were about 100 times better than the drivel that most of the threads there get reduced to now. Or are you proud of the Camaro vs. section of this forum now? I think it's crap now, and you seem to be fighting for it to stay crappy.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

If you go to the mustang forums, you will see tons of ls1 owners with 5,000+ posts. If you go to the chevy cobalt forums there are a multitude of various types of vehicle owners. As long as their input is respectful and they actually have an interest in the subject vehicle, it's very valuable. Without it, the forum would probably think the fastest 5.0s are going 13.0@109 and picks up 5hp max from bolt-ons. When you have a single-minded crowd you collect and accept extremely bias information as well as opinions.

There's a multitude of different car owners here too, who also happen to be Camaro enthusiasts. Anybody can be an enthusiast. Enthusiasts aren't the problem, trolls are. You'll continue to be dissappointed with the mods until you realize that.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

This is a forum for discussion and more specifically, the other vehicles section. Let the people that know more about mustangs than you have their input, as you should with any other vehicle discussed. Hell, half the mustang owners used to own camaros or at least cross-shopped them. As you said yourself, why would you want information and opinions about the new mustang from a bunch of people that have never driven or probably even sat in one?

Get real. Most of the Mustang posters who post here are way more willfully ignorant than any of our members. But prove me wrong, see if you can get one of them to write up an honest post about an independent rear suspension, and it's benefits. If that's too hard, pick any other common car component (sunroof, or whatever) that isn't available on this year's Mustang. I've been trying for weeks now; nothing. "Solid rear axle, it's not that bad on a clean track" and "solid rear axles, they're better at the quarter mile" are about the only responses I've gotten. So much for the "car enthusiast" reasoning.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

Most Camaro enthusiasts are banned/suspended long before they behave as bad as most of you guys.

Pure fantasy. I can think of several forums right now where they don't have the issues we see here but which virtually never ban anybody except for truly bad behavior, and bad behavior does not mean not cheering for the home team. I hear this same comment frequently on a couple GM forums, one Mustang forum, and a few import forums and the consistent thread between them is that it just isn't true.