[newmoon]

Originally Posted by hotlap

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...t-test-review/

Thank you for posting this I had not seen it. The most shocking bit of info I see there is the poor 0-60 mph times for the PP2. 4.3 seconds seems slow. in comparison the old Boss and present 1LE both have 4.0, there has to be some programming hindering the manual GTs.

This article cleary states that while ground has been made up in comparison to the 1LE its not quite there yet. But back to my original point. Look at what essentially a set of tires has done to improve the performance over a PP1.

[Laststandard]

The real question is how much farther can they take the S550 chassis, with it rumored to be sticking around till 2025-2026?

[shaffe]

Holy crap this place blows up when I am not around to keep the peace

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Wheels are rotational weight. So a small weight difference improves exponentially.

The GT350R getting run down in the straights proves that Ford did a terrible job or was foolhardy in their decision to build a car like the GT350(R). That is Ford's fault. And it proves that a track car will always get beat by a car that is simply better built. GM went to extra lengths in building the ZL1. It is a well balanced machine. More so than anything Ford has. Sure it made compromises to negate the extra weight and such. But end of the day it proved to be a superior car.

I was going to respond to this but you basically said what I was going to say a little later on you were just a little harsher lol. So I'll touch on this later this post.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You all sound silly calling the ZL1 a "Grand Tourer" or "Touring Edition" car. We all know the ZL1 is a much more track focused car than the 13/14 GT500 ever was.

The ZL1 is most definitely a GT style car. Comfort, fast, does a little bit of everything well while not soley focused on 1 area. That is a full on GT car IMO.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Dude you exaggerate way to damn much. I never said anything about it in response to the 6th Gen ZL1. I said it was stupid to build a car like the GT350(R)...PERIOD. Those of us who have been discussing this long before you showed up have all come to the conclusion that Ford made a huge mistake taking on the outgoing Z28 with the 6th Gen Mustang. The were fighting backwards instead of anticipating what GM would do next. Which landed Frod with a GT350 that matched or beat the 15 Z28 (in it's last year of production) which then turned into the SS showing up in the next year matching the 15 Z28 and thus keeping up with the Shelby. Nothing I said had anything to do with the ZL1 except for the fact that at the same price the Shelby gets it's ass kicked. That is Ford's fault. Even shaffe agreed that it was stupid as hell of Ford and very short sighted to go after the Z28.

And either way, what do you care? You don't even have a Shelby. It shouldn't matter to you what I think of the car anyway.

The 5th Gen Z28 was 12.2 in the quarter just like the 5th Gen ZL1 was. But the Z28 was superior around a track. The 6th Gen ZL1 was not $20K cheaper. So what are you even talking about??

So yes and no. Yes it as we sit here in 2019 it was dumb of Ford to target the 2015 Z/28 with the GT350 that came out at the end of 2015/early 2016. High revving NA track cars were all anyone wanted to talk about then so at the time it made sense.

We have since seen that the regular V-8 versions when equipped with track packs(which is taking everything they have learned from those specialty cars) can come close to offering almost the same performance as the dedicated "track cars". The SS 1LE is basically 5th gen Z/28 performance levels. The GT PP2 is nipping at the heels of the GT350(while still behind the R). Had Ford put proper cooling on the PP2 it would be a great track package. The SS 1LE is an amazing track package.

This leads me to believe that as I have said many times before the GT350 should have been put out to pasture in the 2018. Maybe even 2017.

Also this is probably the reason there is no 6th gen Z/28. besides the fact they have no engine to borrow, It probably would not out perform the ZL1 and most definitely not the ZLE. With the "GT" style cars(ZL1 upcoming GT500 presumably) as fast and as good as they are a dedicated NA track car like the 5th gen Z/28 and GT350R don't have a place in the line up anymore.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yes. Power isn’t the deciding factor and the 2014 Z28 to GT500 comparison is meant to make that point.

For the record. I never speak about the upcoming GT500 vs ZL1 other than to make this point because Ford fans want it both ways.

I expect the GT500 TP to best the ZLE. They delayed the GT500 specifically to do so. Let hope it isn’t a half ass engineering solution like the PP2

I don't think the GT500 will be half assed like the PP2. Rereading the press release looks like they took a page out of the GM playbook and put a major emphasis on cooling

Originally Posted by hotlap

FYI - the gen5 Z/28 was only 13 pounds lighter than the GT500. As our Ford friends liked to point out, the gen5 was a big, heavy girl. Engineering made the later years achieve

I thought it was more than that. I must have gotten my weights mixed up with the Z/28 being much lighter than the ZL1

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think the GT500 got delayed more so because Ford was spread too thin. And I'm betting there were lots of issues with the GT500 that they had to address and are still trying to fix. I think Ford has run out of time and it will be half-finished when it does come out. I think they will focus on staying close but they won't win. Or they will try to beat/match the Redeye and forget about trying to beat the ZLE.

If you follow the breadcrumbs and rumors it could be any number of things. I think one of the first rumors I heard was they wanted to go twin turbos with an ecoboost V-8 but ran into packaging issues (to pass OEM crash guidelines or something) Then there was the A10 and then I think the last one was waiting for the DCT to be ready. Oh yeah and then I am sure with the ZL1 and ZLE being as good as they are they went back to drawing board a bit to make some extra effort. If I had to guess, they wanted the GT500 out in 18. That is why the GT350 got pretty much 0 of the updates the rest of mustang line got. It was literally a carry over model year. Then when the 500 still wasn't ready they made a few tweaks to the 350 but still left it virtually unchanged.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem with the GT500 is that it has features that are not shared with other vehicles. The RE MSRP base is low but when you think about it, that is just a modded Hellcat with a modded Hellcat drivetrain. The GT500 will have a completely different drivetrain, an all new engine, and a bunch of features even on the base model. No way in hell it will be under $70K. Not for a 700+ HP car.

The GT350 and R both had features not shared with any other mustang. 5.2L Voodoo, tremec trans, all the sheetmetal and everything in front of the A pillar was unique to the GT350, carbon fiber wheels and yet they still managed to undercut the outgoing Z/28 by 12 grand.

You may very well be right, I am just saying I think Ford knows where this car needs to fall in the MSRP range.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Now on the other hand, the GT350R IS well over $20K more expensive than the GT. And the GT* beats the GT350R by 2 tenths at least. Those are also facts.

.

Fixed it for ya hahaha *hotlap special lol.

The GT350R still beats the M6 equipped Mustang GT by almost a half second lol.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Agreed an entirely different drivetrain will drive up the price. I still think 80-85k.

Originally Posted by Laststandard

The real question is how much farther can they take the S550 chassis, with it rumored to be sticking around till 2025-2026?

I have a feeling the GT500 will be the last hurrah for the S550. I mean we live in an age of 650, 700+ and 797 hp cars.. How much further can anyone really take them lol

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The GT350R still beats the M6 equipped Mustang GT by almost a half second lol.

LOL, what doesnt beat the M6 GT in a 1/4 mile race?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

LOL, what doesnt beat the M6 GT in a 1/4 mile race?

A differently optioned M6 GT hahaha

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

We are very shortly going to find out how magic the 6th Gen ZL1 is once the 500 is introduced and there is no more huge power advantage, let's see how it fares with a 100+hp deficit.

We already found out how magic the 6th Gen 1LE was once the GT finally got a set of tires under it with the PP2, the magic chassis was slower.

The magic chassis was slower huh lol. They were not tested together, besides said lighting lap where has the pp2 beaten the 1le? It only beats it in overheating and not actually being track capable despite wearing psc2's. You can't mean 0-60 or 1/4 because the 1le is faster there as well.

The "magic chassis" also does more than hold it's own against Ford's actual track cars gt350/gt350r despite being down 70ish hp and it doesn't need psc2's to do it either.

Saying the pp2 is a faster track car than the 1le really exposes your fanaticism and makes some of your more valid arguments lose credibility.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Ford beat the 5th gen Camaro bests - Z28 bested by the GT350R (both in acceleration and around a track, for substantially less MSRP, btw) and the 5th gen ZL1 with the '13 GT500 (at least in a straight line). I would not be surprised if Ford bests the 6th gen Camaro's best with this car. ZLE will be a tough act to beat but, it can be done. We're all assuming, I think, that the GT500 will beat it on the strip. The GT350R is already nipping on the 6th gen ZL1's heels around a track based on H2H (with a massive hp and torque disadvantage, btw. The ZL1 has 50% more peak torque than the R). Ford has said the GT500 (not sure base or track pack) will be substantially faster than the R.

GM will eventually come out with a car that bests the GT500 and the tables will turn. That is how the game is played.

I'm not sure GM will answer with a higher level Camaro. Maybe, but I think they're comfortable already having a car that should beat the gt500 in the Corvette zr1. If the gt500 is so good that it beats the zr1 then maybe they'll need some sort of direct answer for that or just wait for higher specs of the next gen Camaro or c8 Vette.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The magic chassis was slower huh lol. They were not tested together, besides said lighting lap where has the pp2 beaten the 1le? It only beats it in overheating and not actually being track capable despite wearing psc2's. You can't mean 0-60 or 1/4 because the 1le is faster there as well.

The "magic chassis" also does more than hold it's own against Ford's actual track cars gt350/gt350r despite being down 70ish hp and it doesn't need psc2's to do it either.

Saying the pp2 is a faster track car than the 1le really exposes your fanaticism and makes some of your more valid arguments lose credibility.

Ok let's look at this. Do you have a H2H same day between 1LE vs PP2 or any GT350? You and others want to discount the LL results for the PP2 because it wasn't same day yet refer to other non H2H results which also were not same day. Which way is it? Or once again do reviews favorable to the Camaro only count.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

It's not literally the definition, otherwise the dictionary would say Camaro ZL1. People have forgotten how to use the word literally in our society. On the surface, you're right that the ZL1 meets the intent of that definition (fast, 2+2, can be used on a long trip, etc.). The caveat is that the 6th gen ZL1 always had a great track prowess in mind during development and engineering, more so than what most people think of when thinking of a traditional grand tourer.

Again, that is not accurate at all. The GT came about as a result of folks like Ferrari selling race cars that are street legal. Ferrari wanted to race, but needed to sell cars for the steet for homologation. Folks who bought the Ferraris for the street complained that they sucked for long trips, the engine didn't like to run at cruising speed, the suspension was too stiff, it made too much noise, etc... SO, the GT was born. It's a sports car underneath, but with added luxuries and comfort amenities. That way the rich in Europe can take their sports car from Paris to Rome without getting out of the car feeling like they just ran the LeMans without switching drivers...

So, the ZL1 is EXACTLY a GT car. Sports car performance, but with comfort and convieneince of a cruiser.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I'm not sure GM will answer with a higher level Camaro. Maybe, but I think they're comfortable already having a car that should beat the gt500 in the Corvette zr1. If the gt500 is so good that it beats the zr1 then maybe they'll need some sort of direct answer for that or just wait for higher specs of the next gen Camaro or c8 Vette.

I don't think they will answer if the GT500 bests the ZL1. If they do it will be by stuffing the LT5 in the Camaro but I think that will remain a corvette exclusive as all other ZR-1 engines have.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Again, that is not accurate at all. The GT came about as a result of folks like Ferrari selling race cars that are street legal. Ferrari wanted to race, but needed to sell cars for the steet for homologation. Folks who bought the Ferraris for the street complained that they sucked for long trips, the engine didn't like to run at cruising speed, the suspension was too stiff, it made too much noise, etc... SO, the GT was born. It's a sports car underneath, but with added luxuries and comfort amenities. That way the rich in Europe can take their sports car from Paris to Rome without getting out of the car feeling like they just ran the LeMans without switching drivers...

So, the ZL1 is EXACTLY a GT car. Sports car performance, but with comfort and convieneince of a cruiser.

This ^ The ZL1 is about as GT style as it gets lol.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The magic chassis was slower huh lol. They were not tested together, besides said lighting lap where has the pp2 beaten the 1le? It only beats it in overheating and not actually being track capable despite wearing psc2's. You can't mean 0-60 or 1/4 because the 1le is faster there as well.

The "magic chassis" also does more than hold it's own against Ford's actual track cars gt350/gt350r despite being down 70ish hp and it doesn't need psc2's to do it either.

Saying the pp2 is a faster track car than the 1le really exposes your fanaticism and makes some of your more valid arguments lose credibility.

These last few pages have not been good for the Ford Fandum at all, their arguments are getting thin and they are running out of straws to grasp at.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Thank you for posting this I had not seen it. The most shocking bit of info I see there is the poor 0-60 mph times for the PP2. 4.3 seconds seems slow. in comparison the old Boss and present 1LE both have 4.0, there has to be some programming hindering the manual GTs.

This article cleary states that while ground has been made up in comparison to the 1LE its not quite there yet. But back to my original point. Look at what essentially a set of tires has done to improve the performance over a PP1.

Really? The most shocking thing about that article is the 0-60 times?

What is most shocking to me, is that the PP2 was a second attempt at a performance pack by Ford because the PP1 got COMPLETELY HAMMERED in reviews because it sucked so bad. That car was flopping over on itself like a fish in the bottom of a boat, and not only did the reviewers harshly critisize this, you can clearly see it in the videos. This is not an opnion, it's a fact.

Now the PP2 came out with bigger sways, faster springs, reprogramed Magneride, beter tires, etc., and I thought this would settle the car down like the GT350. I knew that Ford COULD do it becuase they set up the GT350 and the previous gen BOSS very well.

But, I was let down. This article shows that they did another half-@ssed job again. The car is not totally settled down, the MagneRide is still not tuned right, the steering was off (it doesn't even have variable ratio steering, and entry is a problem), and as a result, sounds like you have to fight the thing the whole time to try to stay on your line on the track. Randy's comments are very revealing.

Now, from the Ford camp, all we have heard is "well, it's performance pack, not a track pack, so it's made more for the street than the track". EXCEPT, the gap only widens on the street. Did you see what all the reivewers said about how it drove on the street comapred to the 1LE? It was a disaster of a suspension setup because you are constantly fighting the car to keep in on your line.

And let's not get started about the overheating issue (why put track tires on a suppposedly non-track car, then take it to the track and brag about track times, but not put coolers on it).

The PP2 is a complete failure from a consumer perspective. From Ford's perspecetive, it was great. They got a good lap time from sticky tires, and didn't have to spend much development money doing it. And the Ford sheeple will buy that crap up because of said lap time and cool unique style wheels...

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Ok let's look at this. Do you have a H2H same day between 1LE vs PP2 or any GT350? You and others want to discount the LL results for the PP2 because it wasn't same day yet refer to other non H2H results which also were not same day. Which way is it? Or once again do reviews favorable to the Camaro only count.

I'll admit I was surprised by the LL results the PP2 was able to put down. I would rather have coolers than Cup2s though..

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Ok let's look at this. Do you have a H2H same day between 1LE vs PP2 or any GT350? You and others want to discount the LL results for the PP2 because it wasn't same day yet refer to other non H2H results which also were not same day. Which way is it? Or once again do reviews favorable to the Camaro only count.

So far there hasn't been a direct comparison you ask about, but MotorTrend throughly evaluated the PP2 with the 1LE in mind in the article linked above. Here is there conclusion:

This bout, however, again goes to the Bowtie Brigade. Although the Mustang GT PP2 tipped the scales 34 pounds under the PP1 Mustang, there's still another 94 to go to reach the lighter 3,735-pound Camaro SS 1LE. Weight is not the only factor, though. The new Performance Package Level 2, with the addition of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, indeed helped its performance, gaining grip for better launches, shortened braking distances, and greater lateral-g loads in corners. However, those tires also hindered its everyday drivability and fingertip control on fun roads. And even though the track-tuned suspension worked well on a track, it was far less settled on real roads. Randy Pobst's Laguna Seca lap times were less than a second apart, but in his analysis, the Ford's performance and behavior still had room for improvement. The 2018 Ford Mustang GT PP2 is, indeed, the best Mustang GT ever. However, with outright wins in acceleration, figure eight, skidpad lateral-g average, a Laguna Seca lap time, as well as the unanimously favorable subjective analysis from our staff and Randy Pobst, the Camaro SS 1LE is still the best all-around pony car available—but by a narrower margin this time.