[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

So the TL;DR version is, Ford made the PP2 to compete against the 2SS Camaro and left the GT350 to deal with the 1LE?

It can't even compete with the regular SS because the SS still has the necessary cooling to do track sessions. It looks like the PP2 will be a better performing car than the SS for a lap or two, but that's about it.



It seems to be Ford's MO. The previous GT500 had impressive performance, but it couldn't maintain it because the brakes would overheat after 1-2 laps.

[Eldi Z]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I really don't want to make this into a Ford vs Chevy (Mustang vs Camaro) business case and sales thread, but I want to make one point that seems to constantly be over-looked in that subject: livability

The Mustang is a more livable vehicle. That is, it is an easier car, and more versatile car, to owning for the average consumer. I will put money on it has nothing to do with the performance stuff. Chevy, although I love the 6th Gen, lost out in not making visibility better, instead perusing form over function, and not putting more consideration into usage of the trunk, the back seat and main seat cargo. These are all areas the average consumer cares more about.

The Camaro is the better performance car. Unfortunately, it is not the better car to live with. I have another vehicle, so, for me, it is not a big deal and the performance of this car is something, to me, worth the compromise. Really, the Camaro, as of now, is like a mini Corvette. End of story. Maybe that's Chevy's business case? Who knows.

The lesser sales have nothing at all to do with performance.

Face the facts, the kids of today care less and less about this kind of stuff. They are more into the emotion of things and less into the... "involvement" of things.

I will say that, the enabling of what the Camaro brings, does seem to bring people who haven't before partaken in performance driving to then do so.

[Look around at Mustang drivers: not the guys at cars & coffee, crusies, track events or the drag strip. Check out the ones on your way to work. Driving to the grocery store. At parks and schools. Case in point, when I was in one of my first Mustangs, I used to stuff a mountain bike in the back, along with gear. You cannot do that with the Camaro]

Nevertheless, you have to realize this:
A car like this, the 6th Gen Camaro, and cars like the GT350, true & capable "value performance vehicles", are ones of rarity and not likely to be around very long...

Every word here, I am in complete agreement. A good friend of mine just got his GT Premium Automatic 2 weeks ago and all of the above checks out 100%.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I really don't want to make this into a Ford vs Chevy (Mustang vs Camaro) business case and sales thread, but I want to make one point that seems to constantly be over-looked in that subject: livability

The Mustang is a more livable vehicle. That is, it is an easier car, and more versatile car, to owning for the average consumer. I will put money on it has nothing to do with the performance stuff. Chevy, although I love the 6th Gen, lost out in not making visibility better, instead perusing form over function, and not putting more consideration into usage of the trunk, the back seat and main seat cargo. These are all areas the average consumer cares more about.

The Camaro is the better performance car. Unfortunately, it is not the better car to live with. I have another vehicle, so, for me, it is not a big deal and the performance of this car is something, to me, worth the compromise. Really, the Camaro, as of now, is like a mini Corvette. End of story. Maybe that's Chevy's business case? Who knows.

The lesser sales have nothing at all to do with performance.

Face the facts, the kids of today care less and less about this kind of stuff. They are more into the emotion of things and less into the... "involvement" of things.

I will say that, the enabling of what the Camaro brings, does seem to bring people who haven't before partaken in performance driving to then do so.

[Look around at Mustang drivers: not the guys at cars & coffee, crusies, track events or the drag strip. Check out the ones on your way to work. Driving to the grocery store. At parks and schools. Case in point, when I was in one of my first Mustangs, I used to stuff a mountain bike in the back, along with gear. You cannot do that with the Camaro]

Nevertheless, you have to realize this:
A car like this, the 6th Gen Camaro, and cars like the GT350, true & capable "value performance vehicles", are ones of rarity and not likely to be around very long...

I agree with 99.5% of this. The other 0.5%? Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I agree with 99.5% of this. The other 0.5%? Where there's a will, there's a way.

That’s an option.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I really don't want to make this into a Ford vs Chevy (Mustang vs Camaro) business case and sales thread, but I want to make one point that seems to constantly be over-looked in that subject: livability

The Mustang is a more livable vehicle. That is, it is an easier car, and more versatile car, to owning for the average consumer. I will put money on it has nothing to do with the performance stuff. Chevy, although I love the 6th Gen, lost out in not making visibility better, instead perusing form over function, and not putting more consideration into usage of the trunk, the back seat and main seat cargo. These are all areas the average consumer cares more about.

The Camaro is the better performance car. Unfortunately, it is not the better car to live with. I have another vehicle, so, for me, it is not a big deal and the performance of this car is something, to me, worth the compromise. Really, the Camaro, as of now, is like a mini Corvette. End of story. Maybe that's Chevy's business case? Who knows.

The lesser sales have nothing at all to do with performance.

Face the facts, the kids of today care less and less about this kind of stuff. They are more into the emotion of things and less into the... "involvement" of things.

I will say that, the enabling of what the Camaro brings, does seem to bring people who haven't before partaken in performance driving to then do so.

[Look around at Mustang drivers: not the guys at cars & coffee, crusies, track events or the drag strip. Check out the ones on your way to work. Driving to the grocery store. At parks and schools. Case in point, when I was in one of my first Mustangs, I used to stuff a mountain bike in the back, along with gear. You cannot do that with the Camaro]

Nevertheless, you have to realize this:
A car like this, the 6th Gen Camaro, and cars like the GT350, true & capable "value performance vehicles", are ones of rarity and not likely to be around very long...

Agreed. Also the Camaro had a bit higher base price too. But the performance has been stellar and so is performance per dollar ratio, so it can't be those causing the sales issue.

Wonder how this story line bodes for the upcoming rumored mid-engine Corvette? Mid-engine cars aren't known for their ergonomic capabilities typically. But the way Chevy has been doing performance, I'm going to bet it will be a beast in the high-po versions. But who knows, perhaps the packaging will be good.

Does anyone see foreshadowing here?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

That isn't at all the point I'm making. The point is that Ford is making what people want, and people are lining up to pay more than what Ford thinks it is worth.

GM is making a technically better product and we're getting 4-7K off MSRP.

And that says pretty much all it needs to say about the market we are in.

Id completely disageee with this: 33% fewer folks line up to buy a Mustang vs 2016 sales. Mustang sales have tanked the MOST of all three pony cars percentage wise. Actually, Challenger continues to hold its own and has posted modest gains bucking the trend.

As to gt350 i would guess the mark ups were there when the car first came out and fanbois rushed in. But not any more and there are still unsold 2017s on the lots even with discounts offered.

Overall this segment is a tiny niche in comparison to what vehicles bring big profits for the three manufacturers.

Regardless of the pony car future, kudos to GM for building true sports cars without compromises. And then standing behind them warranty wise.

[S2K+1LE]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Id completely disageee with this: 33% fewer folks line up to buy a Mustang vs 2016 sales. Mustang sales have tanked the MOST of all three pony cars percentage wise. Actually, Challenger continues to hold its own and has posted modest gains bucking the trend.

As to gt350 i would guess the mark ups were there when the car first came out and fanbois rushed in. But not any more and there are still unsold 2017s on the lots even with discounts offered.

Overall this segment is a tiny niche in comparison to what vehicles bring big profits for the three manufacturers.

Regardless of the pony car future, kudos to GM for building true sports cars without compromises. And then standing behind them warranty wise.

You need to understand that you are "completely disagree" with what I'm saying by turning it into a completely different discussion.

At no point did I make a YoY comparison, as you can tell ALL the brands sales are down and all CAR sales in general. Seen midsize sedan sales lately?

What I said, which you can disagree with all you'd like but you'd be disagreeing with facts... Ford can make a product that people line up to pay over MSRP for while GM makes a technically better product and has to discount off of MSRP. TF does that have to do with YoY comparisons? Nada. Point stands.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

You need to understand that you are "completely disagree" with what I'm saying by turning it into a completely different discussion.

At no point did I make a YoY comparison, as you can tell ALL the brands sales are down and all CAR sales in general. Seen midsize sedan sales lately?

What I said, which you can disagree with all you'd like but you'd be disagreeing with facts... Ford can make a product that people line up to pay over MSRP for while GM makes a technically better product and has to discount off of MSRP. TF does that have to do with YoY comparisons? Nada. Point stands.

Well my point was simple: if folks were lining up to buy Mustangs and Ford was able to sell them over msrp due to high demand then their sales numbers would not have crashed by a third. When z06 first came out folks were willing to pay premiums as well. So this is not just a Ford phenomenon at all. As to a general mill Mustang, not aware of anyone paying any premiums over msrp ever.
Gt350 a different story because Shelby. But that is old news now and no longer applies. But will no doubt apply soon because new gt500. And ditto c8. Etc.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Regardless of the pony car future, kudos to GM for building true sports cars without compromises. And then standing behind them warranty wise.

Quite the opposite, GM built performance cars with TOO MANY compromises, that's why sales are hurting compared to the Mustang.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

Quite the opposite, GM built performance cars with TOO MANY compromises, that's why sales are hurting compared to the Mustang.

List the compromises in regards to a “true” (thorough) sports car.

Also, go read the past two pages as this was discussed.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

Quite the opposite, GM built performance cars with TOO MANY compromises, that's why sales are hurting compared to the Mustang.

If the point your making is because GM put best in segment performance as a top priority, (and not best in segment sales #s) then yeah they made compromises. Ford doesn't make it as high a priority, and hence, the reason for this thread. But, the biggest thing that turns people away from the Camaro is the short windows/visibility. But GM stated that in order to have the unique styling, the short windows had to stay. And that statement also applied to the Gen 6. For myself, I never had a problem with the outward visibility in my Gen 5, but as many today's cars also exhibit, the rearward visibility is is no very good. The first time I drove a Gen 5, the visibility (or lack off) did not jump out at me.

It can be argued that there are many factors as to why Gen 6 sales are not like the Gen 5 sales, which generally eclipsed Mustang sales. One is because the Gen 6 looks too much like the Gen 5. GM responded with the very different Gen 6 refresh. Otherwise, The Gen 6 is leaps and bounds better than the Gen 5.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

If the point your making is because GM put best in segment performance as a top priority, (and not best in segment sales #s) then yeah they made compromises. Ford doesn't make it as high a priority, and hence, the reason for this thread. But, the biggest thing that turns people away from the Camaro is the short windows/visibility. But GM stated that in order to have the unique styling, the short windows had to stay. And that statement also applied to the Gen 6. For myself, I never had a problem with the outward visibility in my Gen 5, but as many today's cars also exhibit, the rearward visibility is is no very good. The first time I drove a Gen 5, the visibility (or lack off) did not jump out at me.

It can be argued that there are many factors as to why Gen 6 sales are not like the Gen 5 sales, which generally eclipsed Mustang sales. One is because the Gen 6 looks too much like the Gen 5. GM responded with the very different Gen 6 refresh. Otherwise, The Gen 6 is leaps and bounds better than the Gen 5.

I don't buy the visibility concern as the big reason because the 5th gen had the same issues and it sold like hot cakes.

[Bosse'sBoss]

I used to have a '11 Mustang GT 5.0 track packaged, I tracked my car greatly along euro sport cars at my local PCA, the only issue I had, was that I boiled my brembo's brake fluid while keeping up h2h with a BMW M3 V8. But now is completely ridiculous from Ford to sell Mustangs with Cup tires as a PP2 package, getting their cars overheated and not backing up their cars because they aren't track ready. What a big joke. Good think I switched to GM first with a beautiful 5th gen Camaro ZL1, awsome car, and now with my '14 Stingray Z51. No looking back to Ford.

[apexit53]

Im just going to say this...

Its taken ford three different packages to beat the camaro, and it hasnt.

The PP1, no chance

The PP2, issues labeled here

GT350, comes close but performance per dollar the 1LE wins.